Conflicting Views on Off day DIet.....

[Columbus]

I have two trainers that actually are conflicting on what to do with an off day diet...one says keep everything the same...everything...including the high gi pw carbs in the evening...the other says to lower carbs as the day goes on but keep them early since I do am cardio.....so, can I get some thoughts and theories on what you'd do if this was your outlay....on a mild hrt dose, bulking 99% clean....

730 (60 CARBS, 40G PRO, 15G FAT)
OATS 1 CUP (IS THIS ONE CUP OR 1.25???)
1 TB OF PB
EGG WHITES 9
EGGS 1


10 (73 CARBS, 55 PRO)
OATS 1 CUP
CHX 6 OZ (cooked)
PINEAPPLE 1 CUP or LARGE BANANA?


1230-130 (60 CARBS, 50 PRO)
CHIKEN 60Z
YAM 10 OZ
HUGE SALAD!

PRE TRAIN (50G PRO, 18G FAT)
300-330 CASEIN 2 SCOOPS
PB 2TB

5:30 TRAIN

6:30:00 AM (25 PRO, 60G CARBS)
3 SERVINGS GATORADE
1 SCOOP PROTEIN
1 SERV. CREATINE, 1 SERV GLUTAMINE

700 (100G CARBS, 55 PRO)
CREAMERY RICE 3 SERV
WHEY 2.5 SCOOPS
OR
10 RICE CAKES
WHEY 2.5 SCOOPS


800 (80G CARBS, 50G PRO)
BROWN RICE 3 SERV
6OZ ROGUHY
ASPARAGUS 8

930 (28G FAT, 50G PRO)
PREBED
(CUBE STEAK) OR FLANK 8OZ
WHITES 4

9:45 BED!

[IBdmfkr]

I have two trainers that actually are conflicting on what to do with an off day diet...one says keep everything the same...everything...including the high gi pw carbs in the evening...the other says to lower carbs as the day goes on but keep them early since I do am cardio.....so, can I get some thoughts and theories on what you'd do if this was your outlay....on a mild hrt dose, bulking 99% clean....

730 (60 CARBS, 40G PRO, 15G FAT) Good but your fats are higher than 15g in this meal according to foods listed.. try20-25g's (remember oats/egg yolk carries fat
OATS 1 CUP (IS THIS ONE CUP OR 1.25???)
1 TB OF PB
EGG WHITES 9
EGGS 1


10 (73 CARBS, 55 PRO) I'd put the fruit in meal 1 inplace of the PB and substitute steak in place of chicken in meal 2 to make up for Fats
OATS 1 CUP
CHX 6 OZ (cooked)
PINEAPPLE 1 CUP or LARGE BANANA?


1230-130 (60 CARBS, 50 PRO) Good
CHIKEN 60Z
YAM 10 OZ
HUGE SALAD!

PRE TRAIN (50G PRO, 18G FAT) Why a shake, get another meal in brother.. Try 4-6oz chicken + 1 - 1.5 cup B.Rice, leave the fats out of Preworkout meal, slows absorbtion too much300-330 CASEIN 2 SCOOPS
PB 2TB

5:30 TRAIN

6:30:00 AM (25 PRO, 60G CARBS) Good, but on an OFF day this should be removed IMO
3 SERVINGS GATORADE
1 SCOOP PROTEIN
1 SERV. CREATINE, 1 SERV GLUTAMINE

700 (100G CARBS, 55 PRO) No need for 100 carbs, cut in half, go with solid protein source, you just took in a shake 30mins ago.. Go with a lean fish/chicken/turkey
CREAMERY RICE 3 SERV
WHEY 2.5 SCOOPS
OR
10 RICE CAKES
WHEY 2.5 SCOOPS


800 (80G CARBS, 50G PRO) Again, I'd cut carbs in half here
BROWN RICE 3 SERV
6OZ ROGUHY
ASPARAGUS 8

930 (28G FAT, 50G PRO) Good, add a Green veggie here, salad/green beans/broccoli - 2cups preferbly
PREBED
(CUBE STEAK) OR FLANK 8OZ
WHITES 4

9:45 BED! Maybe take in BCAA's before bed here, also I wouldn't have a meal directly before bed, I'd replace 9:30 meal with 10g's BCAA's even while bulking, you have plenty of macros/calories during the day to grow, this last meal will more than likely cause more harm than good.

Hope this helped a bit, btw as you see I don't believe the dextrose is needed on OFF days, it just doesn't even make sense. No need for the insulin spike mid/late day since you didn't train and deplete your glycogen levels. Do cardio in the AM if possible or 3hrs after training in the PM and then have BCAA's before bed.

Btw, just because these guys are trainers doesn't give them anymore credibility IMO from any other guy on the street. They give Certs to anyone nowadays.

[Columbus]

SO ALL You did was remove the fruit, which I really think is benefitial and will keep and cut the carbs in half on my off days but keep them in every meal...so no pro/fat meals in the pm instead of pro/carb...obviously no dext

[Columbus]

thoughts?

[audis4]

SO ALL You did was remove the fruit, which I really think is benefitial and will keep and cut the carbs in half on my off days but keep them in every meal...so no pro/fat meals in the pm instead of pro/carb...obviously no dext

What do you mean, "all he did?" He gave you advice on almost every meal....and trust me, it was needed. Your asking for advice yet your not accepting I agree with his recommendations.
For your PWO meal, I would replace the dex with 1 cup oats or whatever fits into your macros nicely.

[Columbus]

I think you missed my original question.....I was pondering the idea of reducing carbs on my OFF DAY...I am not changing my original layout as it has been working welll....My theory is why the hell would I need high GI carbs on an off day, like one of the trainers reccomended...I thought it would be best to switch to p/f after my third meal.....tis all bro.

[Columbus]

Also I am liking the fat/pro preworkout...no crash, good energy.....then my body kills the carbs immidiately after.....just my opinion Ive tried both and this works well for me.

[audis4]

I think you missed my original question.....I was pondering the idea of reducing carbs on my OFF DAY...I am not changing my original layout as it has been working welll....My theory is why the hell would I need high GI carbs on an off day, like one of the trainers reccomended...I thought it would be best to switch to p/f after my third meal.....tis all bro.

Good! apparently you missed my answer for your problem. 1 cup oats in place of your high GI carbs.

[IBdmfkr]

haha, I have no more advice.. I switched to a lower GI whole food carb after years of using dex PWO and loved it, many ppl are affraid to make changes or aren't experienced enough to notice the difference when they do make a small change. To your original question, there is no need for Dex when you aren't lifting, period.

[audis4]

haha, I have no more advice.. I switched to a lower GI whole food carb after years of using dex PWO and loved it, many ppl are affraid to make changes or aren't experienced enough to notice the difference when they do make a small change. To your original question, there is no need for Dex when you aren't lifting, period.

Dido.

[Columbus]

NO I have tried them both.....6 in one hand...I switch it up all the time....but you wrote "good" next to the gatorade...do you use it? training days of course...

[audis4]

NO I have tried them both.....6 in one hand...I switch it up all the time....but you wrote "good" next to the gatorade...do you use it? training days of course...

Read his last post

[IBdmfkr]

All whole foods, I don't drink shakes or any sugars during the day.

BCAA's are the closest thing I come to supplements.

[TR'05]

Your diet needs some work, that is forsure. I**m's suggestiong should be incorporated.

As for your original question, keep everything the same as usual minus a PWO shake. Your carbs will be lowered as a result.

[Columbus]

Dont need help with the diet, just an off day question....actually, I am pretty confident with it...thanks.

[Columbus]

Sorry - been out of town, but this is how I restructured my off day diet....agree?


730 (60 CARBS, 40G PRO, 15G FAT)
OATS 1 CUP (IS THIS ONE CUP OR 1.25???)
1 TB OF PB (NO PB ON OFF DAY)
EGG WHITES 9
EGGS 1

10 (73 CARBS, 55 PRO)
OATS 1 CUP
CHX 6 OZ (cooked)
PINEAPPLE 1 CUP (NO PINNEAPPLE)


1230-130 (60 CARBS, 50 PRO)
CHIKEN 60Z
YAM 10 OZ
HUGE SALAD!

PRE TRAIN (50G PRO, 18G FAT)
300-330 CASEIN 2 SCOOPS
PB 2TB
CHANGED TO 6 OZ OF MEAT AND VEGGIES (3OZ FLANK, 3OZ TUNA STEAK)
5:30 TRAIN (NO TRAINING)


6PM 8OZ FLANK STEAK

6:30:00 AM (25 PRO, 60G CARBS) (DUMPED)
3 SERVINGS GATORADE
1 SCOOP PROTEIN
1 SERV. CREATINE, 1 SERV GLUTAMINE

700 (100G CARBS, 55 PRO) (DUMPED)
CREAMERY RICE 3 SERV
WHEY 2.5 SCOOPS
OR
10 RICE CAKES
WHEY 2.5 SCOOPS


800 (80G CARBS, 50G PRO) (DUMPED)
BROWN RICE 3 SERV
6OZ ROGUHY
ASPARAGUS 8

ADDED 8OZ FLANK/CHICKEN + VEGGIES

930 (28G FAT, 50G PRO)
PREBED
(CUBE STEAK) OR FLANK 8OZ
WHITES 4

9:45 BED!

[audis4]

so 5 meals on your "off" day? I'm guessing you don't mean your eating that meal when you say "dumped."

[JohnboyF]

yup thats what he means....

[JohnboyF]

Sorry - been out of town, but this is how I restructured my off day diet....agree?


730 (60 CARBS, 40G PRO, 15G FAT)
OATS 1 CUP (IS THIS ONE CUP OR 1.25???)
EGG WHITES 9
EGGS 1

10 (73 CARBS, 55 PRO)
OATS 1 CUP
CHX 6 OZ (cooked)



1230-130 (60 CARBS, 50 PRO)
CHIKEN 60Z
YAM 10 OZ
HUGE SALAD!

CHANGED TO 6 OZ OF MEAT AND VEGGIES (3OZ FLANK, 3OZ TUNA STEAK)

6PM 8OZ FLANK STEAK




ADDED 8OZ FLANK/CHICKEN + VEGGIES

930 (28G FAT, 50G PRO)
PREBED
(CUBE STEAK) OR FLANK 8OZ
WHITES 4

9:45 BED!

A little more read-able... This would be his off-day diet. I belive.

[audis4]

list final macros

[Columbus]

Based off IBF’s diet…I have revamped a little bit of my diet….right now I am sitting at 6’1, 170lbs and about 9-10%....way too damn skinny off of a wrongfull overtraining and cut session that lasted close to 16 months….tell me your thoughts.


6:30am - 1cup Oats + 1scp whey + 1tbsn flax + BCAA/Glutamine + 25 g of protein from liquid egg whites
Prot(50) - Carbs(50) - Fat(10g)

9:00am – 6-8oz chicken breast + 1tb of pb +1cup oats.
Prot(60) - Carbs(50) - Fat(15)

12:00p - 6oz Turkey or lean beef + 8ozSweetpotato + Veggies
Prot(60) - Carbs(75) - Fat(approx. 5g max)

3pmp – 6oz tuna steak or lean beef + 1tb of olive oil.
Prot(60) - Carbs(minimal) - Fat(14)

4:45p (Train)
BCAA's <5g>
L-Glutamine + peptide <5g>
CEE (Creatine Ethyl Ester) <5g>

6:00p PWO - 2scp protein blend + &#189; cups oats, 6-10 rice cakes
Prot(50) - Carbs(75) - Fat(0)

7:15p PPWO - 6ozChicken or Turkey/1scp whey + 1 cup oats + 1cup Veg
Prot(50) - Carbs(50) - Fat(0)

900p Shake – 6-8oz chicken/lean beef, 1tb of flax
Prot(50) - Carbs(2) - Fat(15)

915 - BED

12:30a –If I wake up
Fish,chiecken or beef or a protein blend.
Prot(50) - Fat(10)

~Total Macros~
Prot: 400-450g
Carbs: 350-400g
Fat: 60-75g
Total calories (approx) = 3400/4000 =

[audis4]

Based off IBF’s diet…I have revamped a little bit of my diet….right now I am sitting at 6’1, 170lbs and about 9-10%....way too damn skinny off of a wrongfull overtraining and cut session that lasted close to 16 months….tell me your thoughts.


6:30am - 1cup Oats + 1scp whey + 1tbsn flax + BCAA/Glutamine + 25 g of protein from liquid egg whites Good
Prot(50) - Carbs(50) - Fat(10g)

9:00am – 6-8oz chicken breast + 1tb of pb +1cup oats.
Prot(60) - Carbs(50) - Fat(15) I personally never mix macros but do what works for you.

12:00p - 6oz Turkey or lean beef + 8ozSweetpotato + Veggies
Prot(60) - Carbs(75) - Fat(approx. 5g max) Good.

3pmp – 6oz tuna steak or lean beef + 1tb of olive oil.
Prot(60) - Carbs(minimal) - Fat(14) Good. I think I remember you saying you train just as well pro/fat opposed to pro/carb?

4:45p (Train)
BCAA's <5g>
L-Glutamine + peptide <5g>
CEE (Creatine Ethyl Ester) <5g> Good.

6:00p PWO - 2scp protein blend + ½ cups oats, 6-10 rice cakes
Prot(50) - Carbs(75) - Fat(0) Good.

7:15p PPWO - 6ozChicken or Turkey/1scp whey + 1 cup oats + 1cup Veg
Prot(50) - Carbs(50) - Fat(0) Good.

900p Shake – 6-8oz chicken/lean beef, 1tb of flax
Prot(50) - Carbs(2) - Fat(15) Good.

915 - BED

12:30a –If I wake up
Fish,chiecken or beef or a protein blend.
Prot(50) - Fat(10)

~Total Macros~
Prot: 400-450g
Carbs: 350-400g
Fat: 60-75g
Total calories (approx) = 3400/4000 =

Wow, diet looks MUCH better bro!! Macros look good. You have a nice wide variety of protein which I like. Try and eat those greens in most your meals. Nice work

[IBdmfkr]

Yup.. much better..

I don't find mixing macros matters much..
EX: What if you eat say Steak and Potato you are eating a fattier meat with carbs as opposed to chicken, flax and Rice.. is there a difference? I wouldn't think so..
How about salmon on Rice, how is that different than say eating Pork loin with Sweet potatoes or Rice. Meal timing, quality of foods being mixed, and total macros determine how your body will utilize the food taken in. Obviously a simple carb with a saturated fat would not be a great idea.

[audis4]

Yup.. much better..

I don't find mixing macros matters much..
EX: What if you eat say Steak and Potato you are eating a fattier meat with carbs as opposed to chicken, flax and Rice.. is there a difference? I wouldn't think so..
How about salmon on Rice, how is that different than say eating Pork loin with Sweet potatoes or Rice. Meal timing, quality of foods being mixed, and total macros determine how your body will utilize the food taken in. Obviously a simple carb with a saturated fat would not be a great idea.

Oh makes sense, I just heard "don't mix macros from swolecat" that's why I don't in my meals.

[IBdmfkr]

Yea, some agree with that logic and others don't.. but I think he means don't mix macros in the sense of mixing sugars and fats.. I may be wrong.
Then again he includes shakes in his clients plans which I try and stay away from with mine so you'll get different views etc with different ppl.

[Columbus]

thanks for the blessing bros....I hope it works out.......he also wants me to do no cardio for a minimum of two weeks and then re-evalutate...reason being, I am overtrained right now and severly underweight at 6'1 and 170 with sub 10%...then we will bring it back in...I have been doing a minimum of 20 mins everyday first thing in the am.....but I need to get my strength back. Starting to suffer from an eating disorder......thanks again!

[Columbus]

Oh and the two biggest problems for me will be the 2 cheat meals on the weekends he insists I have....havent strayed from a clean diet in the least for many years.....that's goona be hard.

Here's my split, but it might get revamped as well

300MG CYP/WEEK
300MG EQ / WEEK (ON WEEK 6)

M - CHEST/BIS
T - HAMMYS/CALVES/ABS
WED - DELTS TRIS OR OFF
THURS - DELT'S TRIS OR OFF
FRI - BACK
SAT - ARMS
SUN - QUADS/ABS.CALVES

[IBdmfkr]

Bro take some OFF days, you are severely overtraining, there is no way to go into the gym 5-7times/wk and have 100% intensity or even recover from the previous workout. I spend a total of 1.5-2hrs in the gym PER WEEK. I train Mon, Wed, and Fri for a max of 45mins/session.. Using a form of HITT/Progressive-Overload Training. Dorian, Mentzer, Branch Warren and J.Jackson all use a similar program I believe. Works wonders.
You must let your body recover for it to start the growth process, I see many people overtraining each day I go into the gym.

[JohnboyF]

2 cheat meals imo are not going to kill you... Plus it's goal deterimied. It lies in your your definition of cheating. I do remember you had a thread about eating boxes of oreo's and pizza along those lines.

2 meals at macdonalds yes...

But a bowl of whole wheat pasta and sauce is not that bad.. I mean you can cheat but you can also cheat clean ... Steak and beans, Home-made stir fry...

[Columbus]

I have whole wheat pasta with my gma at least once a week…not what he means by cheat…..he’s talking a nice size ice cream sundae from stone cold and a few sheets of pizza…ok, maybe 10…..or a quiznoos sub……something different….which I agree is also benefitial.


IBF – Some of your diet strategies I like, however I don’t think you’ll get me to follow your training…..although, I am curious as to your current routine, sets, reps…etc.

I may go down to 5 days a week and nix the 2-a-days with cardio, but I am still making gains in strength……can I see your routine?

[IBdmfkr]

I've done both routines bro and let me tell you the 2-3day/wk approach is where it's at. I even really liked the EOD training approach which came out to 7days of training every 14days, I give credit to this particular routine for getting me to the size I am today. When I was training 5-6days/wk I would constantly feel tired before/after my workouts, extremely exhausted and beat. I figured this was a good thing considering this type of training program was what Everyone followed. Over the years I've opened my mind to other programs and ideas, coming to the conclusion that the mainstream is doing everything much more unefficient and wasting countless hours in the gym that they could be using to for family/studies/hobbies/resting/growing etc.. More isn't better when it comes to training, plain and simple.

As far as my current routine, If I posted it people would freak out and call me crazy as they did Mike Menzter/Arthur Jones/Dorian Yates etc..
So I'd suggest you look into some of their books on Progessive Overload, High Intensity Training, and Max Contraction Training.
Authors are John Little, Aurthor Jones, and Mentzer.. Yates has a book coming very soon also which is supposed to be top notch.
These books all contain purely training advice and studies to back them, no talk of drugs and very little talk of diet.

TRAINING is where it's at. I am almost positive I will put on 8-10lbs if not more of actual muscle within the next year with these new training protocols without the use of any drugs.

[JohnboyF]

I've done both routines bro and let me tell you the 2-3day/wk approach is where it's at. I even really liked the EOD training approach which came out to 7days of training every 14days, I give credit to this particular routine for getting me to the size I am today. When I was training 5-6days/wk I would constantly feel tired before/after my workouts, extremely exhausted and beat. I figured this was a good thing considering this type of training program was what Everyone followed. Over the years I've opened my mind to other programs and ideas, coming to the conclusion that the mainstream is doing everything much more unefficient and wasting countless hours in the gym that they could be using to for family/studies/hobbies/resting/growing etc.. More isn't better when it comes to training, plain and simple.

As far as my current routine, If I posted it people would freak out and call me crazy as they did Mike Menzter/Arthur Jones/Dorian Yates etc..
So I'd suggest you look into some of their books on Progessive Overload, High Intensity Training, and Max Contraction Training.
Authors are John Little, Aurthor Jones, and Mentzer.. Yates has a book coming very soon also which is supposed to be top notch.
These books all contain purely training advice and studies to back them, no talk of drugs and very little talk of diet.

TRAINING is where it's at. I am almost positive I will put on 8-10lbs if not more of actual muscle within the next year with these new training protocols without the use of any drugs.

WOW , I** that's is so true. I feel like that constantly. Sluggish/Sleepy but it's just so hard to get around the mindset of the "staple" 5 day workout, you know? But this off-season starting mid october. I will try something diffrent to add some LBM.. So expect pms.. lol

[IBdmfkr]

Like Pinnacle constantly tells me "Turn your back to the crowd".. This statement is so true in itself.. many people get dragged into the mainstream training protocols, buying all the newest supplements, and constantly relying on drugs when these approaches fail to work..

Enough of my preaching on this, like I stated before people will not agree with something that has been distilled in their heads for years.. The supplement companies thrive off of this, so the BB'ing magazines etc will always push these programs on you and the masses will always follow.

[Columbus]

well....at least I know my diet is on point.......thats half the battle, if not more...;p

[IBdmfkr]

I'd actually say diet is a small portion of it and one of the easiest to dial in.. The more I read and really study into it, the training intensity and recooperation is where it's at.

[1buffsob]

I'd actually say diet is a small portion of it and one of the easiest to dial in.. The more I read and really study into it, the training intensity and recooperation is where it's at.

Did you feel this way 3 months ago?

I believe diet is a HUGE portion of it. But I do agree that it's one of the easiest to dial in.

Training.... not so easy.

[Columbus]

AGREED......

what is your theory on hamstring development? Ever hit smith squats feet out in front? THoughts?

[IBdmfkr]

Did you feel this way 3 months ago?

I believe diet is a HUGE portion of it. But I do agree that it's one of the easiest to dial in.

Training.... not so easy.

Not at all, I was in the dark about many things diet-wise 3months ago as I still am now, always trying new experiments etc on myself and clients. Really with diet as long as someone is consuming enough clean/quality calories above maintenance they will have the opportunity to grow.. That's where training comes to play, this will make or break an athlete on hitting their goals.. obviously you can't do one without the other so don't think I'm playing down the importance of diet in the least bit.

Working with Bobby for the last 6months has really opened my eyes to many different ideas and theories, I can't imagine where I'd be if he wouldn't have taken the time like he has. Definitely a blessing.

[Columbus]

So, do you ever include "dirty meals" to bump up the calories? I made
some of my best gains eating a footlong tuna on wheat from subway
postworkout in college. Weird, I know…..and I also used to include
a heavy weightgainer like N-Large before bed with two scoops of low
sugar ice cream.

Finally, I was given, as a gift, about 2,000 worth of EAS products. Low
sugar bars (carb sense) and those RTD myoplex carb sense drinks. Not sure if
I should include them for lean gains, or will the excess cals just be stored easier?
What would you guys do?

[Columbus]

Finally, how you would you tailor my revised diet for an off day? Lower cals?

thoughts.


6:30am - 1cup Oats + 1scp whey + 1tbsn flax + BCAA/Glutamine + 25 g of protein from liquid egg whites
Prot(50) - Carbs(50) - Fat(10g)

9:00am – 6-8oz chicken breast + 1tb of pb +1cup oats.
Prot(60) - Carbs(50) - Fat(15)

12:00p - 6oz Turkey or lean beef + 8ozSweetpotato + Veggies
Prot(60) - Carbs(75) - Fat(approx. 5g max)

3pmp – 6oz tuna steak or lean beef + 1tb of olive oil.
Prot(60) - Carbs(minimal) - Fat(14)

4:45p (Train)
BCAA's <5g>
L-Glutamine + peptide <5g>
CEE (Creatine Ethyl Ester) <5g>

6:00p PWO - 2scp protein blend + ½ cups oats, 6-10 rice cakes
Prot(50) - Carbs(75) - Fat(0)

7:15p PPWO - 6ozChicken or Turkey/1scp whey + 1 cup oats + 1cup Veg
Prot(50) - Carbs(50) - Fat(0)

900p Shake – 6-8oz chicken/lean beef, 1tb of flax
Prot(50) - Carbs(2) - Fat(15)

915 - BED

12:30a –If I wake up
Fish,chiecken or beef or a protein blend.
Prot(50) - Fat(10)

~Total Macros~
Prot: 400-450g
Carbs: 350-400g
Fat: 60-75g
Total calories (approx) = 3400/4000 =