Very worrying

[Kärnfysikern]

I didnt think I would ever se this kind of anti progress nonsense in europe. Especialy not from germany of all countries!! What the hell has hapened to that nation that used to lead the way in science and technology. Its disgusting.


http://www.the-scientist.com/news/display/23252/

http://www.euractiv.com/en/science/m...article-144641

http://www.catholicregister.org/modu...6&page_id=2015

whats next? are we gonna stop building telescopes because cosmology might not go hand in hand with christianity? Will funding be cut short to biology because theory of evolution doesnt agree with the bible?
I wonder what those morons oposed to stem cell research realy think. Dont they realise how many lifes that could be saved? Or the possibilities of extending our lifespan ect?

[RA]

Even if your not a Christian you should not be for killing babies.

[Kärnfysikern]

Even if your not a Christian you should not be for killing babies.

uhm and what has that got to do with stem cell research

[RA]

You get stem cells from an aborted fetus.

[Kärnfysikern]

You get stem cells from an aborted fetus.

or from the umbilical cord blod or from adults and other sources. Banning all stem cell research because one way of getting stem cells might be wrong is stupid.

If someone is getting a abortion anyway I dont se the fuss about using those cells either.

[RA]

If someone is getting a abortion anyway I dont se the fuss about using those cells either.

Killing a baby, then harvesting its stem cells like some kind of vulture. It doesnt even sound human.

[Kärnfysikern]

Not to mention the embryonic stem cells are taken form the embryo when the embryo is 5 days old. Its not a human its a bunch of cells with human dna. Its no more human than a piece of my skin.

But that isnt relevant since there is other ways to get ahold of the stem cells.

[Kärnfysikern]

Killing a baby, then harvesting its stem cells like some kind of vulture. It doesnt even sound human.

If the parent is going to get a abortion either way. Does it do anymore harm to put those cells to good use? I dont se the logic behind that. The embryo is gonna die either way.

[RA]

Not to mention the embryonic stem cells are taken form the embryo when the embryo is 5 days old. Its not a human its a bunch of cells with human dna. Its no more human than a piece of my skin.

But that isnt relevant since there is other ways to get ahold of the stem cells.

Of course there is. But, where do you think the abortion advocates are going to place thier support and money?

[Kärnfysikern]

I dont want to get into a discussion wheter a featus is a human or not. My point is that there are other ways to get ahold of stem cells and banning stem cell research doesnt make any sense because of those other options.

I dont understand how religious people can be opposed to ALL stem cell research. Embryonic stem cell research yes. But not all stem cell research. It must be because of ignorance.

[RA]

If the parent is going to get a abortion either way. Does it do anymore harm to put those cells to good use? I dont se the logic behind that. The embryo is gonna die either way.

Like I said. Its not human to be so heartless over an innocent human life. No way I would ever support it.

[Kärnfysikern]

Of course there is. But, where do you think the abortion advocates are going to place thier support and money?

so you propose that all stem cell research should be banned, sacrificing countless lifes in the future because of the cures that wont be developed and limiting our scientific progress because some pro abortion people might push for embryonic stem cell research?

[RA]

I dont want to get into a discussion wheter a featus is a human or not. My point is that there are other ways to get ahold of stem cells and banning stem cell research doesnt make any sense because of those other options.

I dont understand how religious people can be opposed to ALL stem cell research. Embryonic stem cell research yes. But not all stem cell research. It must be because of ignorance.

Ignorance, maybe. But that is generally how it is presented to the public.

You can get more stem cells and of better quality, apparently, from a fetus. I wouldn't mind the research as long as they stayed away from babies.

[RA]

so you propose that all stem cell research should be banned, sacrificing countless lifes in the future because of the cures that wont be developed and limiting our scientific progress because some pro abortion people might push for embryonic stem cell research?

No, see above.

[biglouie250]

its amazing. if it not for all these frigging road blocks in government christopher reeves would still be alive and probably walking again. i wish bill gates or some uber rich guy would just donate a billion dollars to stem cell research and say f*ck you to all the pretentious pr*cks in government. If GWB's daughters suffered from a spinal cord injury i bet he'd be all for stem cell research. Just like Cheney is not against gay marriage because of his daughter.....funny how people's "beliefs" change when something directly affects them.

[RA]

its amazing. if it not for all these frigging road blocks in government christopher reeves would still be alive and probably walking again. i wish bill gates or some uber rich guy would just donate a billion dollars to stem cell research and say f*ck you to all the pretentious pr*cks in government. If GWB's daughters suffered from a spinal cord injury i bet he'd be all for stem cell research. Just like Cheney is not against gay marriage because of his daughter.....funny how people's "beliefs" change when something directly affects them.

I don't believe that would change his mind.

[Teabagger]

Morally and ethically it is no different than the blackmarket for human organs. Innocents are kidnapped, the organs harvested, and sold. Of course the donor is dead...but you could argue this donor's life was not in the end sustainable due to poverty, or was of such a low quality of life that the donor is better off dead, and his death prolonged the life of a "productive" important human. hmmm, kind of indicates little respect for life, huh? Hmm, kinda like the argument for human "embryo" research...the fetus could not sustain life outside the womb...it may, in rare instances, have some congenitive abnormalities that would not allow it to live a "happy, fruitful" life...hmmm...some of the same arguments and rationale used by the illustrious Dr. Joseph Mengele...the unworthy have to be sacrificed for the good of people, and advancement of knowledge...

Medical science has in fact determined "life" begins pretty much at conception, so the question you have to ask yourself then is, when does life become valuable? And what does "valuable" mean?

[Kärnfysikern]

Ignorance, maybe. But that is generally how it is presented to the public.

To bad the general public is to stupid to realise they are beeing fooled...

You can get more stem cells and of better quality, apparently, from a fetus. I wouldn't mind the research as long as they stayed away from babies.

Seems like its not certain the embryonic stem cells are better. Maby they are more convinient or something but some experters claim adult stem cells are more promising.

[RA]

Plus, its is an hypothesis that stem cells hold the key to all these cures. They do not know for sure. To say Christopher Reeves would still be alive and walking if we would have dumped a bunch of money into stem cell research is ridiculous.

[The OutLord]

It`s meaningless Johan!!

It`s similar debate about abortion!!.

It`s Religon every thing about it!!!.

It is stupid.

Science proof of the super knowledge Is ok from Monday to Saturday.
But when you come to Sunday ther is God and that is the time Science is stupid!!.
Just put mony in the collecter over you heads in churth and god forgive you , then we can figth on Monday.

[Kärnfysikern]

Morally and ethically it is no different than the blackmarket for human organs. Innocents are kidnapped, the organs harvested, and sold. Of course the donor is dead...but you could argue this donor's life was not in the end sustainable due to poverty, or was of such a low quality of life that the donor is better off dead, and his death prolonged the life of a "productive" important human. hmmm, kind of indicates little respect for life, huh? Hmm, kinda like the argument for human "embryo" research...the fetus could not sustain life outside the womb...it may, in rare instances, have some congenitive abnormalities that would not allow it to live a "happy, fruitful" life...hmmm...some of the same arguments and rationale used by the illustrious Dr. Joseph Mengele...the unworthy have to be sacrificed for the good of people, and advancement of knowledge...

Medical science has in fact determined "life" begins pretty much at conception, so the question you have to ask yourself then is, when does life become valuable? And what does "valuable" mean?

did you read what I wrote that its possible to get the stem cells from adults

imo a bunch of cells doesnt make a human. But like I wrote earlier that isnt the topic since stem cells can be taken from other sources.

[biglouie250]

roidattack - i understand yours and others beliefs that abortion is wrong etc. However i dont understand why "pro-lifers" want to push their agenda on everyone. I mean if someone wants to have an abortion or have their fetus harvested for stem cells what business is it of yours? Does it affect you in any way? If its a christian thing then why care as you are going to heaven and the abortionist will go to hell? I just dont get why you want to ruin it for everyone. If you dont want your tax dollars to go to funding well there is plenty of things i dont want my tax dollars to go to but i dont protest them.....

[Kärnfysikern]

Plus, its is an hypothesis that stem cells hold the key to all these cures. They do not know for sure. To say Christopher Reeves would still be alive and walking if we would have dumped a bunch of money into stem cell research is ridiculous.

well will we ever find out if we dont give it a shot? Il support every possibility that can lead to longer and healtier lifes and possible cures to diseases.

No one knows what a new technology might lead to until that technology is developed.

[biglouie250]

Medical science has in fact determined "life" begins pretty much at conception, so the question you have to ask yourself then is, when does life become valuable? And what does "valuable" mean?

the scientific definition of life refutes this as a the conceived cells can not carry out all life processes to be deemed alive.

[Kärnfysikern]

It`s meaningless Johan!!

It`s similar debate about abortion!!.

It`s Religon every thing about it!!!.

It is stupid.

Im glad sweden is secular so we dont have to have that kind of bullshit here. To bad that the EU might be influenced by anti scientific nonsens. If that happens Il go around screaming for a withdrawal from the EU even though I am a very strong EU supporter.

[biglouie250]

one thing i find amazing is its historical context. Its like another "dark ages" of sorts where religious zealots stifle thinking and scientific progress. For nearly 500 years in europe thinking and progress was halted becuase of religious beliefs. where would we be now if scientists, philosphers, doctors and other intellects were allowed to freely practice. did you guys know that the ancient greeks invented the steam engine? one of many advanced ideas lost becuase of ignorance.

[RA]

roidattack - i understand yours and others beliefs that abortion is wrong etc. However i dont understand why "pro-lifers" want to push their agenda on everyone. I mean if someone wants to have an abortion or have their fetus harvested for stem cells what business is it of yours? Does it affect you in any way? If its a christian thing then why care as you are going to heaven and the abortionist will go to hell? I just dont get why you want to ruin it for everyone. If you dont want your tax dollars to go to funding well there is plenty of things i dont want my tax dollars to go to but i dont protest them.....

If your neighbor is stabbing their child and burying them in the backyard, what business is that of yours?


To me. No difference.

[RA]

To me its not religious. Its common sense.

[FranKieC]

well will we ever find out if we dont give it a shot? Il support every possibility that can lead to longer and healtier lifes and possible cures to diseases.

No one knows what a new technology might lead to until that technology is developed.

Totally agree

[Teabagger]

the scientific definition of life refutes this as a the conceived cells can not carry out all life processes to be deemed alive.

Not so biglouie...the medical definition of life, or death, is electrical brain activity...that occures days after conception. The functioning of other organs are not a prerequiste to the definition of life.

Johan I am not opposed at all to "adult" stem cell research, and actually support it...

[RA]

well will we ever find out if we dont give it a shot? Il support every possibility that can lead to longer and healtier lifes and possible cures to diseases.

No one knows what a new technology might lead to until that technology is developed.

I understand that. But to claim that we would have all these magical cures is not right. We dont know yet.

[Kärnfysikern]

Not so biglouie...the medical definition of life, or death, is electrical brain activity...that occures days after conception. The functioning of other organs are not a prerequiste to the definition of life.

How can there be brain activity before there is a brain?? After 5 days the embryo is still just a bunch of cells without organs.

Johan I am not opposed at all to "adult" stem cell research, and actually support it...

Glad to hear that to bad that most people cant separate and paint all stem cell research as shit. The church should alteast point out that they are against one specific kind of stem cell research and not all kinds. Or maby they are opposed to all kinds of stem cell research??

[RA]

the scientific definition of life refutes this as a the conceived cells can not carry out all life processes to be deemed alive.

So because it cant take a dump yet its not alive? You could say a baby doesnt have the means to take care of itself when first born therefore its not alive.

[Kärnfysikern]

I understand that. But to claim that we would have all these magical cures is not right. We dont know yet.

Well the worst thing anyone can do is just sit back and say that maby nothing good will come out of it and NOT react when bans are put into place. I HATE nothing more than seeing progress stunted because of uneducated voters manipulated by scare mongers.

[RA]

Well the worst thing anyone can do is just sit back and say that maby nothing good will come out of it and NOT react when bans are put into place. I HATE nothing more than seeing progress stunted because of uneducated voters manipulated by scare mongers.

I dont think anyone that would be against adult stem cell research.

[Kärnfysikern]

I guess you are equaly oposed to creating a embryo by taking one of your cells and putting into a egg and harvest that for stem cells? That just basicly a clone of yourself. But could still possibly grow up to a child.

[Kärnfysikern]

Does anyone know if the us funding ban is specificly for embryonic stem cells or for all kinds of stem cell research?

[RA]

I guess you are equaly oposed to creating a embryo by taking one of your cells and putting into a egg and harvest that for stem cells? That just basicly a clone of yourself. But could still possibly grow up to a child.

I wouldnt mind if you could figure out how to just grow the stem cells.
Not a big chance of that though.

[Kärnfysikern]

I wouldnt mind if you could figure out how to just grow the stem cells.
Not a big chance of that though.

well who knows Maby in time

[Phreak101]

Does anyone know if the us funding ban is specificly for embryonic stem cells or for all kinds of stem cell research?

It is simply for embryonic. Bush had to do it because his agenda is also pro-life, and it would not make much sense to be pro-life yet support embryonic stem cell research.

I personally think it's dumb, but a point for the Bush agenda would be that the private sector will be able to be more competitive in method and use of stem cell, rather than the government bloating the industry with how they see the funds should be distributed.