getting off of HRT

[tex66]

I posted this inquiry in the anabolic section and got a few responses, but there hasn't been any more activity on that post so I'm hoping someone at this board might offer some advice to me. This post probably belonged in the HRT section to begin with anyway.

I'm 40 years old and my doctor prescribed Androgel 1% about 8 months ago. I used the Androgel for about 5 months and then switched to injections for the past three months. The injections were 200mg and were administered only once per month.

The reason for starting test replacement was because I had complained to my doctor about some ED problems I was having and told him that Viagra was way too high priced and I was wondering if there were any other options. He suggested, "why don't we give you a little testosterone boost and see if that helps". He did not do any blood work prior to this. I did have my test level checked once about 5 years earlier and it was in the low end of the normal range, but I've always had great sex drive, just experiencing occasional ED difficulties.

Anyway, we started the testosterone replacement about 8 months ago and I think it may have helped a little, but nothing very significant. In fact, I was wondering if it was actually worth the trouble to continue it. Unfortunately, my doctor did not inform me that exogenous test will shut down HPTA and make me infertile. I found that out when I recently saw another doctor. This just doesn't work for me. I have a woman who wishes to have a child, so I can't be infertile. I have to get off of it.

I made another appointment with an endocrinologist and saw him about a week ago. He told me that I can expect to be without test production for several months or longer. He said there is no definite timeframe he can give me for when my HPTA might kick back into action. Now I'm pretty worried.

I've had all sorts of suggestions about using some sort of PCT, but I'm not familiar with the use of these drugs and really don't want to experiment on myself with them. The endo did not suggest that I use anything at all. He says that I should just let time go by and wait for my natural production to start again. I've asked this same question now dozens of times and have yet to get any sort of decent answer: Can anyone tell me ABOUT how long it will take for my HPTA to start functioning if I do absolutely nothing except wait? Do you guys have any experience with this?

I have another appointment with my doctor next Friday. My last 200mg injection was 20 days ago. I'm feeling pretty lousy now and have no libido at all. I have been in contact with Swale and am planning to get him to consult with my doctor because I don't think my doctor has any experience with this stuff. After all, he put me on HRT without ever checking by blood and then, after 5 months of Androgel, put me on 200mg per month injections. From what I understand, 200mg per month is NOT an appropriate HRT dose. So, as you can see, I have plenty of reason to suspect that my doctor doesn't know what the hell he's doing, so I want him to consult with Swale on this.

In the meantime, I'm freaking out and worrying that I'm going to spend the next 6 months with no libido and feel like crap the whole time. From what I've explained here, would anyone care to take a guess at what is going to happen with my HPTA as far as recovery? I am really wondering how long this is going to take before I am back to my pre-HRT test levels. If any of you have experince with Swale, would you think that there is anything he will be able to do to assist my doctor in getting me on the road to recovery?

Thanks for any input you can provide.

[toc67guru]

check your private messages tex.

[toc67guru]

tex66 i didn't realise you cannot receive pm's yet.
i am going to work now so will post a reply later.
in the meantime put your faith in swale he is the specialist and read this thoroughly.
i will be asking you questions on it later.so do your HOME WORk (swale's RECIPE FOR TRT:-

http://forums.steroid.com/showthread...hlight=crisler


also reassure you swale statet TRT does not make a fertile man infertile !

(TRT doses approx 100mg/week of test cypionate or enanthate)

steroid cycles doses are a completely different matter.

[tex66]

Thanks for your reply. Actually, I have already read that about 40 times. I think I have all of it memorized now, so go ahead and test me. In fact, I've been searching the internet for info for over two weeks and have read everything I can find. I have also seen some info that suggests the HRT doses don't always make a man infertile, but both my urologist and endocrinologist have assured me that pregnancy is impossible while using any form of exogenous testosterone. I just want off of it and am really worried about how long it is going to take to get my natural production back. From what I've read, Swale is the man who can help, so I am putting my faith into him. It is going to be another week before I go back to the doctor, so until then, I'm hoping somebody can give me some sort of indication of how many weeks or months I'm going to be waiting to recover my HPTA.

[Ufa]

Good luck with your goals.

[anabolicbruce]

"If you get depressed or low energy. Use a dab of the test cream you have from before."

Ufa, Were did you come up with this protocol? lol

Tex, the infertility concern can be addressed with low doses of Hcg during your trt, as SWALE has suggested. I have been on trt for 2 years (roughly) and my sperm count is in the upper normal range. I think the protocol you Dr. had you on wasnt sufficient in keeping your levels optimal and stable, I consider some of the guys on this board experts due to there research and experience. Hang around a bit and youll learn a lot!

[toc67guru]

if you were indeed hypogonadal when the doctor first put you on androgel you may never recover to normal levels no matter how long you give yourself(you may be able to recover to pre androgel levels but again you may still have naturally low testosterone levels).your HPTA output may have been on a decline for years.
PCT(post cycle therapy) is used by bodybuilders who have been using steroid cycles which over time can reduce their endogenous production to extremely low levels back to normal levels.they have in effect self inflicted themselves with hypogonadism.it is their intention to use steroids to add mass and hope with proper PCT they can recover natural testosterone output ASAP and maintain their size.
this is for some very successful for others it is a disaster,many never fully recover even after months(6-12 months)clean.this is even after proper PCT,(many try multiple pct cycles in a vain attempt to start the HPTA,meanwhile time goes on and feeling like shit is not good for anyone's sanity or health),if unsuccessful they are left then with no alternative but resorting to a lifetime of TRT to feel 'normal' again.

pct can consist of a cycle of HCG(some even use it sporadically to try to maintain testicular function) to mimic LH(luetinising hormone)which has been suppressed by the steroids which will signal the testes which may have atrophied(shrunk)through inactivity for weeks,months or for some years.hcg will restore testicular size and make the testes more responsive and better able to produce testosterone when the body's natural LH is adequate.a serm like clomid and or nolvodex is used at this point to signal that estrogen levels are low by blocking the negative feedback loop.the body is duped into producing more testosterone at this point so it can aromatise a % to estrogen thus increasing estrogen levels.it is with this increase in natural test levels that the athlete hopes on cessation of the serm the body can maintain adequate output.
certainly now after you reading the RECIPE 40 times don't have to tell you 200mg/month of testosterone was likely way to low.approx 100mg of test cyp/week is is more likely closer to your needs.blood tests are used to fine tune but swale starts his patients on 5mg androgel/day or 100mg of test cyp/week.
he also uses small doses of hcg to address testicular atrophy and other health benefits.as i said in my previous post i have read where he said that true TRT does not make a fertile man infertile!
(i certainly don't know how fertile you were prior to your treatment)

swale will work with you on this.tell him all your concerns etc.
my personal experience with endocrinologists is they don't seem to know too much !
what i would say is for many men with hypogonadism proper TRT(properly dosed and fine tuned to the individual) is a godsend,allowing them a better and more fulfilling quality of life!
if indeed you need TRT for test levels using hcg will keep the testes active the leydig cells in the testes will produce a small amount of natural testosterone by the hcg mimicking LH.The Sertoli cells in the testes(which produce semen)do not need much FSH (follicle stimulating hormone)as long as they are in an environment of testosterone (such as while on HCG).

you might even ask about HMG(HUMAN MENOPAUSAL GONADOTROPHINS)if natural sperm levels are low as it contains LH and FSH which would increase fertility.

hold out for the experts (swale) opinion !

[Ufa]

Never heard of the gentlemen!

[tex66]

Thanks for the encouraging posts!

Perhaps I will need TRT someday, but for now I wish to simply get back to my pre-Androgel levels. I was content with the way I felt at that time. I felt good and had plenty of energy and a powerful libido. Libido was never an issue for me. The sex drive was there, I just experienced periodic ED symptoms. I will never know if my pre-Androgel testosterone levels were low because there was no bloodwork. The only time it was checked was 5 years ago and it was in the low end of normal range. Of course, it was afternoon when they checked it and there could have been other factors involved in my life at the time that gave me that reading.

Also, I found it to be inconvenient to have to apply Androgel every morning. I know it is really no big deal, but I would prefer not to have to do it. And my doctor told me that I had no choice except to come into his office and pay an office visit fee and wait in the waiting room for 2 hours everytime I had to get an injection. He said he could not prescribe it to me so that I could do self-injections. Said the only way to get an injection was to have him do it. What a pain in the butt to have to make an appointment and waste several hours of the day, just to get a shot!

Fertility has never been a problem for me. I have achieved 5 pregancies in the past, the last one being just 3 years ago. No, I don't have 5 kids. Only two of those resulted in live births.....2 were miscarriage and 1 was ectopic. I know I was fertile before the HRT, but have no idea whether or not I am now. I'm just assuming that I may not be since two doctors have told me that.

Right now, I just want to get back to normalization of my HPTA. That way I'll be able to check and see where I stand with regard to an actual need for HRT. Maybe I'll try it again in the future, but at this point, I am pretty scared of this stuff. Ufa suggested that I might be feeling better in a couple of weeks. Is it possible that I could start producing test again that soon? From what I've been told, it is going to take much longer than that. I hope that Swale won't try to convince me to get back on HRT. I really don't want to. I am determined to get off of it and get back to how I was before I started it.

Thanks again for the good posts.

[Ufa]

It's all good.

[tex66]

I appreciate your opinion, Ufa, and if its true that Swale is not the guy to help me out here, then I'd like to have as much info as I can get. He has been recommnded to me several times, so I contacted him and am working on setting him up to consult with my doctor. All I'm wanting out of him is some knowledge that he can share with my doctor. If there is anything that can be done to get my HPTA going in a matter of weeks rather than waiting 4, 5 or 6 months, then I am eager to get started on it. That's all I'm hoping for by hiring Swale. I want him to tell my doctor how to fix me quick. Is this a bad idea? If so, please explain before I go through with it. Am I better off just waiting for natural prouction to return on its own, with no help from chemicals?

[Ufa]

Wisdom and experience. Money too.

[anabolicbruce]

what does that have to do with anything?

[anabolicbruce]

i'd rather kill you

[Ufa]

Is that a threat?

[tex66]

Hey dudes, I don't care if you want to hijack my thread to f*ck with each other as long as you'll not forget to address my questions. Don't want this to turn into something other than I intended it to be. I'm seriously looking for some advice from you guys. What else can you tell me about Swale and what he might or might not be able to do in my situation?

[tex66]

I am familiar with Dr. Crisler's website and have been in contact with him and his secretary several times over the past week. I'm planning to get him to work with my doctor because I think he is probably far more knowledgeable about this than my doctor is. Nevertheless, he has been unable to tell me whether or not there is anything he'll be able to do to speed up the process of HPTA recovery. I have only had email contact with him and he has not answered any questions other than those about scheduling for his services. He told me that he cannot offer advice to anyone unless they are his patient (which, of course, I understand). He has, however, suggested that I have not YET recieved appropriate HRT and that my life might be much improved if I did. If he is going to try to push more HRT on me, I don't even want to waste my time. I simply want him to assist my doctor in helping me to get off of TRT and recover my natural test production. Any thoughts on this?

[toc67guru]

my advice tex66 is ignore UFA he comes on here rubbishing everything a
and everyone !
impo anything he says should be ignored.
now in relation to yourself wait to see what swale has to say,tell him you feel the TRT you were given may have been premature and you wish to try to recover your HPTA to whatever that may be.ED can come from many conditions other than low testosterone.

this was written by swale in relation to his PCT:-

"I advise my AAS patients to use small amounts of HCG (250IU to 500IU) two days each week, right from the beginning of the cycle. This serves to maintain testicular form and function. It makes more sense to me to keep the horse in the barn, so to speak, then to have to chase it across three counties later on. I am also a big fan of maintaining estrogen within physiological ranges. Both therapies have been shown to hasten recovery.

Any more than 500IU of HCG per day causes too much aromatase activity. Some feel aromatase is actually toxic to the Leydig cells of the testes. You are then inducing primary hypogonadism (which is permanent) while treating steroid-induced secondary (hypogonadotrophic) hypogonadism (which is temporary--hopefully).

If 250IU or 500IU on two days each week isn’t enough to stave off testicular atrophy, then I recommend using it more days each week (as opposed to taking larger doses). In fact, I wouldn’t mind having a guy use 250IU per day ALL THROUGH the cycle. Those that have tell me they thus avoid that edgy, burned-out feeling they usually get. They also say they simply feel better each day. Subjective reports, to be sure, but they are hard not to appreciate. Especially when HCG is so inexpensive.

The testes are then ready, willing and able to again produce testosterone at the end of the cycle. LH levels rise fairly rapidly, but endogenous testosterone production is limited by lack of use. I also want to make sure a SERM, such as Clomid or Nolvadex, is at effective serum dosage (around 100mg QD for Clomid, 20-40mg QD for Nolvadex) when serum androgen levels drop to a concentration roughly equal to 200mg of testosterone per week. That is when androgenic inhibition at the HP no longer dominates over estrogenic antagonism with respect to inducing LH production. Of course, if the fellow has been doing Clomid or Nolvadex all along the way (and I now prefer Nolvadex over Clomid, due to the possibility of negative sides from the Clomid), he is all set to simply continue it at the end (no need to switch from one to the other). BTW, I see no evidence of any benefit in using BOTH SERM’s at the same time. I used to think a couple of weeks of the SERM was enough; now I like to see an entire month after the last shot of AAS (and migration of long to short esters as the cycle matures). Tapering the SERM is probably a good idea during the last week, as well.

I want my patients to stop taking HCG within a week after the end of the cycle. The testosterone production it induces will further inhibit recovery, as will using Androgel, or any other testosterone preparation, while in recovery. There is no escaping this, as there is no such thing as a “bridge”. Just because you are not inhibiting the HPTA for the entire 24 hours does not mean you are not suppressing it at all. IOW, you can’t “fool” the body—it is smarter than you are.

I like Arimidex during the cycle (in fact, consider use of an AI while taking aromatisables a necessity) but it ABSOLUTELY should not be used post cycle (even though it has been shown to increase LH production) because the risk of driving estrogen too low, and therefore further damaging an already compromised Lipid Profile, is too great (this also drives libido back into the ground—and we don’t want that, do we?).

All this is meant to get my guys through recovery as fast as possible (the real goal, yes?). So far, all of them who have tried it have reported they are recovering faster than when they have tried other protocols."

you could use 10 days of hcg at 250iu/day to recover any atrophy of the testes you may have experienced and use 20mg of nolvodex as hcg can amplify aromatisation.then use a clomid or nolvodex on a tapering dose over 4 weeks wait a few months and get bloods taken.
pct will help for a speedier recovery if in fact your HPTA can.better in my opinion than just stopping test and W A I T I N G !

[tex66]

The part about too much HCG causing toxic aramotase levels which could lead to Primary (permanent) hypogonadism is pretty alarming to me. I almost feel as if I don't want to use anything at all that might jeopardize my leydig cells recovery. If it is that toxic at doses above 500iu, then is there also some danger from lesser doses as well?

Also, toc67guru, you stated that PCT will help speedier recovery if, in fact, my HPTA can. This statement is a little alarming as well. Are you suggesting that perhaps my HPTA may not be able to recover? Is it possible that the 8 months of testosterone use that I have undergone could have caused an irreversible suppression of my HPTA? This stuff is pretty scary to me. Hell, without testosterone and strong libido, what is the sense in living? Seriously, who the hell would want to go through life with no libido?

After all that I have learned about TRT and HPTA suppression, I find it quite disturbing that my doctor would have placed me on TRT without doing any prior blood work and without informing me of the risks. When he put me on it, it was my belief that it was something that I could just stop at any time, no harm done. I had no clue that it was going to shut me down like this. I guess that's why I'm feeling pretty distrustful of doctors right now and am leary of any more chemicals.

Since there was no blood drawn prior to TRT, I will never know if my levels return to where they were before. Nevertheless, I will be content if I can simply regain the libido that I had prior to all this. Right now, it is gone. I'm wondering if all the reading I have done about low test may be having a psychological effect on my libido. Perhaps I am just expecting to have no libido because I know it is a symptom of low test? I doubt it though. I'm feeling pretty crappy and I seem to be avoiding thoughts of women simply because it frustrates me to know that sex is damn near impossible for me right now. This shit sucks!

[Ufa]

Morning Tex. Hope you are feeling better.

!

[tex66]

Thanks for the encouragement. If I could feel fine in 5 weeks, that would be incredible news. I have no idea how much it takes to totally shut you down, but I used Androgel for 5 months before any injections and I understand that that stuff can totally shut you down in a very short time. My urologist and endocrinologist both told me that I will definitely be completely shut down from this. I have not yetr spoken to the doctor who did this to me. I have an appointment on Friday. I mailed him a letter yesterday, explaining whats going on and asking him to agree to consult with Swale. Swale says I need to get my doctor to agree to consult, then pay him his consulatation fee, and then my doc should call him before I come in on Friday. Apparently Swale will talk to my doc and then order some blood work. I've heard lots of good things about Swale, but you have indicated that you don't think its a good idea for me to hire him. Nothing has been done yet, so I would appreciate knowing some details about your reasoning for thinking that I should not consult Swale. Thanks.

[toc67guru]

your libido is gone as your TRT dose imo is not an adequate dosage.
200mg/month of test is possibly 1/2 the dose you should be on if you are in need of TRT(approx 100mg/week of cypionate)to feel right.
this is why you feel like crap what test your body was producing has been lowered by using exogenous testosterone and the fact is imo your terstosterone replacement is not adequately dosed.
what i am saying is that without blood tests you do not know if indeed test levels were low(before starting androgel).
the fact you were low normal 5 years ago is what i am going on.so what i am saying is over those 5 years it may have got even lower so even if you do take a complete break ,without PCT it may take you months to get back to pre androgel test levels which may still be low.
pct will speed recovery but where it takes you(blood levels) is what i am unsure of.

i do not mean to alarm you.in fact everything is hypothetical as with having no blood test levels to go by we do not know if your natural test output was indeed low.

hold out for swale and see what he has to say,keep us posted.

[Ufa]

Sounds like you are on your way. Asta la vista!

[Ufa]

Best of luck.

[toc67guru]

ufa many men who end up using TRT have never used steroids but still became hypogonadal.
many steroid cyclers do indeed post cycle have hypogonadal symptoms however this is from a suppressed HPTA that can recover using serm therapy.for many this is indeed successful,for some it is sucessful at first but after repeated cycles they end up finding recovery very slow or impossible.
some even after 1 cycle cannot recover and have no alternative but to resort to TRT to feel normal.

you seem to be of the opinion everyone can always recover this is not the case!

[Ufa]

Hard to argue with the experts.

[toolman]

ufa many men who end up using TRT have never used steroids but still became hypogonadal.
many steroid cyclers do indeed post cycle have hypogonadal symptoms however this is from a suppressed HPTA that can recover using serm therapy.for many this is indeed successful,for some it is sucessful at first but after repeated cycles they end up finding recovery very slow or impossible.
some even after 1 cycle cannot recover and have no alternative but to resort to TRT to feel normal.

you seem to be of the opinion everyone can always recover this is not the case!

Toc don't waste your time. Ufa thinks he knows what he is talking about and is almost always errored in his advice. He tries to apply the extremely limited knowledge he has as though it applies to everything and this is why he ends up getting into arguements with everyone. Every time he has been challenged to back up his statement with any support or knowledge, he says my doc said so or Oasis is great, etc. Ask him for a recent photo to see what kind of body he has developed and he ignores it and posts nothing. It is only a matter of time before a mod shuts him down.

[tex66]

My endocrinologist did blood work on March 23rd, just 10 days ago. He said the results would be meaningless though because it had only been 13 days since my injection. They called and gave me the blood work results over the telephone, but they are mostly meaningless numbers to me. I'll post them here in case they have any meaning to any of you. Perhaps you could explain it to me.

Thyroid 1.04
PSA 0.6
Total testestosterone 349
Free androgen 38.2
Prolactin 6.0
Binding globulin 32.0

Does this tell me anything useful?

He has ordered bloodwork for me once a month for the next 12 months. I will see my other doctor in a week from now and may have blood drawn at that time again.

[anabolicbruce]

IMO an estrogen panel would make that bloodwork more informative. And it would be hard to gauge your natural test production since you took the last shot 13 days prior. It takes the body a few weeks (in some cases) to get the HPTA in the swing of things, and maybe even a few months before an accurate baseline can be established. I was took a year off of trt to see where my levels would fall, and tried everything in between to get it optimal on it's own with no luck going above 400ng!

There is a study out there showing that concurrent use of hcg along with your trt will maintain intratesticular testosterone ( i posted it b4), therefore allowing you to maintain testicular function and health while staying on trt as long as you can, IMO, never coming off. There is no reason to stop trt (as long as you need it) since research has shown low or sub-optimal testosterone to increase your risk of various diseases, not to mention quality of life is much better with optimal levels!

[tex66]

I have done a lot of reading about HRT in the past few weeks and I understand that it can be a great thing for people who need it. Perhaps I do need it, but maybe I don't. If I don't, I would prefer to stay away from it right now. Even if I do, I want to try to wait a while longer before starting it. I'm concerned about fertility and even though I have read about HCG and preserving fertility while on HRT, I still am seeing a lot of conflicting info about all that. Just to be sure, I would prefer to "go natural" for a while longer. I know I have always had good fertility in the past and I just don't want to screw around with that.

I've seen a couple of you guys mention a "few weeks" as the time it might take for the HPTA to get going again. This is something that I have been questioning everyone about and just can't seem to get enough info to satisfy my desire for knowledge.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I have an idea in my mind about how recovery should take place for me. I am thinking that I have suppressed my HPTA with all this exogenous test and now I'm producing none or extremely small amounts on my own. Since it has been about 23 days since my injection, most of the injected test is gone from my body. Maybe there are still some residual amounts, but very little of it left. My hypothalamus may or may not be producing any GnRH yet. If it is, it could be small amounts. Same with the Pituitary....it might be putting out some LH and FSH already, but perhaps in miniscule amounts. Even if the GnRH, LH, and FSH are being produced in sufficient quantities, my Leydig cells may be desensitized and are not responding to it. I assume that over the course of days or weeks, the Leydig cells begin to recuperate and may respond a little better each day. As time goes by, they will begin to produce a little bit more test with each passing day, until they reach their potential, which should be somewhere near where I was prior to starting the HRT. So far, am I somewhat correct in my thinking here?

Now, the part I am most curious about is how long does this process typically take without PCT and is there going to be a steady increase in production once it starts again? I know that blood work is neccessary in order for me to actually know anything for sure, but from experience, can anyone give me a good idea of when I will start producing Test again and how much will production increase over time? I know a couple of you have suggested a few weeks for it to start and then several months to get back to normal. If that is the general rule, then I guess I can live with that. The part that was so discouraging about talking to the endocrinologist was that he would not venture a guess on when production might start again. He just said we will have to monitor blood over time. Thats fine, but it would give me some peace of mind to know that I could expect things to start improving in a few weeks. He was not willing to offer me that hope.

I'm 40 years old now and, of course, have no clue as to how many more good years I'll have on this Earth. Probably not too many.....if I can make 60 or so and still be in decent health, that would be cool, but that is only 20 years away. When a doctor tells me it might be 6 months to a year before I have my test production back, I start thinking that this is going to be a total waste of one of my precious few years. I'm 40 years old and have a 29 year old girlfriend. I have no problem keeping up with her, sexually, when I have testosterone. Without test, I'm not worth a shit! I don't want her to get frustrated by my lack of libido and bail out on me. I need to get this crap fixed asap!

[Phyll]

Tex bro - I feel your pain. I am exactly in the same boat as you are, and in my case, I think the constant use of AAS has shut me down very hard. It was progressive, and things only got out of control after my 3rd cycle. I recovered with no major problems after my 1st two cycles. But after the 3rd one, two months after PCT, my test levels were at 130, LH was only trace. 130 test man, that sucks.

I too don't want to start HRT; I am only 30 years old, and fertility is a big concern, as I have no kids yet. I saw a doc who knows a lot about TRT and he wants me to start taking 200mg cyp/week (to be adjusted later according to blood work) but I decided to hold off...

RIght now, I am running my 3rd PCT, it's been roughly two weeks and things have only got slighly better. Libido sucks still.

However, I am under an amazing amount of stress in my life right now, so who knows how much that could be interfering with my recovery?

Anyway, keep us posted on what happens to you... Lots of us who are trying to recover natty test levels really need the info you could share with us on the board.

Good luck bro.

[tex66]

Phyll, I am also stressed out right now and I'm wondering if that might be detrimental to my HPTA recovery. Not only am I worried as shit about this testosterone issue, but I also have a major concern about the security of my job right now. There is a chance that my job may be cut and I'll be out on a job hunt in a few months. Then, to make matters worse, my girlfriend just decided that my worries about all this crap was stressing her out too much, so she just bailed out and went back to live at her dad's house. That was the absolute last thing I needed to happen to me right now. My biggest worry about all this was that she would not be understanding about the lack of libido that I'm going to be dealing with. I wanted to discuss it with her, but she never even gave me the chance. She packed her shit and went home to daddy! Now, I have all three of these things to worry about and I'm afraid my stress levels are going to hinder my HPTA recovery drastically. I have an appointment with my doc 4 days from now. I'm still waiting to hear from him so that I can arrange a consultation with Swale, but he didn't call me today. I hope it all works out. If I can keep my job, recover my test, and get my girlfriend to come home, I will be a happy guy. If all this shit falls through, I will be grieving and depressed for some time to come. Also, its only been about 24 days since my last test injection and I am already feeling like I'm losing strength and starting to accumulate abdominal fat. Maybe I'm just imagining it, but I feel like my muscles are weakening and I'm definitely putting on some fat around my abdomen. I get tired very easily and am unable to do much strenuous work without stopping to rest. Early in the day, my eyes start burning as if I need to take a nap or something. This low test crap sucks and I wish I had never allowed this to happen. I never had these kinds of problems with my natural test levels, so I hope like hell that I can regain what I had before. If so, I will never experiment with HRT again unless there comes a time that I have a true need for it. 24 days and feeling worse than ever.... I assume it is going to get worse before it gets better? A test shot sounds mighty inviting right now, but I'm going to hold out for my natural HPTA to have a chance.

[Phyll]

Sorry to hear about your gf... I hope everything turns out ok for you bro, just hang in there.

You'd be amazed at what stress can do to your phisiology. While hindering the HTPA recovery is definitely one of them, it is not the most important factor. There is obviously some underlying problem that gets exarcebated by the stress, IMO.

My doc wants me to do a pituitary RMI to see if there is any problem with it. See, in my case both my LH and Test are low, which indicates that the pituitary is not producing enough LH, a situation called seconday hypogonadism. In primary hypogonadism, LH levels are high while test levels are low... If that's your case, there is no PCT that will cure that. TRT is the only way to go.

I think you have to reevaluate why you started TRT in the first place. If you feel so lousy, the gel/shots cannot be that bad don't you think?

If you want to keep trying to recover naturally, be ready to wait - very patiently. It might take up to 12 months to become "normal" again. It looks like we are part of a small segment of the population who have serious problems recovering after introduction of exogenous hormones (such as TRT and AAS use.)
In reality, we might not recover at all.

It is tough to accept that, but it is a possibility you/I should be aware of. I understand exactly how you feel, I have been gaining fat around my waist too, workouts are an ordeal, I can't put on any muscle, and I feel lethargic most of the day, not only because I cant really sleep at night, but also b/c of the low test levels. It's been 6 months since my last cycle and I am far from 100% recovered. I still have two weeks left of PCT before bloodwork, so I'll keep my fingers crossed.

For you bro, 24 days... That's just the beginning; that's usually when PCT starts after injections of cyp anyway. It is up to your body to realize that it needs to do something to get the test levels back up, but that could take a long time, which could mean several months of no libido, low sex drive, hours "wasted" at the gym, etc.

Anyway, I just wanted to give you a little bit of perspective. You make it sound like TRT is the devil, and it really isn't. Your test levels decline as you age, and the older you are, the harder/longer recovery road you'll be facing.

I dont know what I am going to do if my bloodwork is not what I was expecting. I guess then it will be time to reevaluate this whole TRT idea and try to live with the fact I'll be taking weekly injections for the rest of my life. Sounds bad, I know, but who wants to be feeling like shit dude?

[tex66]

Yes, I think I do sort of consider TRT to be "the devil" right now. I know it has its uses and is the savior for many people. In fact, I'm happy to know that it is available in case I truly have a need for it. However, I was very happy with the way I felt prior to TRT. TRT should have never been administered to me without bloodwork having been done. I'm a little bit pissed at my doctor for suggesting TRT without checking my levels first. As I understand it, it is standard routine for a doctor to do bloodwork before prescribing TRT. Why the hell didn't my doctor do that? I think I had adequate testosterone prior to TRT. I've always had good muscle tone, even when I don't lift. I have a heavy growth of facial and body hair and my sex drive was always very strong. These are all indicative of adequate testosterone, I think.

Libido was never really an issue with me. I had an enormous amount of sex drive and was ready for sex at any time, day or night. The problem was that every once in a while I experienced some ED. Thinking back, it may have just been that my sex drive was TOO strong and I was having sex so often that I just couldn't get it up anymore. Sometimes I would use viagra and that remedied the problem nicely. The problem was that the Viagra was so expensive that I really couldn't afford to buy it. Therefore, I discussed it with my doctor and he told me that as men age, their test levels begin to drop and that maybe a little testosterone boost might help out. The way he explained it to me, I thought "a little testosterone boost" sounded like a magic pill! He did not inform me of any of the potential consequences of a "little testosterone boost". He told me nothing at all about suppression of the HPTA or the risk of infertility. Don't you think he should have done some blood work and explained all of this to me before putting me on it? He just said, "here, try this and see if it helps". There are probably plenty of guys who wish they could find a doctor who would so freely prescribe testosterone, but I'm wishing this guy would have played by the rules with me. I was completely unsuspecting of any of the side-effects.

Now, I feel like crap. I've been at work all day and just got home. Just to sit here at the computer and type is making me tired. My eyes are burning, as they do everyday by this time. I feel like I need a nap. I have never in my life been a person who takes naps during the day, but I can't muster the energy to do anything at all. I could go out to my gym and lift, but the thought of that is not a pleasant one. I love to lift and love the way I feel when I do, but right now I feel so weak that it would be nothing but frustrating and discouraging to even attempt it.

Three more days until I see my doctor. I don't know if he will order blood work at that time or not. My endocrinologist has ordered blood work once a month for a year and I will get blood drawn for him in about 10 days from now. From the way I feel, there is no doubt that my testosterone is hovering near nothing at all.

[Phyll]

You are totally right bro, the way and reasons you started TRT were totally out of line. THe protocol varies A LOT from doc to doc, but what yours did was, simply put, VERY BAD.

It is not easy to find a good doctor nowadays; after waiting a month to see them, all they do is spend a couple of minutes with you and think that bam, they have your case solved. Tough shit, it aint like that. I am really sorry you got into this situation because of negligence from your doctor. From now on, make sure you research A LOT before you put anything in your body. I guarantee you that right now you know a lot more about TRT and HPTA suppression than the majority of the docs out there, just from all the reading you have been doing. THe info is out there, you just need to look it up. Too much for trusting your doc though.

The good news is that if you had normal levels before, chances are they will recover. Could take a while, yes, but in the end it will all be worth it.

With all the stuff that's going on with you right now, I wouldnt blame feeling like crap only on hormonal imbalance. THere is a lot of other factors involved, especially the psychological ones. For instance, if you convince your body that you SHOULD be feeling like crap b/c of your test levels, trust me, you will feel like crap.

Now bro, calm down. You need to relax a little bit. I see your frustrations, I have been there too, but bringing this extra stress into your system will not do you any good right now. Be patient, hormones signaling and feedback mechanisms are very very complicated pathways that take a while to self-regulate after you mess with them. Keep your head up high dude, don't let your guard down, keep working out and eating healthy, give a chance for your body to recover. Keep reading and researching. What you're going through is a lot more common than you'd think.

Let me know what happens when you go to the doc, as I am pretty sure that whatever applies to you will apply to me as well.

[tex66]

haven't posted here in a while, but thought I'd drop in with a few numbers I have questions about. Just got some results from blood work and am hoping someone here might be abel to help me make sense of it all. It has now been almost 2 full months since my last injection and I just got lab results over the phone from doc. He's going to send them to Swale and then I suppose I'll hear from him sometime next week. Unfortunately, I didn't get everything written down as he was reading to me over the phone, so this is all I have for now.

Total testosterone=467

Free Testostosterone=102 (range of 34-194)

SHBG=22 (range of 7-50)

Free & weakly bound testosterone=222

Hemoglobin= 16.9

PSA=.63

LH=4.5 (range of 1.5-9.5)

FSH=4.9 (range of 1.6-8)

This is all I have right now. This blood was actually drawn at about 5 weeks after my last injection. Could these numbers still be indicating residual amounts of testosterone from the injections or is this test that I'm definitely producing myself? I intend to have blood drawn again very soon, but would appreciate any feedback on these numbers that you guys might be able to provide for me. I've definitely been feeling better in recent weeks, but I'm still getting tired pretty easily.

[Sust Man]

If I am not mistaken, I believe synthetic test is completely out of the system in 2 to 3 weeks tops. After 5, I don't think there is any way that those readings are anything other than you own natural production. Those numbers don't seem too bad, especially for only 5 weeks off of trt. In my opinion, be patient. Another month or two of waiting is much better than being placed on a "good" trt routine the rest of your life. I have been waiting 8 months to get my libido back to normal, and I will probably wait another 8 months if I have to before taking the trt plunge for life. By the way, "definitely feeling better" is a great sign.

[meathead320]

Wow, those numbers are awsome, very very good, at least when the goal is to have normal testicular function.





Mine have been low for over a full year since my last cycle. 14 months, and my testosterone came back even LOWER than last time!

4 months ago I was at 138 ng/dl, a month ago I was 114, and now about 3 days ago I was at 22 ng/dl.

THe oddest thing is that I can still maintain an erection. I am still over 200 pounds, but at about 22% fat.

Dieting does not help, and I have lost over 30 pounds of lean weight since my last cycle ended.

I did pct, 500 IU HCG, 40mg nolvadex for 4 weeks after my last cycle, continued the nolva for 3 weeks after that, and.... nadda

14 months later now I am down to 22 ng/dl for total testosterone!

I cannot even begin to tell you guys how my general well being and mood has been like these last 14 months.

[kaorialfred]

If I am not mistaken, I believe synthetic test is completely out of the system in 2 to 3 weeks tops. After 5, I don't think there is any way that those readings are anything other than you own natural production. Those numbers don't seem too bad, especially for only 5 weeks off of trt. In my opinion, be patient. Another month or two of waiting is much better than being placed on a "good" trt routine the rest of your life. I have been waiting 8 months to get my libido back to normal, and I will probably wait another 8 months if I have to before taking the trt plunge for life. By the way, "definitely feeling better" is a great sign.

I have to agree the numbers don't look that bad. One thing to ask and it may seem weird but my Dr. did it when trying to zero me in. I had good insurance and it covered blood work fully. I would actually get blood drawn ew for about a month 2 days after injection and then we switched time. Then we came up with the every week and not doing the every 2 weeks.

I had an endocrin, urologist, MD and HRT. You will pretty much get a diffrence of what and why it is to happen. My urologist didn't approve of HCG therapy. My HRT did. I listend to my urologist because his job or primary reputation was known for colon, testituclar cancer. So he was the top surgeron in the area that I lived in.
I went with his advice because he dose that inter workings every week. He also removed one teste for me when I needed it. So yes I have the up most confidence that he knew what would help me fuction downstairs properly because he deals with it all the time, form low test to ED that is what is MEDICAL JOB IS. I dont' have any problems with the way you are proceeding.

I just think you need to find a good urologist and a good endocrinologist. I actually went to this board and got more than enough info to quiz and egage both in meaninful care of how I wanted to proceed with MY HEALTH.

( the only thing that bugs me about the swale thing if you never actually get to meet the guy in person. I prefer to be withing driving distance of my Dr. That way if somethings wrong I can get too them quickly and get it resolved. I think you were kept waiting too long.)

JMO

[Mobligator]

Tex66, you said:
haven't posted here in a while, but thought I'd drop in with a few numbers I have questions about. Just got some results from blood work and am hoping someone here might be abel to help me make sense of it all. It has now been almost 2 full months since my last injection and I just got lab results over the phone from doc. He's going to send them to Swale and then I suppose I'll hear from him sometime next week. Unfortunately, I didn't get everything written down as he was reading to me over the phone, so this is all I have for now.

Total testosterone=467

Free Testostosterone=102 (range of 34-194)

SHBG=22 (range of 7-50)

Free & weakly bound testosterone=222

Hemoglobin= 16.9

PSA=.63

LH=4.5 (range of 1.5-9.5)

FSH=4.9 (range of 1.6-8)

This is all I have right now. This blood was actually drawn at about 5 weeks after my last injection. Could these numbers still be indicating residual amounts of testosterone from the injections or is this test that I'm definitely producing myself? I intend to have blood drawn again very soon, but would appreciate any feedback on these numbers that you guys might be able to provide for me. I've definitely been feeling better in recent weeks, but I'm still getting tired pretty easily.
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Your numbers are very good but probably too good - too soon. When I first went to an endocrinologist I had been taking injections from a doctor who suddenly died and I needed another doc to keep on my HRT. The Endo told me to go off of all injections and pills for a full 8 weeks. I did and I felt like sh-t after 6-7 weeks. But he told me it takes your body this long to get back to normal. You can see this just by doing the math. The half life of testosterone enanthate is 9 days so after 9 days you still have half of the juice in your system. After 18 days you still have 1/4 , and after 27 days you have 1/8, etc. After a full month you still have some exogenous test. left in you and your body hasn't even started to kick back into normalcy. Your LH and FSH has not had time to kick back in after being shut down from taking the exogenous test. You had your blood work done after only five weeks so in my opinion you probably should have another done after 8 weeks. You will most likely be very run down after being off everything for 8 weeks but I believe thats what most Endocrinologists will recommend.