Post workout slin nutrition

[j martini]

I know all about having 10g of dextrose per IU of slin and whey protein shake immediately after your post workout insulin, my question is in regards to the solid food meal that is advised 1.5 hrs or so later, usually most pepole advice chicken breast and baked potato for example.

I know the reason for this is that chicken is a low fat source of protein and baked potato is a simple carb to prevent hypoglycemia. My question is in regards to the use of chicken as the protein source in this meal, surely a further serving of whey isolate would be more beneficial during this time as it is assimilated faster than chicken, having a faster acting source of protein at this time would be more beneficial as the insulin is still active in your system and you could more fully take advantage of insulin shuutelling abilitys( more amino acids pushed into muscle at a faster rate to impove growth and repair).

Another benefit to having whey protein at this time would be that possibly less carbs would be needed overall to prevent going hypo thus less chance of bodyfat gain, the reason for this is that in the absence of carbs your body can convert protein to glucose and using whey would speed this process.

[Gear]

I see your point about having a WPI shake as it will get digested faster, and probably would have less fat too, but you have to remember that you can not rely on supplments. Your body will always react better to whole foods rather than processed nutrition such as protein powder. In terms of digestion, whole foods beat the powder, no question about that. The only time I suggest having a WPI shake is PWO because this is when your body is starving for fuel, and considering a WPI shake has a high protein content and is digested fast, it would be wise to have one then. However, you can have anther shake after your meal for additional benefits, but I would not count a protein shake as your main/proper meal.

As for your last quote regarding carbohydrates, your body will only start using protein as a energy source once it has run out of carbohydrates. Protein is its last option for energy. But I don't see why you would want to use protein to prevent hypo as well as feed your muscle cells too. Use carbs to prevent hypo, and protein as fuel for your cells. If you were to use protein to fight hypo you would have to use large amounts because your body won't use protein to fight hypo as easy as it would if you were having carbohydrates. If you use insulin and eliminate carbs, the whole thing becomes a lot more complicated. Stick with carbs and protein.

-Gear

[Big Bapper]

As above.......

[Bigmax]

I'm with gear on that one!!!!

[j martini]

I see your point about having a WPI shake as it will get digested faster, and probably would have less fat too, but you have to remember that you can not rely on supplments. Your body will always react better to whole foods rather than processed nutrition such as protein powder. In terms of digestion, whole foods beat the powder, no question about that. The only time I suggest having a WPI shake is PWO because this is when your body is starving for fuel, and considering a WPI shake has a high protein content and is digested fast, it would be wise to have one then. However, you can have anther shake after your meal for additional benefits, but I would not count a protein shake as your main/proper meal.

As for your last quote regarding carbohydrates, your body will only start using protein as a energy source once it has run out of carbohydrates. Protein is its last option for energy. But I don't see why you would want to use protein to prevent hypo as well as feed your muscle cells too. Use carbs to prevent hypo, and protein as fuel for your cells. If you were to use protein to fight hypo you would have to use large amounts because your body won't use protein to fight hypo as easy as it would if you were having carbohydrates. If you use insulin and eliminate carbs, the whole thing becomes a lot more complicated. Stick with carbs and protein.

-Gear

I see your point, i think maybe a combination of solid food and whey may be the best option that way you get the best of both worlds.

As for my last point that idea comes from author L Reas big fat bastards article about how to use slin with no carbs by using a fast acting protein source in large quantities to keep hypoglycemia at bay, this may be useful for those trying to use slin on a severe cutting diet, but certainly would not recommend it for those inexperienced with slin. If you havent seen the article a will try and find it.

[j martini]

Here it is for anyone interested.

Ask any of the elite who has become truly massive beasts which anabolic substance has had the most profound effect upon their physique and the answer from the largest mammals will unanimously be insulin. Though GH has brought to the forefront of competitive stages the well retained lean muscle mass tissue displayed beneath an onion skin exterior of today, it is the symbiotic relationship insulin has with all other physical enhancement chemistry that has made beasts what they are in the new millenium.


Insulin is predominantly a storage hormone in that it initiates a cascade of cellular events that result in up-regulation of cellular nutrient content. It obviously goes without saying then that supraphysiological plasma levels of insulin result in supraphysiological cellular levels of nutrients. This in itself allows for a highly anabolic effect known as an osmotic response. A cellular osmotic response is nothing more than an increase in water and growth potentiating nutrients intracellularly that has a effect similar to increasing the amount of air in a balloon. More air in the balloon means a larger balloon. More water and proportionate growth nutrients means a larger cell. Interesting enough is the fact that this also triggers another survival mechanism that tells the stretched cell wall to increase in thickness to accommodate the osmotic response. This is due to an up-regulation in localized IGF-1 and MGF production and the synergistic response initialize. Oh ya. That is anabolism in the form of hypertrophy. Unfortunately, insulin is quite anabolic to fat cells too.


Since insulin is the body’s main "storage" hormone it should come as no surprise to the reader that many diabetics and would-be beasts alike have become horribly fat as a result of improper insulin use and misguided dietary habits. Many bodybuilders have employed the 10-15 grams of carbohydrates per IU of insulin administered protocol with a great deal of success in spite of the inherent dangers of non-medical insulin use. However many, who have either become insulin resistant/insensitive or are genetically predisposed to inordinate adipose (fat) tissue accumulation, have endured a greater anabolism of adipose tissue than muscle. Some have foolishly put on more covering clothing and simply accepted this as a necessary side effect endured for the greater eventual goal. Others have added the additional potential negative side effects of heart arrhythmia/tachycardia, diabetes, and other not so fun stuff as well.


As I have pointed out many times before, adipose tissue is a major site for aromatase enzyme activity which in itself compounds the Big Fat Bastard problem. Many AAS (anabolic/androgenic steroids) are susceptible to the effects of aromatase enzyme conversion to estrogens as is endogenously produced (made inside the body) androgens such as testosterone. Obviously the greater the volume and activity of this enzyme that exists in the body, the greater the chance and degree of aromatization that occurs. Estrogen is directly anabolic to a minor degree to muscle tissue. Both fortunately and unfortunately it is highly anabolic to adipose tissue. Since estrogen is the hormone that induces female pattern fat deposits it is fortunate because a nice rack is a thing of beauty. Unfortunately I have as of yet not noted a single male bodybuilder who looked good or happy with boobs or any other fatty female attributes. So a greater degree of adipose tissue accumulation from insulin administration results in a compounded adipose tissue storage effect from aromatase enzyme susceptible AAS employment.


In some instances the result of this vicious cycle is bodybuilders who fail to ingest adequate calories during AAS protocols as a means of decreasing adipose tissue accumulation. Unless you are from another planet you realize this also limits muscular growth potential as well.


Before we discuss all of the interesting facts concerning the means of becoming a big fat bastard, it is necessary to have a fundamental understanding of the macronutrient product glucose.

GLUCOSE
Glucose is the body’s preferred energy substrate. Though the brain’s nutrient make-up is nearly 1/3 *****-3 fatty acids it is glucose that is without fail mandatory for continued sentience. So carb up a little and read closely as we learn a few things about the body we have been entrusted to play nice with.


When we ingest food stuffs in the form of the three macronutrients protein, carbohydrates, and fats the GI track introduces a series of chemical Action/Reaction Factors that result in the break-down of these nutrients to metabolic substrates.


Proteins = amino acids
Carbohydrates = glucose
Fats = fatty acids

It appears simple on the surface but in fact glucose can be converted to triglycerides and adipose tissue or lean tissue glycogen stores and toilet tinkle. Like wise fatty acids can be stored as fat or utilized as an energy substrate by the body’s tissues but it cannot be converted to glucose. This is interesting when one considers the fact that carbohydrates can become glucose or fat, but fat cannot become glucose (though the cellular mitochondria can use fatty acids as an energy substrate as a keto response). Protein is ultimately destined to become amino acids employed for cellular repair and growth or intimate moments with the bathroom. But certain amino acids called gluconeogenic amino acids can be converted to glucose too. This can be disastrous for a bodybuilder who hopes to be a beast one day since lean muscle mass is predominantly made up of protein in the form of amino acids and a complete spectrum is necessary. We will get to this later. For now simply accept that glucose is necessary for life and bodybuilding progress alike.


The average circulatory value for glucose allows for about only 4 grams of glucose. It is actually uncommon for blood glucose levels to rise beyond an additional 1.5-2.0 grams or to drop below the 4 gram mark. A healthy individual who ingests a meal containing 50-150g of mixed carbohydrates will realize the normal increase in circulatory glucose for only about an hour. Interesting thing here is that endogenous (made by the body) insulin secretion will remain elevated for an additional 2 hours after glucose clearing. When the same individual ingests 300g of carbs (Fat Bastard) at one time the resulting insulin secretion levels will be 300% above normal for an additional 7 hours after blood glucose clearing. This is clearly a highly anabolic environment, but after tissue glycogen stores reach maximum levels a grotesque amount of the excess glucose finds its way to adipose tissue. And don’t worry. If all of the existing fat cells are full, the body is way to happy to make new ones to secrete lots of aromatase enzyme. And herein awaits the key to greater lean mass tissue and a decrease in adipose tissue.

GLUCONEOGENESIS
Gluconeogenesis is the biosynthesis of new glucose. This means that glucose is synthesized from other substrates than carbohydrates or glycogen stores. Obviously since the only source of fuel for the brain, testes, kidneys, and erythrocytes is glucose the body in its amazing adaptive manner can manufacture glucose from other materials. Those who are up on keto diets are aware of the fact that the body can derive energy from ketone bodies (which are converted into acetyl-CoA). But that is an entire different topic for now. In short the body utilizes the carbon structures within substrates to create energy in the eventual form of ATP (adenosine triphosphate). ATP is cellular energy that, as readers are aware, is the body’s only energy currency. In the case of gluconeogenesis the carbon structures can come from other sources.


Triglycerides are structures consisting of three fatty acids adjoined by a glycerol molecule. By cleaving the fatty acids away from the glycerol molecule the body can utilize the freed glycerol molecule to make glucose through a series of conversions and subsequent carbon utilization.


With the exception of lysine and leucine all 20 (or 22 if you are of that school of thought) amino acids can be turned into TCA cycle intermediates which in turn allows for the carbon skeletons of the amino acids to be converted to pyruvate. The newly formed pyruvate can then be utilized by the gluconeogenic pathway to create glucose by way of another series of metabolic pathways. Let me explain that a little better. When glycogen stores in the liver and muscle are depleted the working/recovering muscles, brain and organs need another energy source. Catabolism of muscle tissue proteins to amino acids becomes the main source of carbon skeletons for the maintenance of mandatory blood glucose. As you will recall the body can clear 50 –150 grams of carbohydrates in only a few hours.


So how much muscle do you think the gluconeogenic adaptive process can munch in the same period of inadequate nutrient supply from diet? By the way, the amino acid Alanine is the favorite gluconeogenic snack with Arginine and Glutamine coming in as close seconds.

THINK ABOUT IT
In the presence of circulatory insulin elevation gluconeogenesis in the liver and muscle tissue decreases. During periods of circulating supraphysiological levels of amino acid muscle catabolism decreases. In the presence of both protein synthesis occurs.


So it would seem that the two choices a wanna-be beast faces is 300 grams of carbohydrates to induce a sufficient prolonged insulin spike and a Big Fat Bastard pose down or non-stop keto diets and declarations of "Hey, I may look like a weenie but I am really cut" for life.


The obvious solution is an elevation in both circulatory insulin and a corrected amino acid pool rendered highly efficient by design and not by chance.

Insulin administration is nothing new to the larger beasts of the bodybuilding world. Unfortunately neither is Big Fat Bastard status in the brief off-season. So it should come as no surprise to those who have entered the realm of the chemically enhance athlete to learn that insulin can make even the best genetically predisposed individual fat. It has been my experience that this is simply not necessary.


Insulin forces excessive amounts of amino acids into muscle cells when an adequate supply exists at the time of insulin exposure. Insulin also triggers increased muscle cell glycogen synthesis by way of positively effecting the rate limiting enzyme glycogen synthase. We also know the positive effects correct application of supraphysiological insulin levels has had upon the most catabolic pathway there is that affects muscle mass from reading my two prior books. Add to this the fact that insulin is synergistic to and with all other chemicals of muscular enhancement and realize the potential.


In relationship to goals it would seem evident that a protocol employing the attributes of insulin would necessitate the symbiotic relationship the hormone has with macronutrients as it applies to lean muscle mass tissue.



Muscle is more than 80% protein by dry weight.


ATP is the energy currency of muscular contractions, repair, and growth.


Glucose is the prime source substrate for ATP synthesis and mandatory for proper brain and organ function (yes, that one also).


Excess blood glucose will result in excess adipose tissue accumulation.

The Protocol
Diet

When this protocol was created its intent was rapid accumulation of lean mass tissue without an increase in adipose tissue deposits. Since the foundation of the diet was structured for efficient gluconeogenic dependant upon a correct ratio and amount of amino acids, a great deal of protein was consumed daily. The most effective protein intake minimum was the equivalent of 3 grams of protein per pound of bodyweight daily divided into at least 6 meals. Using a 200 pound individual as an example it was possible to reduce this slightly by simply eating 4 whole food meals daily providing 50 grams of whole protein each and sipping on whey protein drinks in water throughout the day

providing the remaining 400 grams of protein. I preferred whey protein simply because it is one of the only two drinkable products I am aware of that allows for actual hyperaminoacid response in the circulatory system. Casein, egg, and (some people still use it) soy proteins fail to clear the GI track at a rate significant enough to induce the necessary supraphysiological amino acid concentrations for the protocol. The fact that whey protein is easily oxidized by the liver should be the first clue to the reason why results are superior. By the way, the other is Human Profile by Hazardous Materials (it is nearly 100% absorbed)


So here is the kicker. Though fat intake could be quite high, total daily carbohydrate intake could not exceed 0.5 grams per 25 pounds of bodyweight daily. The reason is simple: The goal was to force the body to employ the gluconeogenic pathway as a means of energy production. Any degree of actual glycogen regeneration resulted in the body returning to the glycosis pathway which allows for adipose tissue accumulation. The reason this worked so well was simplistic in nature. The making of ATP through amino acid gluconeogenesis is very inefficient thus allowing for a huge calorie expenditure similar to what occurs during DNP utilization. During calorie expenditure the body does not store fat but it does undergo protein anabolism. When enough protein was ingested the result was always a net increase in lean body mass of 5-8 pounds by the end of a two week protocol. Not bad for an experienced beasts, huh?

Additional Supplements
Since exogenous insulin was utilized during this protocol and, as mentioned prior, the gluconeogenic energy pathway loves certain amino acids it is easy to realize that the normal ratio of amino acids derived from whey protein and whole foods was not likely adequate. A mixture of 4 parts Alanine, 2 parts Glutamine, 2 parts Arginine and 1 part Taurine was created and capsulated. The dosage ingested was 1 gram of the supplemental mix per I.U. of insulin administered daily divided into 2 post administration dosages.


The preparation for this protocol required a liver glycogen depletion period of 24 hours prior to initial insulin administration. This was done to initiate the gluconeogenic pathway prior to protocol onset thus preventing any loss of lean tissue growth potential.


Though only a total idiot would ever assume that non-medical exogenous insulin use was safe, the utilization of a fast acting insulin was the better choice for this protocol. The first reason of course being that short acting chemistry also means shorter periods of potential exposure to negative side effects like a coma. Second is the fact that it was necessary due to the relevance in liver capacity for glucose manufacture by way of gluconeogenesis. Running out of adequate glucose reserves would introduce a series of potential negative side effects that would have required the ingestion of dextrose to inhibit.

EXAMPLES OF INSULIN
Name of Insulin Start Activity Highest Activity Ends Activity Low BS
Very short-acting (Humalog) 10 minutes 1.5 hours 3 hours 2-4 hours
Short-acting (Regular/-R) 20 minutes 3-4 hours 8 hours 3-7 hours
Intermediate acting (Nor L) 1.5-2 hours 4-15 hours 22-24 hours 6-13 hours
Long-acting (Ultra Lente) 4 hours 10-24 hours 36 hours 12-28 hours
Combination: 70% N/30% R 0-1 hour 3-13 hours 12-20 hours 3-12 hours
Combination: 50% N/50% R 0-1 hour 3-12 hours 12-20 hours 3-12 hours

Humalog was administered about 15 minutes before an appropriate meal
Regular Type-R was administered 30 minutes before an appropriate meal
Low BS = Low blood sugar (Glucose).
As the reader can see when viewing the examples of insulin above, the employment of Humalog allowed for a total of 4 daily administrations of 10-15iu each and Humulin-R (Short-acting) only allowed for 3 daily administrations. This is not to say some have not increased the dosage or chose different insulin analogs, but it is to say that under these circumstances it was not necessary or more effective.


When looking at the following example consider these facts:


Testosterone suspension has an active-life of about 24 hours tough plasma androgen levels remain elevated for about an additional 24 hours.

Sex hormones such as testosterone and estrogens are inactive when bound by SHBG (sex hormone binding globulin) and free or active when not.

Insulin is a powerful SHBG inhibitor.
Insulin increases muscle glucose transporters and androgen receptors
Protocol Example

NOTE: This is for advanced users only. Always start out at a much lesser dosage. IE: 2iu's maybe post workout and work your way up from there. **********

Day...... Protocol
1. Testosterone Sus. 150mg
2. Humalog 10iu 4xd
3. Testosterone Sus. 150mg
4. Humalog 10iu 4xd
5. Testosterone Sus. 150mg
6. Humalog 10iu 4xd
7. Testosterone Sus. 150mg
8. Humalog 10iu 4xd
9. Testosterone Sus. 150mg
10. Humalog 10iu 4xd
11. Testosterone Sus. 150mg
12. Humalog 10iu 4xd
13. Testosterone Sus. 150mg
14. Humalog 10iu 4xd Day .......Protocol
15. Testosterone Sus. 150mg
16. Humalog 10iu 4xd
17. Testosterone Sus. 150mg
18. Humalog 10iu 4xd
19. Testosterone Sus. 150mg
20. Humalog 10iu 4xd
21. Testosterone Sus. 150mg
22. Humalog 10iu 4xd
23. Testosterone Sus. 150mg
24. Humalog 10iu 4xd
25. Testosterone Sus. 150mg
26. Humalog 10iu 4xd
27. Testosterone Sus. 150mg
28. Humalog 10iu 4xd



Testosterone Sus. = testosterone suspension


150mg of testosterone suspension created a great deal of estrogen since it originates as a non-esterfied AAS. Estrogen up-regulated the muscle cells glucose transporters called GLUT-4 and increased androgen receptor sensitivity. This also meant that the administered testosterone was free or unbound from its inactivating protein SHBG. A great deal of the hormone entering the circulatory system was quickly bound, though not before a serious degree of anabolism occurred. But there is a portion left bound and in reserve.

[Gear]

I see your point, i think maybe a combination of solid food and whey may be the best option that way you get the best of both worlds.

As for my last point that idea comes from author L Reas big fat bastards article about how to use slin with no carbs by using a fast acting protein source in large quantities to keep hypoglycemia at bay, this may be useful for those trying to use slin on a severe cutting diet, but certainly would not recommend it for those inexperienced with slin. If you havent seen the article a will try and find it.

If that's what L Reas said then he has given some pretty bad advice. As I said, using insulin with no carbs becomes very complicated and danegrous.

-Gear

[Bigmax]

Anytime you mess with slin its risky but when you mess with slin and you dont eat carbs its just plain crazy.LRea can say whatever he wants I'd love for him to practice what he's preaching.Believe me I know being diabetic.

[Gear]

I have actually heard of this "slin + 0 carbs" method, but I just don't see why one would do this instead of having carbs as well as protein.

-Gear

[Gear]

I just had a good look at the cycle set out that you pasted, and I am not sure if I am reading it right but it looks like that one day you have a shot of test, and the next you have a shot of insulin, then the day after test again and so on. If that's the case then I wouldn't skip days at all, I would take it every day PWO. Also he states 4 times a day at 10IU? That's 40IU p/day. Insulin is only necessary PWO, so once p/day. You can take it other times but its not necessary.

-Gear

[Bigmax]

Gear,What is your opinion on the having the 10iu 4times a day.I'm already diabetic(from genetics<my mom ,sis,grands all my family is)I would think it would not only be dangerous because of the sugar levels but the pancreas function.I know it works for me to manipulate my carbs and even having no carbs at all then I have one big carb day and pump humalog all day and I'm full as He**.But a sI said I'm diabetic.

[Gear]

Bigmax,

When it comes to insulin use for enhancing purposes, people such as yourself are in a totally different league. You have to take insulin more than once p/day so your body can function the way its supposed to. So you have no choice but take insulin more than once p/day. I wouldn't advise anyone that is diabetic to take insulin for enhancing purposes because their pancreas isn't operating the way its supposed to as it is. Take your insulin the way your doctor tells you to, not any other way. Look after your body bro.

-Gear

[Bigmax]

Yes you're right and I agree with you.What I was asking how dangerous is it for someone who is NOT diabetic to take it 4 times a day as suggested.I do see a diabetologist and we've worked on my insulin use in sliding scale cycle.Obviously for enhancing purposes and its worked.i'm about 279lbs..11% BF...I'm 6'.I want to thank you for answering me.I have trained with a few pro's and have (I feel i do)much knowledge when it cmes slin etc.But I can tell you know your stuff and when it comes to learning more I'm all for it.Thanks again.

[Gear]

Bigmax,

I must have missunderstood your question. Now I know what you mean.

Look bro, bottom line is that non-diabetics aren't supposed to take insulin at all. Some people believe excess insulin for the non-diabetics can cause one to become insulin dependant, some believe that can't happen. I haven't come across any proof stating you can become a diabetic due to insulin use, but somehow I still believe that insulin can cause dependancy because I have come across reports about BBers becoming dependant. Now is this because they used too much insulin for too long? Or is it in their genes? Who knows. But to me, its a bit of a councidence that more than one BBer has had this issue. This leads me to believe that you can become dependant due to insulin use. There are people on here that swear that insulin can not cause dependancy, but these people have also never provided any proof to back up their claims, not that I have seen anyway. There are also people that have used insulin for months and months and have had no problems at all. Obviously these people believe that insulin canot seriously harm you no matter how long you use it for. But, you have to remember that no one has studied insulin use and its side effects enough to know what kind of effects it could cause at the time or even years down the track. We know insulin use for enhancing purposes can cause hypoglycemia symptoms, and send you into a diabatic coma, but that's about it. We don't know if it can effect our health months or years down the track. I can't provide proof that insulin can cause dependancy either, but I have my reason for believing it can which is for the reason I stated above. Also, before I forget I was told by a doctor that a diabetic coma can cause brain damage. I have heard this in the past, but I never knew if that was true or not untill a doctor told me recently. If that is true, then perhaps that is another serious side effect we must consider when it comes to insulin use.

Hope I have made myself clear this time.


-Gear

[Bigmax]

Yeah you did,Thats exactly what my thinking was as far as Nondiabetics using insulin.Thanks bro.

[Gear]

No worries man, speak soon.

-Gear