Swale vs. Pheedno (preferably Mods and Vets only)

[Beefkake31]

Ok guys this thread is concerning Swale's and Pheedno's views on using an AI during PCT more specifically Arimidex. I, to put it frankly, have been going crazy trying to figure out which way to go. Now Swale (who is a Doctor) says this which I am quoting from his post. I only put the important paragraph of a long post.

My PCT Protocol by SWALE

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I like Arimidex during the cycle (in fact, consider use of an AI while taking aromatisables a necessity) but it ABSOLUTELY should not be used post cycle (even though it has been shown to increase LH production) because the risk of driving estrogen too low, and therefore further damaging an already compromised Lipid Profile, is too great (this also drives libido back into the ground—and we don’t want that, do we?).

And Pheedno who is another very respected member has this post which was made a sticky and also not the whole post just what applies to this situation at hand.

My post cycle therapy consists of a three compound administration which is designed so that there is a primary and secondary LH stimulator which both are maximizing potential early in the duration; with the primary being phased out in extended protocol. With the addition of an Aromatase Inhibitor, which makes the above possible, the individual will also endure less of an increase in Sex Hormone Binding Globulin, which allows free testosterone levels to reach base line at a much quicker pace. The individual will also see less of a problem in most cases with sexual libido as the bounding SHBG is controlled(to an extent). Below you will find my suggested bare minimum, as well as a sample of an extended protocol. Extended PCT protcol is cycle length dependant so the below is not the standard for all cycles


PCT for cycles 8-16wks:
Day 1-30- .25mg L-dex + 100mg Clomid + 20mg Nolva

Extended protocol sample for a 12+ month cycle:
Day 1-15_ .25mg L-dex + 100mg Clomid + 20mg Nolva
Day 16-45_.25mg L-dex + 75mg Clomid + 20mg Nolva
Day 46-65_.25mg L-dex + 20mg Nolva
Day 66-80_.25mg L-dex


Arimidex(or L-dex)
Estrogen is the main inhibitence of restoring HPTA, and AI administration has been shown to increase gonadotrophin concentrations and serum Testosterone by up to 50%. In addition, by adding L-dex, the inhibitence of excess estrogen allows Tamox to work greater at LH stimulation in the begining stages of PCT, since the need to prevent binding in the mammery is lessened by the reduction in estrogen biosynthesis

So I see two opposing views on this from 2 respected members. What is going on here? I have seen many people agree with one or the other, never only one so it is pretty even. There is only one right answer and I would like to see the mods and vets have a discussion about this and get a clear answer for us all in the future of cycling, I think this is an important issue at hand.

[diesel578]

big bump for this one, I have always wondered this myself, don't know why any mods or vets have not replied to this one, this is an important issue, come on guys

Good question..

[BDTR]

I've gone with both theories, and although the swales method works well and is probably a little "safer" in terms of lipids, i still prefer pheedno's method.

[Beefkake31]

I've gone with both theories, and although the swales method works well and is probably a little "safer" in terms of lipids, i still prefer pheedno's method.

Thanks for the input B, I want to see what some other mods and vets think and what their experiences are with this also. I hope some mods and vets do reply, but I'm really guessing they don't know which way to go either . The way Swale says it is ABSOLUTELY (with caps lock lol) wrong to run Arimidex for pct scares me. On the other hand Pheedno's sounds so logical also.

I think we need Swale and Pheedno to come into this thread and start arguing their points and we might get somewhere .

Oh and when you say in terms of lipids Swales is better and in terms of the estrogen rebound thing, what is the worst that can happen? As in if I do run the Arimidex all the way through and when Swale says "because the risk of driving estrogen too low, and therefore further damaging an already compromised Lipid Profile, is too great." What exactly does he mean? What actually happens to you?

[spywizard]

Sorry.. i'd love to help... but i've only been around a couple of years on the boards, although i mod at a couple ofther sites, and get alot of different imputs, you probably don't care.. I agree with BDTR, you get different results, but pheedno's is the one i follow, but i've only run 4 cycles now..

[TheMudMan]

It has been shown in many studies that aromatase inhibitors such as arimidex, letro.... have been proven to help patients with low test get them back to an acceptable range.

At PCT time I'm more worried about recovering HPTA fuctions quickly rather then my lipid profile.......... but at the same time I'm also using Nolvadex to help with the problem of an AI causing a negative effect on my lipids.

I have done done PCT with Clomid/Nolva only once and Clomid/Nolva/AI/Zink/Tribulus 3 times and have always had an easier time with recovery that way. Also, I will only see a slight decrease in my sex drive durring PCT but I feel it was more from the low hormone level rather then because I was using an AI. If an AI was going to effect my sex drive I think I would see a decrease the 2 weeks prior to my cyclwhen I run my SERMS and AI and then again durring my cycle.

[Beefkake31]

Sorry.. i'd love to help... but i've only been around a couple of years on the boards, although i mod at a couple ofther sites, and get alot of different imputs, you probably don't care.. I agree with BDTR, you get different results, but pheedno's is the one i follow, but i've only run 4 cycles now..

This is the second time I have recieved this , will you guys stop taking it as an insult. SpyWizard, I can tell that you are very well informed on everything steroid related and of course I care what you tell me. Notice how on the title I put "preferably" mods and vets and not "only". I just do that so people that don't know what they are talking about won't come and give answers that they are just guessing on. I can obviously tell by your post count and join date that you've been here for a while and know your stuff. So again, I don't mean mods and vets only, just people that really know what they are talking about.

[Beefkake31]

It has been shown in many studies that aromatase inhibitors such as arimidex, letro.... have been proven to help patients with low test get them back to an acceptable range.

At PCT time I'm more worried about recovering HPTA fuctions quickly rather then my lipid profile.......... but at the same time I'm also using Nolvadex to help with the problem of an AI causing a negative effect on my lipids.

I have done done PCT with Clomid/Nolva only once and Clomid/Nolva/AI/Zink/Tribulus 3 times and have always had an easier time with recovery that way. Also, I will only see a slight decrease in my sex drive durring PCT but I feel it was more from the low hormone level rather then because I was using an AI. If an AI was going to effect my sex drive I think I would see a decrease the 2 weeks prior to my cyclwhen I run my SERMS and AI and then again durring my cycle.

Thanks MudMan very informative post. Also, when you say in terms of the lipid profile and in terms of the estrogen rebound thing, what is the worst that can happen? As in if I do run the Arimidex all the way through and when Swale says "because the risk of driving estrogen too low, and therefore further damaging an already compromised Lipid Profile, is too great." What exactly does he mean? What actually happens to you? Aside from the low sex drive.

[spywizard]

This is the second time I have recieved this , will you guys stop taking it as an insult. SpyWizard, I can tell that you are very well informed on everything steroid related and of course I care what you tell me. Notice how on the title I put "preferably" mods and vets and not "only". I just do that so people that don't know what they are talking about won't come and give answers that they are just guessing on. I can obviously tell by your post count and join date that you've been here for a while and know your stuff. So again, I don't mean mods and vets only, just people that really know what they are talking about.

hahaaaaaaaaaa.. i'm not offended man..

and dont let the post count and join date fool ya.. there are guys here that can post the crap out of me.. although my participation on this board is alot less than it used to be.. 100-200 posts per day..

1st hand experience, and medical training that alot of the mods, and vets are what is most important..

About 1-2 years ago.. newbies would ask for SwoleCat's only opinions.. and alot of bro's were offended.. no biggie..

Good questions so far..

[Beefkake31]

hahaaaaaaaaaa.. i'm not offended man..

and dont let the post count and join date fool ya.. there are guys here that can post the crap out of me.. although my participation on this board is alot less than it used to be.. 100-200 posts per day..

1st hand experience, and medical training that alot of the mods, and vets are what is most important..

About 1-2 years ago.. newbies would ask for SwoleCat's only opinions.. and alot of bro's were offended.. no biggie..

Good questions so far..

Thanks Spy, and ya as for the questions, I have a lot of post last month but I have been asking mostly important questions and have not been post whoring .

[TheMudMan]

Thanks MudMan very informative post. Also, when you say in terms of the lipid profile and in terms of the estrogen rebound thing, what is the worst that can happen? As in if I do run the Arimidex all the way through and when Swale says "because the risk of driving estrogen too low, and therefore further damaging an already compromised Lipid Profile, is too great." What exactly does he mean? What actually happens to you? Aside from the low sex drive.

With no or very little estrogen in your system HDL levels could be effected negatively......... SERMS such as raloxfine (sp) and nolvadex are able to mimic estrogen in tissue such as estrogen in the liver wich will help your HDL levels. Not everyone will be effected or effected too badly if using just an AI this is why you need to have blood work done to see if all levels are in a acceptable range........ but you can also help things out by using the appropiate drugs.

[Dude-Man]

Depends which you like, faster or safer.

[Lozgod]

I am always safety first, gains second. I would lean more towards Swales. If anyone has heart concerns they should too. If your primary concern is gains, then go with Pheedno's.

[Dude-Man]

.....jealous?

I am always safety first, gains second. I would lean more towards Swales. If anyone has heart concerns they should too. If your primary concern is gains, then go with Pheedno's.

[TheMudMan]

Depends which you like, faster or safer.

It's not a matter of which one is faster or safer.............. because both ways have thier advantages and disadvatages.......... I would rather sacrafice HDL levels for a few weeks then stay suppressed for a longer period of time..... That's just me. Also, if someone had high cholesterol or heart problems then AAS should be the last thing they want to add to thier health problems.

Also, I'm not saying Pheedno's way is correct and Swale's is wrong because both will recover HPTA in a reasonable amount of time....... but I have done both and using an AI has helped ease recovery for me over not using an AI. So in the end each person needs to decides what is best for them.

[Pheedno]

My justification for utilizing arimidex in my PCT is that I believe supressing estrogen to dangerous levels is not really a factor, considering estrogen levels Vs anastrozole dosing. The majority of AAS users are experiencing supraphysiological levels of estrogen, and with my PCT, incorporating a 1/4 of the clinical dose of arimidex.

I do think using a stronger type II such as letro would be a mistake, as i believe it to be even too strong for the average AAS user during a cycle; but unless you have an individualized adverse effect to lipids from anastrozole specifically(which should be considered), I do not think safety is a concern in respects to lipids with such a low dose of arimidex

I by no means disagree with Swales protocol. I just happen to think the risk to cholesterol is overstated in the majority, given the circumstances.

[G-1000]

nice job you did your homework

good post

[Mesomorphyl]

Everyone must understand there is a third option, fukkenshredded has a protocol... Maybe we can get him to post it up... You never know if we put all three together maybe what would work for one may not work for another. Having options and reasonings is great to find what can work for individuals.

[Lozgod]

I think the ise of HCG should be incorporated. The goal of increased LH levels is to raise test levels. HCG enlarges the testicles allowing them to make more natural testosterone. So there is an advantage to use it pre-clomid dosage.

[JohnnyB]

I am always safety first, gains second. I would lean more to wards Swales. If anyone has heart concerns they should too. If your primary concern is gains, then go with Pheedno's.

I agree safety and health should be first, one thing that has been left out of this discussion. SWALE also recommends HCG during the cycle which help you recover quicker, so I see this as safer. I don't think pheedo recommends HCG during the cycle, plus 80 days of pct, doesn't add up to faster in my book.

I think using HCG through the cycle, then using nolva at 40mg for 2 weeks, then 20mg until your sex drive is back with morning wood. I think the idea of 3 weeks of clomid or 4 weeks of nolva is to restricting and doesn't account for how people recover diffently.

JohnnyB

[Lozgod]

I think using HCG through the cycle, then using nolva at 40mg for 2 weeks, then 20mg until your sex drive is back with morning wood. I think the idea of 3 weeks of clomid or 4 weeks of nolva is to restricting and doesn't account for how people recover diffently.

JohnnyB

Jinx. We both posted about HCG at the same time.

[Pheedno]

I always incorporate HCG in cycles and advise to do so. I didn't include it in my PCT protocol as it's not PCT, it's part of the cycle

[Governor]

I am partial to jenetics PC therapy. It is in the PC therapy section of a elite if any of you care look.

[Beefkake31]

Week 1-4 Dianabol 35 mg/a day
Week 1-12 Testosterone Enthanate 500 mg/week
Week 12-14 Testosterone Propionate 100mg ed (stop 3 days before pct)
Week 4-12 HCG 250 i.u. every 2 days
Week 1-18 Arimidex .25 mg
Week 1-17 Nolvadex 10mg/a day (20mg week 14-17)
Week 14-17 Clomid 300/150/100
Week 14-17 4 g's of tribulus

As you can see, I had already incorporated the HCG into my cycle as well.

I woke up to see a lot of mods, vets, and respected members arguing their points and that was my goal. Thanks for all the input guys, I learned a bit more now and I know the benefits and side effects of going one way or the other. For now I am just going to leave it as Arimidex week 1-18, but I don't know, I still might change it. I've also maybe thought of bumping the nolvadex a little higher while on Arimidex for pct if it might help. Anyway, thanks a lot guys. Hope this helped other members a little as well.

[Lozgod]

Week 1-4 Dianabol 35 mg/a day
Week 1-12 Testosterone Enthanate 500 mg/week
Week 12-14 Testosterone Propionate 100mg ed (stop 3 days before pct)
Week 4-12 HCG 250 i.u. every 2 days
Week 1-18 Arimidex .25 mg
Week 1-17 Nolvadex 10mg/a day (20mg week 14-17)
Week 14-17 Clomid 300/150/100
Week 14-17 4 g's of tribulus

As you can see, I had already incorporated the HCG into my cycle as well.

I woke up to see a lot of mods, vets, and respected members arguing their points and that was my goal. Thanks for all the input guys, I learned a bit more now and I know the benefits and side effects of going one way or the other. For now I am just going to leave it as Arimidex week 1-18, but I don't know, I still might change it. I've also maybe thought of bumping the nolvadex a little higher while on Arimidex for pct if it might help. Anyway, thanks a lot guys. Hope this helped other members a little as well.

Overdoing HCG makes it ineffective. It would be better to do it once or twice a week, not every 2 days.

[Beefkake31]

Overdoing HCG makes it ineffective. It would be better to do it once or twice a week, not every 2 days.

I am nowhere near overdosing with my dosages. 250 i.u.'s eod I thought was below average even. Most of the people that were taking it were doing 500 i.u.'s 2 times a week which equals 1000 i.u. every 7 days. Mine comes out to 1000 i.u. every 8 days. I thought taking it eod at this low dosage would make it more stable, but I would like to know why you think I am overdosing, maybe I am missing something.

[Beefkake31]

Anyway, I am going to go with 250 i.u.'s every 3 days instead of 2 now.

[Beefkake31]

My PCT Protocol by SWALE

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I advise my AAS patients to use small amounts of HCG (250IU to 500IU) two days each week, right from the beginning of the cycle. This serves to maintain testicular form and function. It makes more sense to me to keep the horse in the barn, so to speak, then to have to chase it across three counties later on. I am also a big fan of maintaining estrogen within physiological ranges. Both therapies have been shown to hasten recovery.

If 250IU or 500IU on two days each week isn’t enough to stave off testicular atrophy, then I recommend using it more days each week (as opposed to taking larger doses). In fact, I wouldn’t mind having a guy use 250IU per day ALL THROUGH the cycle. Those that have tell me they thus avoid that edgy, burned-out feeling they usually get. They also say they simply feel better each day. Subjective reports, to be sure, but they are hard not to appreciate. Especially when HCG is so inexpensive.

I'm going to be doing 1/3 of what is in bold, so I don't think overdosing is really a possibility.

[Lozgod]

I'm going to be doing 1/3 of what is in bold, so I don't think overdosing is really a possibility.

Keep in mind this type of thing changes all the time. 2 years ago PCT consisted of 1 week of Clomid at 100mg's followed by 1 week of Clomid at 50mgs. I am not a big time scientist cycle designer, but from what I have been finding, 250i.u.'s twice a week is enough. I will try to find the studies that led me to this conclusion.

[sp9]

Just my 2 cents...I use Pheedno's method and noticed it worked better with tribulus added. I used to have a solid week of real depression, no sexual desire etc. when I throw in Tribulus I cut that dowms to 2-3 days max.