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I decided to put this in this forum since candida is a hidden diseas and we bodybuilders are a risk group for it. It can severly **** up several things, fat loss is one of them. So check your score and if its high do some reading about it.
http://pages.britishlibrary.net/lobs...dida/test.html
Senior Member
I agree 100%, i had a test run last year just for the hell of it when i was at the doctor came out negative which I thought it would. One major sign of candida i see with a lot of people esp. younger kids is "brain fog" in which their diets are bad which just feeds the candida.
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I have candida badly and its HELL to get rid of it(I have decided to get rid of it naturaly without meds). I hate it.
Im reading a very good book about it and something like 50-70% of those that has EVER run antibiotics has the agressive fungus variation of candida in there bodies. It can be the cause for many degenerative diseases.
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ya its a nasty thing for sure.
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might turn to meds if it doesnt go quickly. Right now Im taking alot of tee trea oil and grapeseed extrakt. need to start using concentrated garlic aswell. Cant get carpylic acid here in sweden and thats ****ed since its so good against it. Cant get coconut oil either that is rich in it.
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btw shred how do docs test for it? feces sample?
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thats how i thought they did it, but I only had blood taken.Originally Posted by johan
Anabolic Member
what is it???
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collar candida is a yest we all have in our digestive track. But if our bacterial fuana goets screwed(like from antibiotics, possibly other medications or poor eating habits)candida can overpower the bacteria and turn into a fungus version. It then attaches to the walls of the intestents(sp?)and spreads all through the body. It is the cause of thrush and the cause of vaginal yest infections. But those are only the visible things it causes. When it spreads it wrecks havoc on the body and can attack just about every organ.
It can also overpower good bacteria if your on a very sugar rich diet since it thrives on sugar or if you take cortisol or other catabolic medicine.
Anabolic Member
hmmm
can it cause fungus on skin
like that patches all over ur skin??
u know what talking bout hmmmmm
like what michael jackson had..
if u understand what im saying does it cause that too
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It can cause skin fungus yes but in the groin(jock itch), vagina and so on. never heard of it going to other places on the skin. Female yest infections in the vagina is candida for instance. Candida is very comon. In the vagina and tounge is the most comon. When its on the tounge is greenish white layer and the taste buds gets swollen and red.
The thing jackson has was some kind of pigmentation disease I think
Respected Member
Johan, I'll say it again.....You are one weird dude....lol! Sorry couldn't help myself, thanks for the link. BTW I kinda like jock itch, the smell is very manly to say the least!
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johan the man who brings the wierd ass points of views into the bb world
Safe to say I stumble on alot of wierd stuff when reading about alternative medicine and orthomolecular medicin. Alot that the medical community more or less ignores.
http://www.candida-society.org.uk/
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thank u dr johan
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good job spreading awareness johan but i have a few points to raise.
1. is it just me or are most of the symptoms listed on that test very generalized. i understand that candida may in some way be involved but thats difficult to ascertain. god... give that test to my girlfriend and she would score differently simply dependant upon what time of the month it is.
2. the reason for the blood test is that candida is part of the normal flora found on humans. testing feces would turn up positive more than half of the time without really providing any information whether it is in fact the source of the problem. skin a blood test determines whether the person has a more invasive form of candida infection. candidemia should not typically occur in a normal, healthy individual.
3. candida can infect virtually any part of the body and can have many manifestations but this occurs almost exclusively in immunocompromised patients (patients on immunosuppresants, cancer patients, chemo patients, AIDS patients, etc). i have yet to see a healthy individual show up in the hospital with a raging case of candidal infection. also, since jock itch was mentioned, it could potentially cause jock itch but it accounts for very few cases. the most common pathogens that cause jock itch belong to two other genera.
4. unless you have a truly symptomatic candidal infection, i would be weary to treat it with any meds without the supervision of a physician. careless use of antifungal agents is causing an increase in candidal resistance rates and patterns.
5. although candida may somehow be responsible for the "brain fog" seen in kids, i feel as though the simple fact is that it is just the poor diet that is causing the brain fog. there have been studies showing that simply eating breakfast will improve the cognitive function of school kids. also, there has been data showing that increasing dietary fat and cholesterol intake correlates to poorer measures of performance in children. this goes against the thought that a high sugar diet causes some variation of subclinical candidiasis which causes kids to act as if it was 4:20pm. i know that when i eat poorly i get foggy as well. i'd rather attribute that to the food screwing with my insulin and glucose levels rather candida albicans throwing a snickers party somewhere in my GI tract.
7. just a reminder to everyone that uses inhaled corticosteroids. WASH YOUR MOUTH.... and now repeat after me "thrush is bad... i don't like thrush.... thrush is bad... i don't like thrush".
8. patients with candidiasis may have a history of antibiotic use but it is usually antibiotics that have a broad spectrum of activity.
i read through some of the stuff on that link and i find it funny that they claim the medical community dismisses the use of antibiotics as a cause for candidal infections. especially since during my lecture a few months ago i think i repeated several times that antibiotic use can cause candidiasis.
hopefully the things i wrote makes sense. i did legs today and all the blood has left my brain. and its bedtime.
also, johan, i was curious as to why think you have a candidiasis.
as far as why the medical community ignores alternative medicine is because a lot of us are skeptics. if a rep comes to me and is bugging me that some new drug is the medical equivalent of christ, my first words to her are "show me". there are a lot of great theories out there but the bottom line is show me an impact on the patient population. this is where alternative medicine stumbles a lot. this is either through a lack of positive outcomes in their studies or a lack of studies in general. and i have heard the argument before that only the big pharma companies have the money to carry out trials. bullshit. the alternative medicine industry makes billions of dollars/year. i vaguely remember the number $4 billion as far as what kind of money the alternative medicine industry brings in/yr... and this was a number from a few years ago. the kicker is that they bring in this type of money without spending almost any on research. i don't necessarily agree with big pharma companies making the kind of money they do, but i can't fault them for the amount of cash they blow on research. for one drug to come to market, a pharma co. can spend anywhere from $500 mil to 1 bil (again... these were numbers from a few years ago, i don't have recent numbers) on research alone. and this doesn't guarantee that the drug ends up being approved by the FDA. for every drug that comes to market, there are many that didn't make it past phase II trials. with the type of money alternative medicine brings in/yr, they could get some researchers together and pump out at least a few WELL DESIGNED studies showing that what consumers are buying isn't a modern-day snake oil. perhaps they are afraid of losing their cash cow. it should be interesting to see what happens to echinacea with the most recent findings. even though i wasn't much surprised after one study cast doubt on its effectiveness a few years ago (i believe it was out of Germany... 98 or 99... sometime around there). but i digress. without clinical studies, all we're left with are theories and testimonials. although these might give us something to work with in the absence of good evidence, they should not be a replacement for well-designed studies. i don't care how many thousands of years some herb from china has been used, if it hasn't been studied, i have doubts. even in allopathic medicine theories are used. but then they are studied, and practice changes if need be. a good example is the use of lidocaine for arrhythmia prophylaxis in patients with a heart attack. for a while physicians were giving it to all patients coming in with a heart attack because it seemed to reduce the incidence of ventricular fibrillation. studies later found that the administration of lidocaine emperically actually increased mortality. this practice was then stopped. the bottom line is that if the alternative medicine industry would get their products studied the way that they should be, it wouldn't be as "alternative" as it is.
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Yes the symptoms are very general and broad since candida can cause such a variety of symptoms. I am no candida expert by far but I have read a fair shair about it written by very respected authors(Sanna Edhin world famous imunologist and others). I think the thing is if you experience a lot of very different and seemingly unrelated symptoms then candida can be the cause. If your symptoms is very related to each other then another disease might be more probable. But candida can attack most organs in the body and produce allergies(leaky gut syndrome), it produces toxin that effects brain chemistry and so on. So the symptoms are bound to be very scattered.
Cool. but just a question if doing a feces test is there any way to test the difference betwen the regular "kind" yest form or the more aggresive fungus form of candida?
Well this is the general oppinion of the medical comunity. Just a question how many have you acctualy tested for candida? Patients with chronice fatigue syndrom for instance? people with leaky gut? hypoglykemia?I think if more people got teste it would be more wide spread. The authors I have read citates studies where they have found as many as 60-70% of tested people having it. most people have awfull diet habits. That strikes a big blow against lactobacilus acidophilus and bifidobacterium bifidum and those 2 are the most important bacterias in keeping candida in its friendly form. If you then are sic and throw in antibiotics in the equation candida gets the perfect oppertunity to grow without competition. Just think about all the people on antibiotics, antibiotics in food and so on. I think in general the medical community isnt aware of this.
I agree, natural options should be used instead before a diagnosis, tea tree oil, grapeseed extract, garlic, capric acid, paul d arco and so on. They work great.4. unless you have a truly symptomatic candidal infection, i would be weary to treat it with any meds without the supervision of a physician. careless use of antifungal agents is causing an increase in candidal resistance rates and patterns.
But if they show other candida symptoms aswell like bloated stomach, itchy anus, bad breath, repetead sinus infections they should get checked for candida imo.
LOL amen to bad, god I want to get rid of mine quickly!!
Yeah I got it after a broad spectrum antibiotic treatment against sinusitis, if I had known the risk for candid was big I would never have done those antibiotics and cured the sinusitis by natural means instead.
Usualy people overexagerated. Like carharts claims that the medical community supress the vitamin c info intentionaly. In the carhart case its ignorance, in the candida case just lack of knoweledge on how widespread the phenomenon might acctualy be.
Repeted sicness, candida on my tounge(doc checked it aswell), itchy anus, jock itch, bloated stomach, 2 stomach katharrs within 3 months that both was very hard to treat(2 weeks on nexium to get rid of the pain. Doc I went to was stunned since they claim nexium should heal a bleading ulcer within days)and a host of other symptoms that have ALL become better when I started treating myself with tea tree oil and grapeseed extract, psyllium seed shells and probiotics. So either its a placebo effect or candidasis.
BTW my stomach used to NEVER bother be before, hell I could probably drink battery acid and my stomach would love me, but now after antibiotics it bothers me. So I drew my own conclusions especialy when looking at the other symptoms. And now when I have started treating the candida my stomach isnt that acidic or sensitive anymore. I also followed a diet and lifestyle that was like beging for candidasis.
Now Im going to highjack my own thread
I recomend 3 books to you(not candida related)
"Vitamin c and the comon cold" written by Linus Pauling
"Vitamin c infectious disease and toxins, curing the incurable" by Dr Thomas Levy
"Ascorbate by" steve hickey
After reading those books and if you want dubbelchecked the references then come back and tell me we dont already have a cure for many diseases we humans suffer from. I would seriously like to discuss vitamin c with a doc(Im guessing you are one?).
How do you feel about the fact that Dr Kleener in the 1940's cured 49 out of 49 polio patients with mega dosages of iv sodium ascorbate and that it has been repeated by other docs? Why is polio still listed as a uncurable disease when we have had the cure for 60 years by now?
Why do docs claim vitamin c cant cure/prevent flu when a finish study clearly showed it does.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...83&query_hl=22
(while using a dosage half of what orthomeds recomend so I guess the outcome would have been even more astonishing if they had used 20+grams/day upwards to 50g/day)
I share your sceptisicm against herbal meds, but I se vitamins and minerals as the most neglected thing by the medical comunity. You(when I use "you" from now on its as in the medial community you belong, not you in particular as a individual) seem to totaly ignore orthomolecular medicine as a whole and that is a shame since the cooperation betwen school medicin and orthomolecular medicin would mean greater health for everyone(but offcourse alot less cash for big pharm companies).
The thing that makes me sceptic about the medical community is its inability to change. Take beta caroten for instance and how evil everyone made it look after it was seen that it increases cancer risk in smokers. No suprise since beta carotene wont work alone it needs 2-3 other antioxidants to neutralise the cancer causing free radicals, take out one and beta carotene becomes harmfull instead of helpfull. This notion docs doesnt even seem to entertain they just say "its crap dont use it".
The whole way of the medical community of testing one substance at a time might be great for meds but they have to realise it doesnt work with vitamins and minerals and other natural substances since they always work in conjugation with other. I wouldnt be suprised if more negative studies gets published concerning herbs for instance since they probably isolate the one substance they think is the most important ignoring all the others that its suposed to work with.
What I find most disgusting is the inability of the medical comunity to grant funds for a major studie testing pauling and raths hypothesis about heart disease, lp(a), vitamin c and lysin. they just do bullshit studies using only vitamin c at much lower dosages then recomended, run for a short time and conclude "it doesnt work". No shit it doesnt work your not doing it like your suposed to!!! Fortunaly people are using the method on there own with great sucess.
Sorry for the rant lol just had to vent some frustration. Everything when it becomes to big becomes unflexible, the scientific and medical community is no differente. Sceptisism is very good, but beeing shut to new ideas is not(and that I find is the case with a great deal of both scientists and doc's, they wont entertain a idea if it isnt supported in the general uni educational material).
Hope you stick around buddy.
Last edited by Kärnfysikern; 07-29-2005 at 05:40 AM.
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ohh Im going to get the candida check at a doc soon. Right now I cant afford a visit but end of august Il make a apointment. I have alot of things I need to check to make myself relax.
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i like the post johan, but i need to get some sleep right now cause i'm already up 3 hours longer than i wanted to be. i'm gonna try to get the full article of that vit. c abstract. i'll be seeing you around.
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Looking forward to discussing more with you bro. Im off to work myself. Have a nice night.
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sorry about the delay johan, real life got in the way of a-r life for a little while there. i'm in the process of switching jobs so its needless to say that its been a little hectic on top of everything else.
but anyways... its late and i'll just post a quick reply to some of the points you raise.
1. i can't argue with your point that candida may cause some of those symptoms but i've yet to see some real research into how much candida accounts for people showing up with these symptoms. if all else fails, then i agree with you, it might not be so bad to check for candida. but i'm just stating the point that those symptoms could be caused by a variety of conditions and diseases and candida (imo) has not yet won the right to be part of an initial differential diagnosis. if everything else is exhausted, then i would consider broadening the laboratory testing to include the possibility for candidemia.
2. as far as i can recall, you cannot test for an invasive form of candida when testing fecal matter. the test basically looks for hyphae and pseudohyphae. to test for an invasive GI candidiasis, you'd have to do endoscopy with biopsy (if there is an ID doc on A-R please correct me if i'm wrong). probably the best way is just doing a blood test (since candida shouldn't be there) or perhaps testing for toxins produced by candida. how accurate and reliable these toxin tests are at this point, i do not know. there is definitely some research that looks promising in regards to candida toxins being linked to allergies but how much of a problem this is in humans is yet to be determined. those authors that tested and found candida in 60-70% of patients, what did they actually test? If they only tested feces, then those numbers aren't that impressive since they mimic the incidence of a positive candida test in normal, healthy individuals. now, if they were getting back blood results or biopsy results like than, then it would be impressive and a sin that the medical community has not looked into this further.
i agree with your point about the excessive use of antibiotics both in humans and animals. its crap. a product of practitioners that are lazy, afraid of lawsuits, or afraid of telling their patients to go home, drink plenty of liquids, and get some rest instead of prescribing something. i've seen too many people die in my young career from bugs that were resistant to everything we threw at them.
3. while on the topic of practitioners, why the hell is your provider giving you broad spectrum abx for sinusitis? did you fail a previous trial of abx for it? was it a very severe case? especially since the majority of sinusitis is viral and there is a high rate of spontaneous resolution.
4. if you're treating yourself and its working, might as well roll with it. the only thing of concern is the repeated sicknesses and thrush. although i'm sure from your reading, you're convinced its from the abx, i would still suggest making sure other things are normal. not to throw this around lightly or to scare you, but testing for hiv might be proper (unless your lifestyle doesn't allow for concern) or even a blood count to make sure there is nothing wrong with your leukocytes. just a thought on my part.
5. i successfully dug up the finnish study that you list. it was apparent from the abstract of the study that the study was significantly flawed. although the results are interesting, i'll list why that study does not show vitamin C as being a cure for the common cold. and if any scientist claims such, they need to go back to school and refresh their statistics and study design.
a. the test population is compared to a historical control population. this is a big problem. flu and cold strains and severity vary year to year. it is very difficult to tell how much of the decrease in symptoms was due to vitamin c, and how much is due to simple differences in the strains of the viruses. also, were there any differences in climate between the 2 years? did the patients spend more time indoors one year than the next? there is no way to determine this especially without the authors reporting it or controlling for it.
b. no use of a placebo
c. due to the authors using no placebo group, having to compare the test group to a historical control, and the differences between the reporting frequencies, they could not straight compare the two groups. instead, they had to use stastical tricks to try and get some type of comparison on a level playing field to come up with their %85.
d. the authors do not list how many of the participants were presumed to have flu, and how many were presumed to have rhinovirus. were there differences in how each group improved?
e. what were the symptoms being reported? what was the frequency of each symptom? none of this is reported. the authors simple clump it all together as "flu symptoms". these things should be divulged
f. in their discussion of the results, instead of really going in depth on their findings and potential for future research, they instead choose to blast the FDA and mainstream medicine. very poor form. this is clinical research, not an editorial.
f. bottom line is this poor study with flawed methodology. i'd love to see any scientist argue to the contrary. the authors themselves admit to the sub-par design but then continue to brush it off as if it was not that important.
g. who was this published by? a couple of chiropractics. i have nothing against any chiropractic but since these two chose to blast the FDA, i feel like raising one of my own points. chiropractors continue to use alternative medicines with the claim that they work quite well. i have a suspicion that the reason for having this viewpoint is the fact that they do not have the authority to prescribe drugs. but, the actual point want to raise is if alternative medicine works so well, and chiropractics claim to be so happy using it, why were chiropractics mobilizing in the new england area several years ago to try and secure prescribing authority. i dont know... but it just seems curious to me.
h. there might've been more points i wanted to raise but its 3am... i want to go to bed soon. in arguing for vit. c for colds, this is not a good study to cite. i need to do some more digging but i recall a study using 8 g/day of vit. c for flu symptoms and actually showing some benefite but there is also another study using 10 g/day with no apparent benefit. i'll have to try and see if i can find these
i. this goes to everyone on this board. DO NOT BASE MEDICINE ON ABSTRACTS!!!! i've been guilty of this as well in the past. but basing recommendations and suggestions solely on abstracts is poor and if a professional is doing it, it could be dangerous. johan, i see that you are bright and have a keen interest in medicine. this is great. and it is my strongest recommendation that before you pick up another book concerning medicine, you buy a good book on statistics and study design. seriously, there are tons of journal articles published that aren't worth the paper they are written on. the abstract looks great. but once you read the actual study, there are so many statistical and design flaws you wonder how they allowed it to actually be published. this goes for almost anything. i've read plenty of crap articles based on prescription drugs. its amazing that they even get put out there. i've found crap articles even in the most prestigious of journals (NJEM, JAMA, Chest). its both sad and maddening.
6. i don't find the reluctance of the medical community to test Pauling's theory disgusting at all. why should the burden of proof rest with the medical community. i feel as though it should rest with the persons making the claim. if some pharmaceutical company comes out with some drug, it can't start making claims without showing that the drug actually works. sometimes the drug isn't any better than medications currently available, but the bottom line is that they have to show that it actually works. they don't just put the drug out there and wait for physicians to do their own research. unless i'm imagining things, there are supplement companies selling combinations of products that are based on Pauling's theory. why don't they fork over the money to do some trials? in my eyes, they're making free money. also, as more time goes buy, the burden of proof will rest on those such as the Linus Pauling institute even more so. the drugs that are currently out for the treatment of hyperlipidemia have actually shown reductions in mortality which is more than can be said for vit. c + lysine. the Pauling theory is still only that.... a theory. It may very well someday be proven that it works. I won't deny that possibility. but until they get off their asses, it'll take some time. also, whenever it seems like they have a great opportunity to show something to the world, the study falls flat on its face (just like the cold/flu study above)
i personally don't consider myself closed off to new ideas. any clinician that does so is a poor one. medicine changes daily. there are constant developments. but just because someone chooses to put a patient on zocor instead of vit. c + lysine is simply based on the fact that statins have been shown to work. bottom line. if a good study with solid methodology came out tomorrow showing a similar or better mortality benefit when using pauling's concoction, i would be recommending it to everyone and their mother. its just that the difficulty in asking the physician to change on something like this might not be the physicians reluctance to change but just that there isn't enough good evidence behind the change. and for that you cannot blame them.
how do you know these people are using the method with great success? i've looked at websites and such and just find testimonies from Jon B and Ralph E. i need more than this. like i mentioned before, if you asked physicians about the benefit of lidocaine in preventing arrhythmias in MI patients, i'm sure a bunch of them would have a few anecdotal stories for you. that patient Peter F and Suzy Q didn't go into V fib after suffering an MI and receiving lidocaine. but once the data actually came out, it was shown that it did squat.
and i'm spent. i'm gonna head to bed now. oh yea, and since you raised the assumption, i have a doctorate in pharmacy, postdoctorate residency training, and will be going for my board certification exam in pharmacotherapy. i've also worked in infectious diseases/internal medicine and have lectured to college of pharmacy students, medical students, and medical residents.
and i almost forgot. on the issue of vit. c for polio, i haven't had a chance to look for the published report. i do attest that 49/49 patients being "cured" is an impressive number. but who were these patients? what variant of poliomyelitis did they have? when were they treated? what were their symptoms? poliomyelitis can have a few different manifestations. some being more severe than others. the majority of patient's symptoms resolve within about 2 weeks. even patients that became paralyzed improve as time passes. i believe less than 1% of patients stricken with paralytic poliomyelitis remain paralyzed for the remainder of their life. since there is such a high rate of resolution of symptoms, i am interested to see who were the patients that he cured.
finally, off to bed. thank you for spiking my interest on this topic, johan. i'm sure you'll have a good reply waiting for me the next time i log on. take care.
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awsome post bro. Unfortunaly its my turn to have time constrains since I am leaving for 1,5 week and wont be posting much. I will dig up the polio article. You could probably find it if you search for Fred R Kleener, vitamin c and polio. Also www.orthomed.com should have it. The page looks like a conspriacy theory site but the doc behind it(Dr Carhart cant remember first name) is respected by other vitamin c authorities.
Also if you are interested I can mail you a AWSOME book about vitamin c. Its simply called Ascorbate by I think the authors name is Steve Hickey. It can also be downloaded for 4 bucks in e-book pdf formate.
http://www.lulu.com/content/55277
well worth that tiny ammout of money. I havent finished the whole thing and its written by a vitamin c sceptic kind of, showing al the flaws in studies and what one can truly say about vitamin c. Hes conclusion however is that megadosages of ascorbic acid seems to have alot of potential and should be tried more.
The vitamin c foundation btw tried to get grant money to do a test on the pauling hypothesis and was denied funds. To bad. Hope they can raise money on alternate means. Since its a non profit orginasation I guess its hard.
Cant write more now. Il get back to this thread within a week or so.
if you can please pic up the book "vitamin c, infectious disease and toxins. Curing the incurable" written by Dr Tom Levy. Here is the first 5 chapters from the book.
http://www.tomlevymd.com/vcint.htm
http://www.tomlevymd.com/vcone.htm
http://www.tomlevymd.com/vctwo.htm
http://www.tomlevymd.com/vcthree.htm
http://www.tomlevymd.com/vcfour.htm
http://www.tomlevymd.com/vcfive.htm
I havent been able to buy it myself yet since its not aviable in sweden and havent been able to afford ordering from the states yet.
take care bro
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btw about studies and abstracts. I try to always find the whole study aswell. I have acess to most big journals through my university but some I just cant get ahold of and paying for them is hard for me
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btw you might find this one interesting
http://www.jbc.org/cgi/content/abstract/261/16/7127
full study here
http://www.jbc.org/cgi/reprint/261/16/7127.pdf
havent had time to read that one yet. So I leave it up to you to tell me if it means anything goodBut if the abstract claim is correct and a 50% reduction on the HMG-CoA reductase by vitamin c is possible it must mean it could be a viable alternative to statins?
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this one aswell is interesting
http://www.jbc.org/cgi/content/full/274/12/8254In summary, this study demonstrates that L-ascorbic acid potentiates agonist-induced NO formation in cultured endothelial cells in a dose-dependent fashion. The effect was time-dependent, related to an increase of intracellular ascorbate levels, and saturated within physiologically relevant concentrations. Ascorbic acid did not induce the expression of ecNOS protein and may at least partially act through an effect on the availability or affinity of tetrahydrobiopterin for ecNOS. Further studies are in progress to clarify these suggested mechanisms. The findings presented in this study suggest that NO formation in endothelial cells depends on tissue ascorbate levels and that tissue saturation with ascorbic acid may add to the strategies for an improvement of endothelial vasodilator function in humans.
the biggest problem for me is that I simply do not have the knoweledge required to fully comprehend most studies.
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word. i'll be doing some reading while you're away.
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now Im back. Time to get started reading some more but at a slower pace now when I have started to study again.
did you read those things sinista?
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