Quck Hgh question

[Neo22]

After reading through the faq's and whatnot I didn't find a clear cut answer. When adding in growth taking 5/2 split, do you supress your natural levels? Meaning that when you come off does your body take a while to get back to normal or?

[oldpapapump]

Take your HGH in the morning and you will not suppress your natural gh release that occurs a couple hours after you go to sleep at night. This way you get both working at once. It's not test.

[Neo22]

Take your HGH in the morning and you will not suppress your natural gh release that occurs a couple hours after you go to sleep at night. This way you get both working at once. It's not test.

Sweet bro thats all I needed to konw

[oldpapapump]

Let me add to this. Your pituitary is already producing growth hormone... and the older you get less it producess. Your pituitary, however, will continue to produce and release whatever it does independent of injectible growth hormone (but it might release a little more than it would have, because the pituitary itself might be benefitted from growth hormone) because there is not a feedback mechanism, as there is with testosterone... In any case, if you stop taking growth hormone, your pituitary continues releasing at least what it would have, and maybe more, without any negative effect from your having taken injectible growth hormone.

[Neo22]

Let me add to this. Your pituitary is already producing growth hormone... and the older you get less it producess. Your pituitary, however, will continue to produce and release whatever it does independent of injectible growth hormone (but it might release a little more than it would have, because the pituitary itself might be benefitted from growth hormone) because there is not a feedback mechanism, as there is with testosterone... In any case, if you stop taking growth hormone, your pituitary continues releasing at least what it would have, and maybe more, without any negative effect from your having taken injectible growth hormone.

Thats probably the most helpful and informative post I have read on this board or ************ EVER. Seriously I can't say that I've ever had anyone actually ever answer a question with the RIGHT answer. Thanks a ton!

[oldpapapump]

Glad to help.

[rodge]

, will continue to produce and release whatever it does independent of injectible growth hormone (but it might release a little more than it would have, because the pituitary itself might be benefitted from growth hormone) because there is not a feedback mechanism, .

do you got a some evidence to back this up? cause its the first time i hear this and if its true then that would be great but for now i would say there is a negative feedback loop and thats why we use the 5/2 or eod protocol for longer hgh cycles,to give our pituitary gland a break. according to anthony roberts hgh profile high levels of test can fool the feedback loop a bit but also clearly states there is one.

-rodge

[oldpapapump]

Elmer M. Cranton, M.D from the Mount Rainier Clinic and Mount Rogers Clinic, with over 100 patients on hgh theropy, claims that the pituitary gland is not affected in a negetive way by hgh. Patients on hgh for over three years are still creating gh by the pituitary gland. I don't know, Does anyone know for sure? I believe he may be right, the gland will always produce. Prove me (him) wrong.
http://drcranton.com/

[oldpapapump]

there is a feedback mechanism which will cause the thyroid gland (if you take thyroid hormons) to stop producing thyroid. Testicles stop or decrease the production of natural testosterone temporarily after testosterone is injected. But hgh does not affect the pituitary gland.

[Neo22]

there is a feedback mechanism which will cause the thyroid gland to stop producing thyroid. Testicles stop or decrease the production of natural testosterone temporarily after testosterone is injected. But hgh does not affect the pituitary gland.

So are you saying my thyroid is going to take a shit? Do I need to worry about fat gain or anything like that?

[oldpapapump]

Read again. If you take thyroid hormons.

[JohnnyB]

Ant hormone you use will have a negative feedback. it's the nature of the game. the theory sound good, but it not practical

JohnnyB

[TheNextBigThing]

So how long can someone take HGH safely without shutting down their own pituitary? Months, Years?

[Ufa]

Love it.

[rodge]

redbaron once gave me the advice to go 5/2 when you take hgh longer then 9-12 months.

-rodge

[Neo22]

redbaron once gave me the advice to go 5/2 when you take hgh longer then 9-12 months.

-rodge

I will ask you this because I've read another one of your posts. THe ONLY reason I'm taking hgh is because I'm trying to heal a torn leg muscle. Doing 2iu a day at 5/2 split. Since you run t3 that and I'm not am I potentially damaging my thyroid?

[rodge]

I will ask you this because I've read another one of your posts. THe ONLY reason I'm taking hgh is because I'm trying to heal a torn leg muscle. Doing 2iu a day at 5/2 split. Since you run t3 that and I'm not am I potentially damaging my thyroid?

no.

-rodge

[oldpapapump]

I think the question here should be how long can you take HGH before your body creates a resistance to it. In my opinion it’s not the pituitary you have to worry about but the gh resistance. I think small amounts 2-3iu of Gh for 1 year with three months off before you start the 2nd year should be fine(this is also coming from my endocrinologist, I have a script for HGH therapy for life). Doing gh like this is probably only good for health reasons anyway. If you want good gains you should raise the amount for shorter cycle.

[Neo22]

I think the question here should be how long can you take HGH before your body creates a resistance to it. In my opinion it’s not the pituitary you have to worry about but the gh resistance. I think small amounts 2-3iu of Gh for 1 year with three months off before you start the 2nd year should be fine(this is also coming from my endocrinologist, I have a script for HGH therapy for life). Doing gh like this is probably only good for health reasons anyway. If you want good gains you should raise the amount for shorter cycle.

so witht dosage im running i shouldnt worry about the thyroid? I will only be running 3 months

[j martini]

redbaron once gave me the advice to go 5/2 when you take hgh longer then 9-12 months.

-rodge

Here is a study i posted a while back about EOD gh use vs ED use and how quickly the body recovers after and how each particualr metod lowers your bodys sensitivity to its own GH production after cesation of GH use.

Whether EOD use as opposed to 5on2off would be best long term is questionable.
posted by BMF2 on Qualitymuscle


GH - (ed verses eod)


A very thorough well controlled 4 year study published on
The Journal of Clinical Endocrinology & Metabolism Vol. 87, No.8 3573-3577
clearly shows every other day (EOD) hGH injections to be much more beneficial in
the long run to everyday injections. Everyday injections seems to drastically lower
your body's sensitivity to it's own GH secretion. The study included children with idiopathic
short stature, but can be ever casting on us, normal non-deficient hGH individuals who
may use hGH periodically for bodybuilding, sports and health purposes.

The 38 children were divided into 2 groups:
Group I received daily hGH injections.
Group II received alternate day hGH injections.

It is important to note that the total weekly dosage of hGH
was the same for both groups.

Both groups received the hGH therapy contiguously for 2 years.
Their natural growth was followed for an additional 2 years after hGH therapy ended.
They were all measured at 3-month intervals during the 4 years period (2 years
with hGH therapy and 2 years after). Their Serum GH was measured by double antibody RIA kit.

During hGH therapy, both groups accelerated their growth substantially.
Group I receiving the daily hGH injections first & second year velocity was 3.4 and 2.3 SD
Group II receiving the alternate hGH inj. had 3.0 and 2.0 SD for first and second year respectively.

Over the initial 6 months after withdrawal of therapy, growth velocity decelerated to a low nadir -3.9 SD score
for the daily therapy group, whereas it decelerated in the alternate day group to only -0.2 SD score.

During the 2 years off therapy, the later group (taking EOD injections)
maintained growth rates of -0.2 to -1.2 SD score, which is similar to their SD score prior to the hGH treatment.
The daily group also recovered but very slowly, on the fourth semiannual evaluation off therapy.
The cumulative 4-year growth velocity (2yrs on and 2 yrs off therapy) of the alternate day group was greater
than that of the daily therapy group (mean, 0.9 vs. 0.3 SD score).

At the end of the 4-yr therapy period, the adult height prediction of the alternate day group was greater
than that of the daily group by a mea of 6.5cm (that's over 2.5" in height, quite a lot of difference)

In even simpler English, to translate what it may mean to us is that using hGH everyday will only
negligibly give better short-term results. Yet using alternate day hGH will give radically better long-term
results and much better recovery. As the body may get back to homeostasis much faster.

Remember the two groups got the same weekly total hGH dosage,
so your every other day hGH injections would be twice as if you used
it every day.

The researchers said, the dose was of less impotency than the schedule of the injections.
Daily hGH therapy for 3 years caused subnormal growth persisting for 1.5 years (very bad)

It may be that the problem is not enough hGH or IGF-1 secretion but rather
the body's decreased sensitivity to it. The interesting part is that the serum GH levels
and serum IGF-I and IGF-binding protein remained unaffected or relatively mutely affected.
Even your body's endogenous pulsatile secretion of GH resumes within just days
even after long-term hGH therapy.

The researchers hypothesis is that the tolerance may be in the "GH signal transduction in
selective target organs in response to the disappearance of the unique pulsatile
pattern of serum GH during GH therapy". You see, hGH taken via sc injections
do not imitate the your body's own GH secretion.
"Indeed, daily sc administration of GH results in an unphysiological serum GH profile, with peak
levels at 4 h and a slow decline over the course of the following 12–24 h. This pattern can be
regarded as continuous administration, rather than the physiological GH pulses,
with a frequency of about eight per day."
"Assuming that the withdrawal syndrome is related to tolerance that might have developed toward
hGH or IGF-I, we tried to prevent it by alternate day treatment. Moreover, hGH doses used in
therapy often stimulate IGF-I to supraphysiological serum levels, suggesting that target
tissues IGF-I may also be higher than normal. The mechanism seems, therefore, to rest
with hGH and IGF-I action at their target tissues. We now show that alternate day therapy
with hGH in children with an intact GH-IGF-I axis prevents the withdrawal syndrome"

Researchers mark the analogy to another endocrine tolerance and withdrawal syndrome:
"alternate day therapy with glucocoricoids prevents tolerance to that hormone to a substantial degree,
"Interestingly, glucocoricoids withdrawal syndrome can also occur while the
hypothalamic-pituitary-adrenal axis is intact (, indicating that tolerance to glucocoricoids has developed
at the target organ level (9). "

An example of a good safe protocol to follow in my opinion could be

hGH taken for 4 months (16 weeks) or more at 8IU every other day,
split to 4IU three hours after waking up (say 11:00am)
and another 4IU taken 4 hours later (say 3:00pm).
This approach is quite conservative and may be optimal.

Obviously, you may extend past 4months, and take more IUs per day.
This approach goes with 8IU EOD, so it is equivalent to folks that would
otherwise go with 4IU ED, which is what most do.

There is some controversy as to how many of these IUs the body
can utilize at once

Obviously, there are lot of studies, some better conducted, some less.
Lots of opinions and doctrines in endocrinology, bodybuilding etc..
So you should make your own decision, I guess old individuals on
hGH for life would not mind, as no rebound would affect them. Professional
bodybuilders probably wouldn't mind as well.

I would rather follow a protocol like this. For most part due to the
nasty rebound that I could get after withdrawing from long-term ED hGH treatment.
Nothing worse then look awesome, stop hGH then after several months having:
Low body sensitivity to your own body's GH.
Slow recovery
Decline in resting cardiac output
Increase fat mass
Decrease in metabolic rate
Negative nitrogen balance, phosphorus, sodium and potassium.

Again, I said "could" not "would", because this study cannot absolutely manifest
our use of hGH. Moreso, we are not children, we are not idiopathic hGH deficient
and not aGHD. But since the weekly dosages do remain the same as well as the
duration of the hGH usage. Just changing to the EOD protocol from the well
hyped everyday inj protocol is worth in my honest opinion. It seems statistically
a better bet, with more chance to win, than loose as opposed to the ED protocol.

I just tried to summarize the findings of the study, which was by the way,
a pleasure to read as the study is well written and was prepared by
Dr Hochberg, MD, a renowned well respected figure in endocrinology.

You can read the full article with all the graphs and details here:
http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/content/full/87/8/3573
With references to 23 studies.

Here are some interesting graphs:

http://jcem.endojournals.org/conten...g0828721002.gif
This graph shows the difference growth velocity difference pre GH treatment, and at the
end of the trial, 4 years after (2 years after withdrawal from GH treatment)
The dark bar marks the alternate day injections. The light bar marks the every day injections,
note that the every day injections group saw worse long-term (4 yrs) results as opposed
to the alternate day group.

http://jcem.endojournals.org/conten...g0828721003.gif
This graph shows the annual bone age advancement in children treated with
alternate GH injections and daily injections.
The light bar marks the every day injections, the dark bar the alternate day injections.
In first two years (the years they were taking hGH), take a look at the relatively
small advantage ED injections gave over the EOD inj, as opposed to the 2 years
after withdrawal of the treatment.

[Neo22]

Here is a study i posted a while back about EOD gh use vs ED use and how quickly the body recovers after and how each particualr metod lowers your bodys sensitivity to its own GH production after cesation of GH use.

Whether EOD use as opposed to 5on2off would be best long term is questionable.
posted by BMF2 on Qualitymuscle


GH - (ed verses eod)


A very thorough well controlled 4 year study published on
The Journal of Clinical Endocrinology & Metabolism Vol. 87, No.8 3573-3577
clearly shows every other day (EOD) hGH injections to be much more beneficial in
the long run to everyday injections. Everyday injections seems to drastically lower
your body's sensitivity to it's own GH secretion. The study included children with idiopathic
short stature, but can be ever casting on us, normal non-deficient hGH individuals who
may use hGH periodically for bodybuilding, sports and health purposes.

The 38 children were divided into 2 groups:
Group I received daily hGH injections.
Group II received alternate day hGH injections.

It is important to note that the total weekly dosage of hGH
was the same for both groups.

Both groups received the hGH therapy contiguously for 2 years.
Their natural growth was followed for an additional 2 years after hGH therapy ended.
They were all measured at 3-month intervals during the 4 years period (2 years
with hGH therapy and 2 years after). Their Serum GH was measured by double antibody RIA kit.

During hGH therapy, both groups accelerated their growth substantially.
Group I receiving the daily hGH injections first & second year velocity was 3.4 and 2.3 SD
Group II receiving the alternate hGH inj. had 3.0 and 2.0 SD for first and second year respectively.

Over the initial 6 months after withdrawal of therapy, growth velocity decelerated to a low nadir -3.9 SD score
for the daily therapy group, whereas it decelerated in the alternate day group to only -0.2 SD score.

During the 2 years off therapy, the later group (taking EOD injections)
maintained growth rates of -0.2 to -1.2 SD score, which is similar to their SD score prior to the hGH treatment.
The daily group also recovered but very slowly, on the fourth semiannual evaluation off therapy.
The cumulative 4-year growth velocity (2yrs on and 2 yrs off therapy) of the alternate day group was greater
than that of the daily therapy group (mean, 0.9 vs. 0.3 SD score).

At the end of the 4-yr therapy period, the adult height prediction of the alternate day group was greater
than that of the daily group by a mea of 6.5cm (that's over 2.5" in height, quite a lot of difference)

In even simpler English, to translate what it may mean to us is that using hGH everyday will only
negligibly give better short-term results. Yet using alternate day hGH will give radically better long-term
results and much better recovery. As the body may get back to homeostasis much faster.

Remember the two groups got the same weekly total hGH dosage,
so your every other day hGH injections would be twice as if you used
it every day.

The researchers said, the dose was of less impotency than the schedule of the injections.
Daily hGH therapy for 3 years caused subnormal growth persisting for 1.5 years (very bad)

It may be that the problem is not enough hGH or IGF-1 secretion but rather
the body's decreased sensitivity to it. The interesting part is that the serum GH levels
and serum IGF-I and IGF-binding protein remained unaffected or relatively mutely affected.
Even your body's endogenous pulsatile secretion of GH resumes within just days
even after long-term hGH therapy.

The researchers hypothesis is that the tolerance may be in the "GH signal transduction in
selective target organs in response to the disappearance of the unique pulsatile
pattern of serum GH during GH therapy". You see, hGH taken via sc injections
do not imitate the your body's own GH secretion.
"Indeed, daily sc administration of GH results in an unphysiological serum GH profile, with peak
levels at 4 h and a slow decline over the course of the following 12–24 h. This pattern can be
regarded as continuous administration, rather than the physiological GH pulses,
with a frequency of about eight per day."
"Assuming that the withdrawal syndrome is related to tolerance that might have developed toward
hGH or IGF-I, we tried to prevent it by alternate day treatment. Moreover, hGH doses used in
therapy often stimulate IGF-I to supraphysiological serum levels, suggesting that target
tissues IGF-I may also be higher than normal. The mechanism seems, therefore, to rest
with hGH and IGF-I action at their target tissues. We now show that alternate day therapy
with hGH in children with an intact GH-IGF-I axis prevents the withdrawal syndrome"

Researchers mark the analogy to another endocrine tolerance and withdrawal syndrome:
"alternate day therapy with glucocoricoids prevents tolerance to that hormone to a substantial degree,
"Interestingly, glucocoricoids withdrawal syndrome can also occur while the
hypothalamic-pituitary-adrenal axis is intact (, indicating that tolerance to glucocoricoids has developed
at the target organ level (9). "

An example of a good safe protocol to follow in my opinion could be

hGH taken for 4 months (16 weeks) or more at 8IU every other day,
split to 4IU three hours after waking up (say 11:00am)
and another 4IU taken 4 hours later (say 3:00pm).
This approach is quite conservative and may be optimal.

Obviously, you may extend past 4months, and take more IUs per day.
This approach goes with 8IU EOD, so it is equivalent to folks that would
otherwise go with 4IU ED, which is what most do.

There is some controversy as to how many of these IUs the body
can utilize at once

Obviously, there are lot of studies, some better conducted, some less.
Lots of opinions and doctrines in endocrinology, bodybuilding etc..
So you should make your own decision, I guess old individuals on
hGH for life would not mind, as no rebound would affect them. Professional
bodybuilders probably wouldn't mind as well.

I would rather follow a protocol like this. For most part due to the
nasty rebound that I could get after withdrawing from long-term ED hGH treatment.
Nothing worse then look awesome, stop hGH then after several months having:
Low body sensitivity to your own body's GH.
Slow recovery
Decline in resting cardiac output
Increase fat mass
Decrease in metabolic rate
Negative nitrogen balance, phosphorus, sodium and potassium.

Again, I said "could" not "would", because this study cannot absolutely manifest
our use of hGH. Moreso, we are not children, we are not idiopathic hGH deficient
and not aGHD. But since the weekly dosages do remain the same as well as the
duration of the hGH usage. Just changing to the EOD protocol from the well
hyped everyday inj protocol is worth in my honest opinion. It seems statistically
a better bet, with more chance to win, than loose as opposed to the ED protocol.

I just tried to summarize the findings of the study, which was by the way,
a pleasure to read as the study is well written and was prepared by
Dr Hochberg, MD, a renowned well respected figure in endocrinology.

You can read the full article with all the graphs and details here:
http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/content/full/87/8/3573
With references to 23 studies.

Here are some interesting graphs:

http://jcem.endojournals.org/conten...g0828721002.gif
This graph shows the difference growth velocity difference pre GH treatment, and at the
end of the trial, 4 years after (2 years after withdrawal from GH treatment)
The dark bar marks the alternate day injections. The light bar marks the every day injections,
note that the every day injections group saw worse long-term (4 yrs) results as opposed
to the alternate day group.

http://jcem.endojournals.org/conten...g0828721003.gif
This graph shows the annual bone age advancement in children treated with
alternate GH injections and daily injections.
The light bar marks the every day injections, the dark bar the alternate day injections.
In first two years (the years they were taking hGH), take a look at the relatively
small advantage ED injections gave over the EOD inj, as opposed to the 2 years
after withdrawal of the treatment.

Good article I've come to realization based on that that EOD is better. But the question I guess still has to do with the thyroid and not finding any studies on it.

[oldpapapump]

Nice article, and yet another study. Now this will throw a wrench to all that take 5-2. It seems that what ever your belief on HGH may be you can also find a study to enforce it. Bottom line is do what works for you. I for one got little from 3iu 5-2 for one year, so I will change to 12iu 3-3 for 5 months and if it works then I stay with it.
The effects of GH on thyroid function is controversial. But most studies have reported significant changes in thyroid function. So to be on the safe side there is no harm in adding t-3 at 20-40mcg daily to counter.

[Neo22]

Nice article, and yet another study. Now this will throw a wrench to all that take 5-2. It seems that what ever your belief on HGH may be you can also find a study to enforce it. Bottom line is do what works for you. I for one got little from 3iu 5-2 for one year, so I will change to 12iu 3-3 for 5 months and if it works then I stay with it.
The effects of GH on thyroid function is controversial. But most studies have reported significant changes in thyroid function. So to be on the safe side there is no harm in adding t-3 at 20-40mcg daily to counter.

What you are saying is that based on the studies you've read, hgh will only supress it while taking it. Then when you would come off the hgh, yoru thyroid would come back to normal level?

[oldpapapump]

yess