Associate Member
Whats up bros whent in and had my blood work done all came back perfect however on the kidneys it showed higher than what it should .So I talk to my Doc and I asked he if I took creatine if this would have a effect on my Kidney levels and she said yes and to stop useing it alltogether ...Have any of you noticed this before ???AC
AR Hall of Fame
As long as drink plenty of water while using creatine you should have no issues.
~SC~
Respected Member
Kidney function is ofen measured by creatinine. Creatinine is a by product of creatine metabolization. So naturally if one consumes more creatine it would appear that perhpaps kidney function is affected. This is not true and is BS, there have been several long term studies done and no evidence what so ever has been presented that creatine can negatively effect the kidney. Your doctor is irresponsible for telling you this and next time ask him to show you proof.
Associate Member
Originally Posted by Giantz11
Bro I dont know one way or the other .I can tell you this when I incorporate creatine into my diet my frkin kendys do hurt and I piss non stop so I will see how the test results come back after staying off it for 2 weeks ..AC
Respected Member
You might have a pre-exsisiting kidney problem, however I would not place the blame on creatine.
Anabolic Member
my guess is placebo effect
Member
creatine can agrivate a kidney problem. looking for the article...
Have You Picked a Fight Lately?
how much {creatine : water} are you consuming a day?
Have You Picked a Fight Lately?
yeah... i'm quoting myself...
Respected Member
These might make you feel a bit better:
[Creatine: the nutritional supplement for exercise - current concepts]
[Article in Portuguese]
Mendes RR, Tirapegui J.
Departamento de Alimentos e Nutricao Experimental, Laboratorio de Nutricao, Faculdade de Ciencias Farmaceuticas Universidade de Sao Paulo, SP, Brasil.
Creatine, a natural nutrient found in animal foods, is alleged to be an effective nutritional ergogenic aid to enhance sport or exercise performance. It may be formed in kidney and liver from arginina and glicina. Creatine may be delivered to the muscle, where it may combine readily with phosphate to form creatine phosphate, a high-energy phosphagen in the ATP-CP system, and is stored. The ATP-CP energy system is important for rapid energy production, such as in speed and power events. Approximately 120 g of creatine is found in a 70 kg male, 95% in the skeletal muscle. Total creatine exists in muscle as both free creatine (40%) and phosphocreatine (60%). It is only recently that a concerted effort has been undertaken to investigate its potential ergogenic effect relative to sport or exercise performance. It does appear that oral creatine monohydrate may increase muscle total creatine, including both free and phosphocreatine. Many, but not all studies suggest that creatine supplementation may enhance performance in high intensity, short-term exercise task that are dependent primarily on the ATP-CP energy system, particularly on laboratory test involving repeated exercise bouts with limited recovery time between repetitions. Short-term creatine supplementation appears to increase body mass, although the initial increase is most likely water associated with the osmotic effect of increased intramuscular total creatine. Chronic creatine supplementation in conjunction with physical training involving resistance exercise may increase muscle mass. However, confirmatory research data are needed. Creatine supplementation up to 8 weeks, with high doses, has not been associated with major health risks; with low doses, it was demonstrated that in 5 years period supplementation, there are no adverse effects. The decision to use creatine as a mean to enhance sport performance is left to the description to the individual athlete.
Respected Member
Effects of long-term creatine supplementation on liver and kidney functions in American college football players.
Mayhew DL, Mayhew JL, Ware JS.
Exercise Science Program, Truman State University, Kirksville, MO 63501, USA.
The purpose of this study was to determine the effect of long-term Cr supplementation on blood parameters reflecting liver and kidney function. Twenty-three members of an NCAA Division II American football team (ages = 19-24 years) with at least 2 years of strength training experience were divided into a Cr monohydrate group (CrM, n = 10) in which they voluntarily and spontaneously ingested creatine, and a control group (n = 13) in which they took no supplements. Individuals in the CrM group averaged regular daily consumption of 5 to 20 g (mean SD = 13.9 5.8 g) for 0.25 to 5.6 years (2.9 1.8 years). Venous blood analysis for serum albumin, alk****e phosphatase, alanine aminotransferase, aspartate aminotransferase, bilirubin, urea, and creatinine produced no significant differences between groups. Creatinine clearance was estimated from serum creatinine and was not significantly different between groups. Within the CrM group, correlations between all blood parameters and either daily dosage or duration of supplementation were nonsignificant. Therefore, it appears that oral supplementation with CrM has no long-term detrimental effects on kidney or liver functions in highly trained college athletes in the absence of other nutritional supplements.
Respected Member
Effect of oral creatine supplementation on urinary methylamine, formaldehyde, and formate.
Poortmans JR, Kumps A, Duez P, Fofonka A, Carpentier A, Francaux M.
Higher Institute of Physical Education and Physical Therapy, Free University of Brussels, Brussels, Belgium. [email protected]
PURPOSE: It has been claimed that oral creatine supplementation might have potential cytotoxic effects on healthy consumers by increasing the production of methylamine and formaldehyde. Despite this allegation, there has been no scientific evidence obtained in humans to sustain or disprove such a detrimental effect of this widely used ergogenic substance. METHODS: Twenty young healthy men ingested 21 g of creatine monohydrate daily for 14 consecutive days. Venous blood samples and 24-h urine were collected before and after the 14th day of supplementation. Creatine and creatinine were analyzed in plasma and urine, and methylamine, formaldehyde, and formate were determined in 24-h urine samples. RESULTS: Oral creatine supplementation increased plasma creatine content 7.2-fold (P < 0.001) and urine output 141-fold (P < 0.001) with no effect on creatinine levels. Twenty-four-hour urine excretion of methylamine and formaldehyde increased, respectively, 9.2-fold (P = 0.001) and 4.5-fold (P = 0.002) after creatine feeding, with no increase in urinary albumin output (9.78 +/- 1.93 mg x 24 h(-1) before, 6.97 +/- 1.15 mg x 24 h(-1) creatine feeding). CONCLUSION: This investigation shows that short-term, high-dose oral creatine supplementation enhances the excretion of potential cytotoxic compounds, but does not have any detrimental effects on kidney permeability. This provides indirect evidence of the absence of microangiopathy in renal glomeruli.
Respected Member
Long-term oral creatine supplementation does not impair renal function in healthy athletes.
Poortmans JR, Francaux M.
Chimie Physiologique, Institut Superieur d'Education Physique et de Kinesitherapie, Universite Libre de Bruxelles, Brussels, Belgium. [email protected]
PURPOSE: Oral creatine supplementation is widely used in sportsmen and women. Side effects have been postulated, but no thorough investigations have been conducted to support these assertions. It is important to know whether long-term oral creatine supplementation has any detrimental effects on kidney function in healthy population. METHODS: Creatinine, urea, and plasma albumin clearances have been determined in oral creatine consumers (10 months to 5 yr) and in a control group. RESULTS: There were no statistical differences between the control group and the creatine consumer group for plasma contents and urine excretion rates for creatinine, urea, and albumin. Clearance of these compounds did not differ between the two groups. Thus, glomerular filtration rate, tubular reabsorption, and glomerular membrane permeability were normal in both groups. CONCLUSIONS: Neither short-term, medium-term, nor long-term oral creatine supplements induce detrimental effects on the kidney of healthy individuals.
Member
these are all studies on healthy athletes. so i guess i need to repeat myself for you.
"creatine can agrivate a kidney problem."
Respected Member
You're not repeating yourself to me. I'm not sure if you saw my post where I said it could be a pre-exsisting problem. If thats the case then obvisouly that's what it would be, but on healthy people there are no detremental effects and those posts weren't aimed at you so I'm not sure why youfelt the need to repeat yourself. I clearly said at the top
These might make you feel a bit better
Which was directed at Anthony.
Associate Member
6 months ago I had to have a ck up for my job at that time I had no problems .And at this time Ihave no real problems but my kidneys are at a higher level than they should be or above normal there are no concerns at this level but my doc wants to ck again in two weeks anyways .6 months ago I was taking zero supps nothing and noe I have been taking in creatine pro glutimane (spelling ) So Not sure .Like I said when I first started with the creatine my kidneys hurt like I had alot of preassure on them pissed all the time .I ll let you know in two weeks after I get them tested again
here is the kidney report as of last
C02 normal range 22-28 mine is 29
BUN (Not sure as to what this is )normal range 6-20 mine is at 30
Creatinine normal range 0.7-1.3 mine is 1.5
Any input on this guys thanks
Associate Member
Yes I agree juicy I dont know maybe I had an infection or some crap I dident know it took creatine and it caused my levels to spike a bit ????
Associate Member
A gal of water each day 10mg creatine a day .....AC
Have You Picked a Fight Lately?
ok, so that's not it
Associate Member
On a side note bro I have had zero preexsisting problems with anything .I have been searching this thing out on the net And I have found that creatine can totaly have an effect on the kidneys values on a healthy male protien also ...The info I found was that combined ceatine and protien could bring up the BUN And the Creeatinine values on blood work for your kidneys ..I wish we had a Doc here or a mod that could go more into this ..Im not saying what I found said its damaging the kidneys but bringing up kidney values on blood work ...AC
Last edited by Anthony C; 02-17-2006 at 09:42 PM.
Member
A 1.5 creatinine level can actually be normal for a young bodybuilder.
Micro
Associate Member
I don't see a problem with creatine, it's not like aas.
Member
But it can put strain on your Kidneys, more the others.
Micro
Associate Member
More than protein?
Member
Bro, I'd be more inclined to stick to the studied Giants posted back in the beginning of '06, which shows no adverse affect on renal function in healthy athletes.
Drink down the water and you'll be fine. There have been hundreds upon hundreds of studies done on creatine. Besides anecdotal reports, the only negative side effects which have been confirmed by scientific studies are the runs.
Just make sure you drink enough water and you're good to go.
Associate Member
Anthony c, ive had the same problem when i first started taking cee, got it checkd bc i was pissing blood, turns out it had nothing to do with the creatine dose at all.... buttt did show creatinine levels were a little high which is commenly an indictor of kidney failure, when your body produces it on its own. your by-product of creatine is creatinine and thats y your levels are high.
nothing to worry about unless your not taking creatine and ur levels are still high
Senior Member
Not to beat the crap out of this once exstinct thread, but ive also read a study recently that showed increased running in trainers (ie long distance) can elevate creatinine levels as well,
AR-Hall of Famer
Yes many things can. Which is why such markers are not always reliable when testing for kidney problems.
"without your word you're a shell of a man" - Tupac
***Giants11 is a fictional character any advice given is purely for entertainment purposes, always consult a physician before taking any supplements, drugs or changing your diet.***
Senior Member
I notice my kidneys hurt also whenever I take lots of creatine with not so much water, so maybe I have a problem? Shit.
Associate Member
i have also noticed whenever i consume creatine my kidneys start acting up when i don't drink enough water...
New Member
read this
by John M Berardi
Almost all long-term weightlifters have gone through it. In an effort to be proactive about our health, we go to the doctor for a routine check-up or to delve a little deeper into what’s going on physiologically and wham! The doc tells us that our kidneys are about to explode! And then, after the shocking news about our main filtration system, the doc lets us know that we may have had a heart attack! That’s right, according to our doc, our high protein diets are about to kill us.
What in the wide, wide, world of amino acids is going on? After all, many of the well-educated and progressive sports nutritionists have been recommending higher protein diets for years. And since researchers have demonstrated repeatedly that higher protein diets help maintain a positive nitrogen status in weight trainers and athletes, high protein diets can’t be all that bad, can they?
Well, doctors often think so. And let’s not make the mistake of thinking that these doctors are "idiots" or lost in the dark ages of medical practice, probably blood letting to release the evil humors. It’s not that simple. The truth of the matter is this: Weight training and higher protein diets do impact certain blood markers of health function, but it’s my contention that in weight trainers, these markers aren't nearly as alarming as many general practitioners think.
Therefore, without further ado, I’d like to present a letter that all doctors and parents should read before taking an alarmist approach to a patient or teenage weightlifter’s blood work. This letter is inspired by the countless emails I’ve received over the last few years from frantic patients who have been told that their health is being jeopardized by their high protein diets when it’s most certainly not!
For the adults in the audience, you certainly have the power and discretion to make your own choices with respect to your health. Unfortunately, many of the emails I get are from teens whose parents control the protein purse strings. For them, it’s not a matter of choice. Therefore, this letter is written in order that their parents are better able to understand the facts and make an informed decision.
Dear Mom and Dad,
I appreciate that you're taking an interest in your child’s health. The fact that you're questioning the assumptions inherent in the weight lifting community is commendable and hopefully will instill in your child the ability to question established norms and to verify the veracity of the claims issued by the self-proclaimed bodybuilding "gurus." After all, blindly following—without proper discretion—what all the other "meatheads" are doing can definitely lead to problems.
In addition, I thank you for your objectivity in seeking out the truth (or the information that comes as close to the truth as we can currently get). It’s difficult to remain objective in today’s society where we are easily influenced by the moods and alarmist nature of our current media machine.
With respect to your concerns, no doubt brought on by the concern of a well-intentioned physician or by the results of clinical assessment (i.e. blood work), I’d like to address the relevant issues below.
ISSUE #1 — Many physicians believe that high protein diets cause kidney dysfunction
RESPONSE #1 — This is FALSE according to everything science now knows to be true. This presumption states that if you take a healthy person and put them on a high protein diet, the protein will somehow negatively influence the kidney, damaging it and causing renal disease. To this end, there is absolutely no data in healthy adults suggesting that a high protein intake causes the onset of renal (kidney) dysfunction. There aren’t even any correlational studies showing this effect in healthy people.
Any studies that show a correlation between renal (kidney) dysfunction and protein intake are in those with some type of diagnosed, pre-existing renal (kidney) disease like diabetic nephropathy, glomerular lesions, etc. Even research into protein restriction for renal patients can be controversial. (Shils, Modern Nutr in Health & Dis, 1999).
Besides, you’ll likely recognize a serious pre-existing kidney condition; the signs and symptoms will clue you in long before you happen upon it with a routine blood test (especially if there's a noted family history of diabetes mellitus and hypertension).
Since an exhaustive search of the published literature will likely not yield a single study showing that the amount of protein in the diet causes, or is correlated with, the onset of renal dysfunction in otherwise healthy individuals, the fact that this notion prevails is puzzling to say the least!
But even if a doctor were to find an obscure reference that might suggest a relationship between a high-protein diet and kidney disease, there are numerous studies showing otherwise. Here are a few of them:
a) Ann Intern Med 2003 Mar 18;138(6):460-7
The impact of protein intake on renal function decline in women with normal renal function or mild renal insufficiency.
Knight EL, Stampfer MJ, Hankinson SE, Spiegelman D, Curhan GC.
b) Int J Sport Nutr Exerc Metab 2000 Mar;10(1):28-38
Do regular high protein diets have potential health risks on kidney function in athletes?
Poortmans JR, Dellalieux O.
c) Int J Obes Relat Metab Disord 1999 Nov;23(11):1170-7
Changes in renal function during weight loss induced by high vs low-protein low-fat diets in overweight subjects.
Skov AR, Toubro S, Bulow J, Krabbe K, Parving HH, Astrup A.
d) Eur J Clin Nutr 1996 Nov;50(11):734-40
Effect of chronic dietary protein intake on the renal function in healthy subjects.
Brandle E, Sieberth HG, Hautmann RE.
e) Am J Kidney Dis 2003 Mar;41(3):580-7
Association of dietary protein intake and microalbuminuria in healthy adults: Third National Health and Nutrition Examination Survey. "Dietary protein intake was not associated with microalbuminuria in normotensive or nondiabetic persons."
If you’re interested, these studies can be accessed at www.pubmed.com.
ISSUE #2 — Many physicians believe that because high protein diets can worsen the condition of those who already suffer from kidney dysfunction, it only stands to reason that this should be true in healthy people.
RESPONSE #2 — This is also FALSE! Much of the speculation about kidney dysfunction associated with high protein diets comes from early nutritional studies in renal patients (patients who already have kidney disease).
In these individuals, when high protein diets are given as part of total parenteral nutrition—or tube feedings—these diets exacerbated their renal (kidney) problems. From these data, some physicians and nutritionists began to speculate (sometimes erroneously) that increased protein in the diet could be harmful to even those with healthy kidneys.
While there are hundreds of studies showing that high protein diets are bad for kidney patients, I believe that a "leap" from clinical patients to healthy patients isn't warranted. It’s this leap that has been the cause of the persistent but slowly dying (sorry for the word selection) idea that high protein diets could harm the kidneys.
Again, there's no evidence whatsoever that high protein diets will harm the kidneys of a healthy weightlifter. This is about as ridiculous as someone suggesting that because eating certain types of fiber can worsen the GI symptoms of someone with irritable bowel syndrome, fiber must cause irritable bowl syndrome in otherwise healthy people.
ISSUE #3 — Kidneys DO change to adapt to high protein diets.
RESPONSE #3 — Some studies in healthy individuals do show an alteration of kidney function with very high protein diets. However, it's important to note that these changes are not reported as negative or "adverse." Instead, they seem to be structural adaptations to increased filtration (something the kidneys are doing all the time anyway).
If the kidney didn’t respond this way, most clinicians would think something was wrong. Just like in weight training, tissues adapt to the demands put on them. Therefore, just because the kidneys have to "work" harder, doesn’t mean that this is a negative thing. After all, what happens when muscles work harder? Well, they adapt to the demands and become bigger, stronger, or more efficient. Therefore, the adaptation that kidneys undergo is reasonable and appropriate. But don’t take my word for it, check out this study (again at www.pubmed.com):
Eur J Clin Nutr 1996 Nov;50(11):734-40
Effect of chronic dietary protein intake on the renal function in healthy subjects.
Brandle E, Sieberth HG, Hautmann RE.
ISSUE #4 — What about the increased creatinine and BUN indicated by the blood test?
RESPONSE #4 — For starters, how about a quick discussion of the two markers?
Creatinine is commonly known as a waste product of muscle or protein metabolism. To this end, its level is a reflection of the body's muscle mass or the amount of protein in the diet. Low levels are sometimes seen in kidney damage, protein starvation, liver disease, or pregnancy. Elevated levels are sometimes seen in kidney disease due to the fact that a damaged kidney will not remove creatinine from the body as it should. Also, elevated levels are seen with the use of some drugs that could impair kidney filtration. Finally, elevated levels could also be seen with muscle degeneration, a high protein diet, or creatine supplementation.
With respect to creatinine measurements, it’s important to note that the amount of creatinine in the blood is regulated by the amount being produced (from protein degradation—muscle or dietary) vs. the amount that’s being removed (by the kidney). Therefore, although creatinine in the blood COULD be a marker of a damaged kidney’s inability to filter creatinine out of the body at a normal rate, it COULD ALSO be a marker of rapid protein degradation (via muscle damage from weight training or from a high protein intake).
Think of the blood as a sink. If you turn on the faucet at a low rate, the amount of water going into the sink and the amount leaving the sink should balance each other out, leading to a predictable amount of water in the sink at any moment. However, if you partially plug the drain, you’ll get more water accumulating in the sink at the same faucet flow rate. This is similar to kidney dysfunction (thinking of the water as creatinine). However, alternatively, if the drain remains unplugged but you crank up the faucet flow rate, you’ll get more water in the sink due to the higher flow. This is similar to a high protein diet.
Since weightlifters are continually breaking down muscle protein (this is a good thing), even in the absence of a high protein diet, blood creatinine concentrations tend to be elevated. Furthermore, add in a higher protein diet and creatinine concentrations in the blood will rise. Finally, since creatinine is also a breakdown product of creatine, if a weightlifter is taking creatine supplements (which most do), blood creatinine concentrations will also be high. What all of this means is that the faucet is turned up in weightlifters, not that the drain is plugged.
To address the other relevant measure, the nitrogen component of urea, blood urea nitrogen (BUN), is the end product of protein metabolism and its concentration is also influenced by the rate of excretion (as is creatinine). Excessive protein intake, kidney damage, certain drugs, low fluid intake, intestinal bleeding, exercise, or heart failure can cause increases in BUN. Decreased levels may be due to a poor diet, malabsorption, liver damage, or low nitrogen intake. Excess BUN is even more closely correlated with protein intake than is creatinine. The same argument above applies here.
So, as you can see, since both creatinine and BUN are correlated with both high protein metabolism AND kidney function, I’m not suggesting that it’s unreasonable that doctors are worried about the kidneys of your son or daughter. But it’s important for you and your doctor to realize that the increases in BUN and creatinine seen in healthy weightlifters who eat higher protein diets aren’t necessarily a function of kidney health but are much more closely correlated with their diet and training.
ISSUE #5 — Since BUN and creatinines are non-specific measures, what should we have tested, just to be on the safe side?
RESPONSE #5 — According to physician and sports nutrition expert Dr. Eric Serrano, two additional measures are important to tease out the differences between the effects of training and nutrition and the effects of kidney dysfunction. The first is the BUN to creatinine ratio. Dr. Serrano suggests that values up to the low 30’s are okay but anything higher might be indicative of problems. The second is a urinary protein test. This test is a better measure of kidney function than most others.
Considering that most comprehensive kidney function tests include the following measures (A/G Ratio, Albumin, BUN, Calcium, Cholesterol, Creatinine, Globulin, LDH, Phosphorous, Protein - Total, Uric Acid) as well as urinary analysis, it seems irresponsible to make suggestions about protein intake after a simple blood chemistry analysis measuring BUN and creatinine.
ISSUE #6 — What about the increased levels of Creatine Kinase (CK)?
While this misdiagnosis isn’t as common as the aforementioned ones, many doctors erroneously speculate that elevations in a muscle damage marker, CK, is indicative of a recent myocardial infarction (heart attack)! How could this be?
Creatine Kinase is a cytosolic enzyme (it floats around in the fluid portion of cells) involved in muscle metabolism. Since creatine kinase is present in all muscle tissues (including skeletal muscle and cardiac muscle), the excessive appearance of creatine kinase in the blood is indicative of some type of muscle damage (again, either skeletal or cardiac). Countless studies have shown large rises in blood concentrations of creatine kinase with heart muscle damage (via heart attack) and even large rises in creatine kinase with normal, training-induced muscle damage (this damage is critical to the growth and adaptation process).
Interestingly, a high protein diet has been repeatedly demonstrated to increase resting creatine kinase and post-exercise creatine kinase concentrations without any additional damage (in a number of different species, including humans).
Furthermore, while the standard clinical creatine kinase assay doesn’t distinguish between skeletal muscle and cardiac muscle creatine kinase isoforms, there are muscle specific tests that can be done. Therefore, if a doc is worried about elevated creatine kinase, he or she should order a creatine kinase isoform test. This will determine whether the creatine kinase was released from skeletal or cardiac muscle.
In the end, if a doc is sitting in front of a high protein eatin’ weight trainer with lots of muscle mass (skeletal muscle creatine kinase release, as you might imagine, is closely related to total muscle mass) and sees an elevated creatine kinase score, the last thing on his or her mind should be "heart attack." Here’s a reference to check out:
Med Sci Sports Exerc. 1999 Mar;31(3):414-20
Effects of dietary protein on enzyme activity following exercise-induced muscle injury.
Hayward R, Ferrington DA, Kochanowski LA, Miller LM, Jaworsky GM, Schneider CM
John M Berardi, BSc, CSCS, PhD Candidate
Last edited by Markoni321; 07-28-2007 at 06:46 AM.
Senior Member
cranberry extract
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