Trying to jam this through my thick skull - critique, please!

[vermin]

OK, I will start with the diet which is very successful in losing weight, but not the right kind. Similar to what is here (and other places). I have a bit of a self-critique for improvement, but would appreciate other thoughts as well.

I have included my full supplementation, as perhaps there is something happening there that I do not recognize.

All food is weighed/measured.

Meal 1
oat - 1/2 C
skim milk - 1/2C
bev powder - 1 scoop
arg .5g
glucoseamine .5 chondroitin .4
calcium/D/Mag
Psyllium 2g
CoQ10 300
Chromium picolinate 200
Taurine & Carnitine
Total: 345Kc 9.5fat 38.5carb 26.5prot

Meal 2
prot shake
fish oil 1g
liver tabs (12)
prot tabs (12)
Total: 480kc 10f 23c 86p

Meal 3 (90 min pre-wo on wo days)
lean prot - 16 oz 600Kc 3f 0-1c 104prot

Post WO
prot shake
(during wo 10g glutamine + BCAAs, 2g arg)
Total: 550Kc 9f 49carb 43prot

meal 4
lean prot - 16 oz
green veg
yam/br rice/some low gi carb
liver tabs (12)
prot tabs (12)
Total: 890Kc 4.5f 45c 151p

meal 5
lean prot - 8oz
fish oil 1g
arg .5g
glucoseamine .5 chondroitin .4
calcium/D/Mag
Psyllium 2g
CoQ10 300
Chromium picolinate 200
Taurine & Carnitine
liver tabs (12)
prot tabs (12)
Total: 450Kc 4.5f 0c 98prot

Grand Totals: 3315 Kc 40.5f 155.5carb 508.5prot

Lean protein is typically chicken breast/filet/grilled fish.

Numbers are probably +/-10% depending on specifics of the day.

I am 5'9" 260 about 17.5%bf, intense lifting 5-6 hours a week, when trying to cut cardio about 6 hours/week at 70% HRmax.

I think that maybe more meals to break up the nutrition, esp. the protein? More carbs in the post workout to help protect muscle? Maybe add 90 units of zinc a day?

I am an "easy gainer" - I can throw on 25 pounds in 3 months, 18 of it muscle with major gains in strength all natural, and can do it twice a year. But I lose exactly that when I try to cut, so I get no where.

My arms. legs, back, and chest are all about as lean as someone at 8-10%, it is 100% in my gut, smooth under muscle distended fat. It has been suggested that I was diabetic due to my unusual appearance, but my sugars always come in from the lab around 80.

Thanks!

[novastepp]

so what are you trying to do with this diet?

[vermin]

My goal is to cut without losing my gains.

[Kärnfysikern]

OK, I will start with the diet which is very successful in losing weight, but not the right kind. Similar to what is here (and other places). I have a bit of a self-critique for improvement, but would appreciate other thoughts as well.

I have included my full supplementation, as perhaps there is something happening there that I do not recognize.

All food is weighed/measured.

Meal 1
oat - 1/2 C
skim milk - 1/2C
bev powder - 1 scoop
arg .5g
glucoseamine .5 chondroitin .4
calcium/D/Mag
Psyllium 2g
CoQ10 300
Chromium picolinate 200
Taurine & Carnitine
Total: 345Kc 9.5fat 38.5carb 26.5prot

Meal 2
prot shake
fish oil 1g
liver tabs (12)
prot tabs (12)
Total: 480kc 10f 23c 86p

Meal 3 (90 min pre-wo on wo days)
lean prot - 16 oz 600Kc 3f 0-1c 104prot

Post WO
prot shake
(during wo 10g glutamine + BCAAs, 2g arg)
Total: 550Kc 9f 49carb 43prot

meal 4
lean prot - 16 oz
green veg
yam/br rice/some low gi carb
liver tabs (12)
prot tabs (12)
Total: 890Kc 4.5f 45c 151p

meal 5
lean prot - 8oz
fish oil 1g
arg .5g
glucoseamine .5 chondroitin .4
calcium/D/Mag
Psyllium 2g
CoQ10 300
Chromium picolinate 200
Taurine & Carnitine
liver tabs (12)
prot tabs (12)
Total: 450Kc 4.5f 0c 98prot

Grand Totals: 3315 Kc 40.5f 155.5carb 508.5prot

I think you are consuming to much protein to be honest. You have tremendous ammounts of protein in almost every meal. To much protein will hinder fatloss aswell. You consume very little fat aswell imo. No saturated fat at all that I can se?? You need saturated fats aswell.

Try to drop 400 protein kcal and add 200 fat kcal.

[vermin]

So that would put me at about 60g fat? Maybe more like 400-430g protein?

I will admit to not being that up on the fat variants - olive oil and fish are what I have always tried to shoot for. What is the suggested form of saturated fats? I did a quick look up and the "standard" med sources attribute it to whole dairy & red meat and tell me to not eat it.

If it is flax, I can't take it - it makes my prostate the size of a baseball...(well, not quite, but you get the idea).

[Kärnfysikern]

So that would put me at about 60g fat? Maybe more like 400-430g protein?

I will admit to not being that up on the fat variants - olive oil and fish are what I have always tried to shoot for. What is the suggested form of saturated fats? I did a quick look up and the "standard" med sources attribute it to whole dairy & red meat and tell me to not eat it.

If it is flax, I can't take it - it makes my prostate the size of a baseball...(well, not quite, but you get the idea).

Yes that sounds about right. Maby even up to 80 grams of fat. Not combining fats and carbs is still a rule you should follow though.

Get your saturated fats from preferably virgin coconut oil. If you cant get that, just use plain butter. Many recomend against saturated fats but saturated fats play a importan role in so many processes in the body. Some want lauric(or maby it was capric) acid classified as a essentail fatty acid.

If you consume 80 grams of fat break it upp like this

15-20grams efa's. Fish oil or flax oil doesnt matter so go with fish in your case
30 grams from monounsaturated fats. Olive oil, avacado
30 grams from saturated fats. Meat, butter, coconut oil.

[vermin]

Anyone else have other feedback? Do you think these suggestioons work at all BF levels? The feedback at the gym was that at 17-18% I was too fat to eat all of that fat while cutting, that approach being more for already lean guys who don't have as much fat to cut. Of course that would mean more if the low-fat approach since November had been working....

With the carb/fat combo concerns (this site was the first I had heard this, then everyone at the gym says "oh, of course, everyone knows that"). How much fat in a prot/carb meal is OK?

[Kärnfysikern]

in a pro/carb meal I aim for less than 7 or so grams of fat.

Fat doesnt make you fat and fat is essential to health. You can for instance survivie without carbs without any problem, but you die without fat.
Low fat diets are a thing of the past

But the bottom line is that you need to play around with the macros to se what is best for you. Me personaly I cut best on low carb, high fat and high protein. Others can hardly function at all if cutting like me. It takes alot of tweaking and toying around to figure it out.
Since you have tried the plan you outlined above before and it didnt work I se no reason to try it again?

Try a approach for a solid 6-7 weeks and se how it works

Since muscle loss seem to be the main concern here I would take a very close look at the workout routine though. try a routine with non failure training and only 4 workouts a week.

[novastepp]

in a pro/carb meal I aim for less than 7 or so grams of fat.

Fat doesnt make you fat and fat is essential to health. You can for instance survivie without carbs without any problem, but you die without fat.
Low fat diets are a thing of the past

But the bottom line is that you need to play around with the macros to se what is best for you. Me personaly I cut best on low carb, high fat and high protein. Others can hardly function at all if cutting like me. It takes alot of tweaking and toying around to figure it out.
Since you have tried the plan you outlined above before and it didnt work I se no reason to try it again?

Try a approach for a solid 6-7 weeks and se how it works

Since muscle loss seem to be the main concern here I would take a very close look at the workout routine though. try a routine with non failure training and only 4 workouts a week.

I agree with teh statement that if you are worried about muscle loss you shouldn't be training til failure. And just a personal note, i found that if i limit myself to maybe just one source of carbs while cutting (for me it's oats) i have a lot more success and am able to eat carbs a little more. But i also do a lower/moderate carb and higher fat and protein diet when cutting. good luck bro!

[vermin]

Thanks - that's interesting about limiting the training. What is the basis for that? Something about not tearing the muscles up so much so they don't have to try to rebuild?

I usually only train 3X a week, but in 2 hour sessions - during "bulking" it is almost past failure to passing out/collapse, when during between times it is a more conventional to-failure type of approach.

Hard to know what the alternative is - I've never been good at shooting for 70%....

I suppose I should clarify my goals - I am concerned about preserving actual muscle (=strength), not aesthetics. Because of the way I gain, with my fat all abdominal, breathing becomes an issue as I try to gain more. So for core exercises for example, I am stuck at 530 deads not due to limits on strength gains, but because I can not breath due to abdominal asphyxiation.

[novastepp]

you can try this, lower the weight and still press with MAXIMUM EFFORT so pushing or pulling the weight as hard and as fast as you can. the weight shouldn't matter all that will matter is pushing as fast and as hard as you can for the alloted reps.

[vermin]

What we tend to call "light weight, just for the pump" I suppose.

Wouldn't you tend to lose a lot of strength after 6 weeks of only that? Would you massively increase the reps, or am I still not getting the idea?

[Kärnfysikern]

NO dont do light pump training!

Just do nonfailure training but still heavy. You can do the regular 3-4 sets and 6-10 reps but never ever go to failure in any of the sets.

The logic behind it is that failure training is not needed. All the stimulation the muscle needs to grow is made during the reps and the last failure rep just strains the CNS.

You can try to throw in some heavy low rep work aswell. Start chest day with 5 sets of 3 reps with 80% of your 1 rep max. Same in squat or dead.

Try to limit workouts to 60 minutes. No more than 80 minutes at most.