Results 1 to 12 of 12

Thread: Brain cell apoptosis (programmed death) and testosterone : check my math

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Posts
    18

    Brain cell apoptosis (programmed death) and testosterone : check my math

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Ok, I read the news articles postulating that high levels of testosterone kill brain cells. The study states that "low" levels of testosterone (100 nano molar) don't cause problems, but "high" levels (1-10 micromolar) cause neurons to commit suicide. Alright, let's see if there's a danger.

    Normal testosterone levels are supposed to vary between 300-1000 (aproximately) nanograms/deciliter. That is TOTAL testosterone, I suspect that the study used pure, FREE testosterone, which is MUCH lower even in a steroid user. But let's do a worst case scenario analysis.

    Let's suppose our juicer is taking about 600-1000mg of supplemental testosterone and has a total test level of 3000 ng/deciliter in his serum. This is around the values some of the bros here report when they get bloodwork done.

    Converting : the molecular weight of testosterone is 288 grams/mol. So, 1 micromolar is 2.88x10-4 grams/liter. That would be 288,000 ng/liter or 28,800 ng/deciliter. That's 10 times what a reasonable steroid user might have in total testosterone. Only 1 order of magnitude is not as much margin as I'd like.

    But, this study was done with the concentration of testosterone, meaning the FREE testosterone concentration that got into the neurons. Normal range is about 14-70 ng/dl, and would not exceed 1000 ng/dl in even the most hardcore steroid abuser. The rest of the testosterone is bound and not contributing to the concentration the neurons see. So, a typical juicer under a gram would have about 200 ng/dl free testosterone -> 150 times less than the level in this study shown to be harmful.

    Also, note that "low" concentrations of testosterone according to the researchers, or 100nanomolar, is equivalent to 2880 ng/dl. Assuming that is free testosterone, then noone taking steroids is likely to even have a serum concentration that is considered "low".

    Someone please check my math : these were researchers from Yale, and they are trying to imply even in the abstract that their research applies to humans.


    I question who added the sensationalist "that stocky guy may not be able to help being dumb" line to the article. Clearly, that person didn't get out their calculator.

    Here's the abstract of the study :

    "Elevated Testosterone Induces Apoptosis in Neuronal Cells*
    Manuel Estrada12, Anurag Varshney1, and Barbara E. Ehrlich3

    From the Departments of Pharmacology and Cellular and Molecular Physiology, Yale University, New Haven, Connecticut 06520

    Testosterone plays a crucial role in neuronal function, but elevated concentrations can have deleterious effects. Here we show that supraphysiological levels of testosterone (micromolar range) initiate the apoptotic cascade. We used three criteria, annexin V labeling, caspase activity, and DNA fragmentation, to determine that apoptotic pathways were activated by testosterone. Micromolar, but not nanomolar, testosterone concentrations increased the response in all three assays of apoptosis. In addition, testosterone induced different concentration-dependent Ca2+ signaling patterns: at low concentrations of testosterone (100 nM), Ca2+ oscillations were produced, whereas high concentrations (1-10 µM) induced a sustained Ca2+ increase. Elevated testosterone concentrations increase cell death, and this effect was abolished in the presence of either inhibitors of caspases or the inositol 1,4,5-trisphosphate receptor (InsP3R)-mediated Ca2+ release. Knockdown of InsP3R type 1 with specific small interfering RNA also abolished the testosterone-induced cell death and the prolonged Ca2+ signals. In contrast, knockdown of InsP3R type 3 modified neither the apoptotic response nor the Ca2+ signals. These results support our hypothesis that elevated testosterone alters InsP3R type 1-mediated intracellular Ca2+ signaling and that the prolonged Ca2+ signals lead to apoptotic cell death. These effects of testosterone on neurons will have long term effects on brain function."

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    In the Fog with birddog
    Posts
    725
    That's interesting...thanks for posting...

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    somewhere
    Posts
    2,738
    eheh... interesting math... too lazy to look at it now... good point by u though...

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Thailand
    Posts
    33
    I heared about this on Fox news (American Al-Jezeera).

    I am a sports scientist, so I am interested in the findings. However I need to look at the research. Looks like BS though.

    A few thoughts though:

    "We were surprised, but it actually looks like estrogen is neuroprotective. If anything, there is less cell death in the presence of estrogen,"

    -Of course most steroids make you produce more estrogen - does this counter balance the effect? (sarcastically) - maybe this is a reason to drop the tamoxifen during a cycle!


    "Tests on brain cells in lab dishes"
    :aaok****t

    -This wasn't even a study on living humans. How can you make claims over experiments conducted in petri-dishes (bizzare!)


    "Apoptosis is an important thing for the brain - the brain needs to weed out some of the cells. But when it happens too frequently, you lose too many cells and causes problems."

    "These effects of testosterone on neurons will have long term effects on brain function,"

    Brain cells are being recycled all the time. The study didn't show there was permanent damage. It was not a protracted study and did not follow subject brain states over a prolonged period (during which testosterone would be normalised). It did not show brain regenerating effects on cessation of steroid use (of which we know occurs with other drugs).

    How the hell can they make these claims when they did not test for them- idiots!

    The study did not even measure the effects of other circulating hormones/ brain interactions in LIVING humans, with feedback mechanisms.

    "Next time a muscle-bound guy in a sports car cuts you off on the highway, don't get mad -- just take a deep breath and realize that it might not be his fault," Ehrlich said in a statement.

    What a wanker. It is so called scientist like this that make me sick. He is obviously not profesional making these kind of comments (and a skinny twat). These kind of wild claims (on anything form nutrition to cancer) are made all the time, with thinking being revised or completely reversed due to unsubstantiated so called science. These characters send out PR photos of themselves and contact news agencies in order to try to get exposure, improve personal self estime, to try and attract funding for their dubious endeavours, or just because they are ego-maniacs.

    "A similar process is seen in Alzheimer's disease, the most common cause of dementia in the United States, affecting an estimated 4.5 million Americans, and Huntington's disease, another fatal brain illness."

    This is complete nonsense! - Alzheimers occurs as a result of a build up of plaque in the brain, which inturn restricts blood flow; kills off brain cells and shrinks regions of the brain.

    "Our results suggest that the responses to elevated testosterone can be compared with these pathophysiological conditions,"

    Our results on the effect of testosterone in a petri dish

    - what a buch of total tossers!

    In addition. As someone who has written and papers and done some exercise physiology based lab tests, you will almost always get conflicting results when you look at multiple studies - sometimes giving completely the reverse opinion. Infact you can write papers to make say some kind off nutritional supplent, say, Gingseng look as if it greatly increases cardiovascular performance. You would just have to include the rogue studies that found this (huge numbers do not support such a claim) and exclude others.

    There was no mention of a control being used, or the competence of testers, facilities or environmental factors.

    This is just one study! - The scientific community will only accept something as a truth, if it has reproducable effects in hundreds of studies - even then some will argue.

    I doubt the professionalism of this buch of muppets making stupid statements to the press. They obviously are out to get a bit of glory and 15 minutes of fame.

    I suspect that they started out with the preconcieved idea that this effect would occur. This happens a lot, with testers WANTING an effect to occur. In my experience, you must have no pre-conceived ideas before conducting experiments/assesing data - otherwise it can have an effect on your findings



    O.K. got the paper now;

    Just a few thoughts:

    "Micromolar, but not nanomolar, testosterone concentrations increased the response in all three assays of apoptosis".

    This study was not conducted on living humans. Therefore- they know how much additional testosterone (whether micro or macromolar).


    The abstract quoted:
    Caspase-3-induced truncation of type 1 inositol trisphosphate receptor accelerates apoptotic cell death and induces inositol trisphosphate-independent calcium release during apoptosis.


    However in a Belgian study Inositol 1,4,5-trisphosphate receptor-deficient (IP3RKO) B-lymphocytes were used to investigate the functional relevance of type 1 inositol 1,4,5-trisphosphate receptor (IP3R1) and its cleavage by caspase-3 in apoptosis.

    Interestingly:

    Expression of caspase-3-non-cleavable mutant receptor, however, dramatically slowed down the rate of apoptosis and prevented both Ca2+ overload and secondary necrosis. (Assafa et al. 2004)

    It seems that the brain has a feedback mechanism!

    This could not be tested for in a petri dish!


    whereas high concentrations (1-10 µM) induced a sustained Ca2+ increase.I

    In agreement with Asafa's observations, "caspase inhibitors impeded apoptosis and the associated rise in [Ca2+]i. Both the staurosporine- and B-cell receptor-induced apoptosis and increase in [Ca2+] could be induced in nominally Ca2+-free and serum-free culture media, suggesting that the apoptosis-related rise in [Ca2+] was primarily because of the release from internal stores rather than of influx through the plasma membrane".

    -Internal stores are FINITE, thus the continual release of CA2+ would only be short term (if at all).

    In other words

    (Assefa et al. 2004)


    Elevated testosterone concentrations increase cell death, and this effect was abolished in the presence of either inhibitors of caspases or the inositol 1,4,5-trisphosphate receptor (InsP3R)-mediated Ca2+ release

    Yes, as we have previously established, this is a natural phenomena that occurs in the brain of a LIVING person. You have shown that your findings mean nothing in your own abstract.

    These results support our hypothesis that elevated testosterone alters InsP3R type 1-mediated intracellular Ca2+ signaling and that the prolonged Ca2+ signals lead to apoptotic cell death.

    No they don't - you just said that the effect was "abolished in the presence of inhibitors od capases/inositol 1,4,5-triphosphate (InsP3R)- mediated CA2+ release - this is a natural phenomenon in human brains - the feedback mechanism (via the previously mentioned caspase-3-non-cleavable mutant receptor!)

    I have spent a small amount of time to easily disprove these claims. I can't be bothered to research more, but I'm sure I could uncover a whole host of information which could show this sensationalist crap up.

    This study may be valid ,so as to show short term effects. However the noted feedback mechanism would negate effects in the longterm. There may be a downgrade of the feedback mechanism with prolonged use (those who abuse steroids and do not come off) - but that would have to be substantiated with relevant proof from relevant studies.

    As an aside:

    Actual values of concentrations of testosterone need to be measured in human beings over sustained periods, as it is not known how much testosterone can breach the plasma barrier.


    A BRIEF DECRIPTION OF THE MECHANISM OF BRAIN CELLS:

    A human brain has roughly 10 billion neurons. A neuron or nerve cell processes and transmits information from the nervous system. Neurons (most) comprise
    soma, dendrites, axons and terminals buttons. Neurons are polarised with an electical charge. They contain neucleolus and chromosomes (made up of long strings of DNA). These messenger RNA, assisting protein synthesis.
    Neurons are possitively charged (a mechanism of flowing pottasium ions), and thus retain a negatively charge ions in the cell. When pottasium ions are stimmulated, they cause an influx, thus effecting a possitive charge, or an action potential. After this event, the ions are exchanged at the nodes of Ranvier, with high sodiium concentrations pumping out potassium and sodium ions (sodium-potasium pump). The event occurs in 1/1000th of a second and restores the negative charge.
    I could go into more setail about chemical mechanisms, but it would be getting away from the point. Although it is important to note that Neuro-dilators, neuro modulatos and Hormones are released by the brain.

    Note hormones can stimulate bothe sides of the cell membrane and the cell neucleus. Thus they can alter behaviour - this does not mean that in excess (say in the case of increased testosterone) they KILL brain cells. They attatch to a binding site, like a lock and key mechanism. They "key" being known as a ligand. For this reason and others that I mentioned in relation to caspase-3-non-cleavable mutant receptors, I do not think cell death occurs at all.
    Should there be a disturbance in neural communication, the vesicle of a neuron collapses in on itself and mixes with the cell membrane, leading to the cell later being retrieved and recylced.

    THIS IS LIKELY TO OCCUR.

    The vesicles (that are filled with neurotransmitters) are then readily availiable to be re-used.

    Brain cells use a shuttle system in order to effect more or less receptors for a transmitting signal, aiding neural pathways, via synapse communication, to be formed and to MAINTAIN function (by assisting the creation of other pathways) following cell death (if any).

    Regulatory signals in the brain manage the number of receptors. The recycling of these receptors PREVENT THE WEAKENING OF SYNAPSES THAT OCCUR IN NEURODEGENERATIVE STATES.

    Unlike "drugs" Testosterone does not shut off recycling. As testosterone, as a hormone, is integral in neuronal communication; an increase should INCREASE cellular recycling! Testosterone does not cause any degradation and it does not decrease the activity of the receptors.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    somewhere
    Posts
    2,738
    wery well put.. thanks for your input!!!

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Thailand
    Posts
    33
    Me again. Just to say that if anyone is still worried, I can recommend a harmless drug that can improve your health and could perhaps be used to negate any SUPPOSED damage. It also improves mood, enhances LDL cholesterol oxidation and gives vascular protection. It acts as an antioxidant, of which it is particularly active in the brain. It is cardio-protetive and an antiatherogenic).

    THE DRUG: DEPRENYL (also known as Seligiline or L-Deprenyl)


    I shall highlight a couple of passages from Sabelli et al. 1996 –

    “Such an action could contribute to reported extension of life span associated with long-term administration of the drug.”

    “Prophylactic use of low doses of l-deprenyl may accord protection against vascular and neurodegenerative diseases associated with aging.”

    -If you believe “The Idiot Formally Known as Ehlrich” (T.I.F.K.E.),it is certainly something those of us on gear could do with! – with the additional added benefits mentioned above!


    Please exercise caution though, as you MUST NOT EAT FOODS HIGH IN TYRAMINE – see below.

    “Tyramine is found in many foods, including aged cheeses, some wines, beans, yeast products, chicken liver and pickled herring, to name just a few”. –Need to do more research here.

    At this point I would like to say that after looking into Ehlrich, it is clear to see where her motivation for these statements and erroneous study lies. I have found that most of her research centers around the efflux of calcium ions in the brain (as seen in degenerative brain disorders). She has even personally funded other scientists to do similar research. This rhetoric is just a sad attempt in trying to gain attention for her main pursuit - by doing terrible, poorly analyzed lab experiments and linking it to something completely non-analogous
    - Not what you would expect from a professor at Yale!
    Anyway, for those STILL concerned, the use Deprenyl might be prudent.

    I have posted some of my research on the drug below. Read it and draw your own conclusions


    Deprenyl is a drug that was discovered around 1964-65 by Dr. Joseph Knoll and colleagues. It was originally developed as a “psychic energizer,” designed to integrate some amphetamine-like brain effects with antidepressant effects. Also known as L-deprenyl, (-)-deprenyl, and selegiline, deprenyl has been intensively researched over the past 36 years - many hundreds of research papers on deprenyl have been published. Knoll has stated that deprenyl “...is an exceptionally lucky modification of PEA [phenylethylamine], an endogenous ... member of the family to which also the transmitters noradrenaline and dopamine belong.” Deprenyl has shown a unique and exciting pharmacologic/clinical profile. It is the only potent, selective MAO-B inhibitor in medical use.Deprenyl is a “catecholamine activity enhancer.” Deprenyl has been shown to protect nerve cells against a wide (and growing) number of neurotoxins. Deprenyl has also been shown to be a “neuroprotection/ neurorescue agent” when nerve cells are exposed to damaging or stressful conditions.
    Deprenyl (Selegiline, Jumex, Eldepryl, Movergan), a close structural relative of phenylethylamine (PEA), is a drug with a unique pharmacological spectrum. Whereas PEA and its long-lasting variants, the amphetamines, are mixed-acting stimulants of the sympathetic system in the brain, they primarily enhance the impulse propagation generated release of catecholamines (catecholamine activity enhancer, CAE, effect) and displace catecholamines in higher concentration (catecholamine releasing effect). (-)Deprenyl is the first CAE substance in clinical use devoid of catecholamine releasing activity. (-)Deprenyl is a highly potent and selective, irreversible inhibitor of B-type monoamine oxidase (MAO), a predominantly glial enzyme in the brain. The activity of this enzyme significantly increases with age. (-)Deprenyl, the first selective inhibitor of MAO-B described in the literature, has become a universally used research tool for selectively blocking B-type MAO and is still the only selective MAO-B inhibitor in world wide clinical use. In contrast to MAO inhibitors which strongly potentiate the catecholamine releasing effect of tyramine, (-)deprenyl inhibits it and is free of the 'cheese effect', which makes it a safe drug. Because its lack of the catecholamine releasing activity deprenyl is devoid of amphetamine like dependence capacity.
    DEPRENYL: MAO-B INHIBITOR EXTRAORDINAIRE
    By 1971 Knoll had shown that deprenyl was a unique kind of MAO inhibitor - a selective MAO-B inhibitor, without the “cheese effect.” To fully appreciate what this means, some technical background is necessary.
    Some of the most important neurotransmitters in the brain are the monoamine transmitters: serotonin, dopamine and noradrenalin. After being secreted into the synaptic gap, where one neuron connects to another, many to the transmitter molecules are reabsorbed by the secreting neuron and then disposed of by enzymes called “monoamine oxidases” (MAO). This prevents excessive levels of transmitters from accumulating in the synaptic gap and “over-amping” the brain. However, with aging MAO activity significantly increases in the human brain, often to the point of severely depressing necessary levels of monoamine transmitters. In the 1950s the first antidepressant drugs to be developed were MAO inhibitors.
    By 1968, further research had shown that there were two types of MAO-A and B. It is primarily intestinal MAO-A that digests incoming tyramine. Most of the MAO inhibitors that have been used clinically inhibit both MAO-A and MAO-B, however deprenyl has the unique ability to prevent tyramine from getting into noradrenalin-using nerve calls, and it’s only when tyramine enters noradrenalin nerve cells that control arterial blood pressure that it triggers the “cheese effect.” Deprenyl thus has a dual “safety lock” in preventing the “cheese effect,” making it far safer than other MAO inhibitors. At doses over 20-30 mg/day, however, deprenyl does start to significantly inhibit MAO-A

    “CHEESE EFFECT”: When most MAO inhibitors are used in people consuming a diet rich in a substance called “tyramine,” a dangerous, even fatal, high blood pressure crisis can be triggered. Tyramine is found in many foods, including aged cheeses, some wines, beans, yeast products, chicken liver and pickled herring, to name just a few.

    MAO-B breaks down dopamine and the “traceamine” phenylethylamine (PEA). At doses of 10 mg + per day deprenyl will inhibit MAO-B about 90%. MAO-B inhibition can significantly increase synaptic dopamine levels.

    Deprenyl (and its “cousin”, PEA) are “catecholamine activity enhancers”.
    Catecholamines refers to the inter-related neurotransmitters dopamine, noradrenalin, and adrenalin. Catecholamines are the transmitters for key activating brain circuits - the mesolimbic-cortical circuit and the locus coeruleus. The neurons of the mesolimbic-cortical circuit and locus coeruleus project from the brain stem, through the mid-brain, to the cerebral cortex. They help to maintain focus, concentration, alertness and effortful attention. Dopamine is also the transmitter for a brainstem circuit - the nigrostriatal tract - which connects the substantia nigra and the striatum, a nerve tract that helps control bodily movement and which partially dies off and malfunctions in Parkinson’s disease.
    When an electrical impulse travels down the length of a neuron - from the receiving dendrite, through the cell body, and down the transmitting axon - it triggers the release of packets of neurotransmitters into the synaptic gap. These transmitters hook onto receptors of the next neuron, triggering an electrical impulse which then travels down that neuron, causing yet another transmitter release. What Knoll and colleagues discovered through their highly technical experiments is that deprenyl and PEA act to more efficiently couple the release of neurotransmitters to the electrical impulse that triggers their release.
    In other words, deprenyl (and PEA) cause a larger release of transmitters in response to a given electrical impulse. It’s like “turning up the volume” on catecholamine nerve cell activity. And this may be clinically very useful in various contexts - such as Parkinson’s disease and Alzheimer’s disease, where the nigrostriatal tract and mesolimbic-cortical circuits under-function, as well as in depression, where they may be under-activity of both dopamine and noradrenalin neurons.
    Knoll’s research also indicates that after sexual maturity the activity of the catecholamine nervous system gradually declines, and that the rate of decline determines the rate at which a person or animal ages.
    Knoll therefore believes that deprenyl's catecholamine activity enhancers effect explains its anti-aging benefit. Knoll also believes that deprenyl's catecholamine activity enhancer activity is independent of its MAO-B inhibition effect, because in rats he has shown catecholamine activity enhancer effect at doses considerably lower than that needed to achieve MAO-B inhibition.
    Knoll’s work indicates that PEA is also a catecholamine activity enhancer substance. (16) PEA is a trace amine made in the brain that modulates (enhances) the activity of dopamine/noradrenalin neurons. (16,21) Autopsy studies have shown that while deprenyl increases dopamine levels in Parkinson patient brains by only 40-70%, deprenyl increases PEA levels 1300 - 3500%! PEA is the preferred substrate for MAO-B, the MAO that deprenyl inhibits. Paterson and colleagues have shown that PEA has an extremely rapid turnover due to its rapid and continuous breakdown by MAO-B. (21) Thus deprenyl's catecholamine activity enhancer activity has a dual mode of action. At low, non-MAO-B inhibiting doses, deprenyl has a direct catecholamine activity enhancer activity.
    At higher, MAO-B inhibiting doses, deprenyl creates an additional catecholamine activity enhancer effect, due to the huge increases in brain PEA levels that deprenyl causes, PEA also being a catecholamine activity enhancer substance. Many authors have pointed out the probable dopamine neuron activity enhancing effect of PEA in Parkinson patients taking deprenyl.
    Knoll’s discovery of PEA’s catecholamine activity enhancer effect now explains this PEA dopamine-enhancing effect


    Maintenance on (-)deprenyl selectively enhances superoxide dismutase (SOD) and catalase activity in the striatum and protects the nigrostriatal dopaminergic neurons from selective neurotoxins (6-hydroxydopamine, MPTP, DSP- Maintenance of an animal on deprenyl prevents the characteristic age-related morphological changes in the neuromelanin granules of the neurocytes in the substantia nigra. Many other protective effects of (-)deprenyl, denoted as 'neuroprotective', 'trophiclike neurorescue', 'apoptosis reducing', etc, have been described. All the protective actions of (-)deprenyl are thought to be primarily related to the CAE effect of the drug. All in all, (-)deprenyl increases the activity of the nigrostriatal dopaminergic system and slows its age-related decline. Maintenance of male rats on (-)deprenyl delays the age-related loss of their capacity to ejaculate, slows the age-related decline of their learning capacity and prolongs their life. Parkinsonian patients on levodopa plus (-)deprenyl (10 mg daily) live significantly longer than those on levodopa alone. Parkinsonian patients maintained, after diagnosis, on (-)deprenyl, need levodopa significantly later than their placebo-treated peers. Maintenance on (-)deprenyl significantly improves the performance of patients with Alzheimer's disease. It is concluded that patients developing Parkinson's or Alzheimer's disease need to be treated daily with 10 mg (-)deprenyl from diagnosis until death, irrespective of other medication. Because of the peculiar pharmacological spectrum and safety of the drug it may be advisable to combat the age-related decline of the nigrostriatal dopaminergic neurons in man by taking 10-15 mg (-)deprenyl weekly during the postdevelopmental phase of life. Prophylactic (-)deprenyl medication may improve the quality of life in the latter decades, delaying the time of natural death and decreasing the susceptibility to age-related neurological diseases.



    Effect of low-dose treatment with selegiline on dopamine transporter (DAT) expression and amphetamine-induced dopamine release in vivo
    Itschak Lamensdorf1, Shai Porat2, Rabi Simantov2 and John P.M. Finberg*,1
    1 Rappaport Faculty of Medicine, Technion, POB 9649, Haifa, Israel
    2 Department of Molecular Genetics, Weizmann Institute of Science, Israel
    *Correspondence to: John P.M. Finberg, Rappaport Faculty of Medicine, Technion, POB 9649, Haifa, Israel
    1. Chronic treatment with low doses of the selective monoamine oxidase (MAO) type B inhibitors selegiline [(-)-deprenyl] and rasagiline, causes elevation in extracellular level of 3,4-dihydroxyphenylethylamine (dopamine) in the rat striatum in vivo (Lamensdorf et al., 1996). The present study was carried out to determine whether this effect of selegiline could be the result of an inhibition of the high-affinity dopamine neuronal transport process.
    2. Changes in activity of the dopamine transporter (DAT) in vivo following selegiline treatment were evaluated indirectly by microdialysis technique in the rat, from the change in striatal dopamine extracellular concentration following systemic amphetamine administration (4 mg kg-1, i.p.). Striatal levels of the DAT molecule were determined by immunoblotting. Uptake of [3H]-dopamine was determined in synaptosomes from selegiline-treated animals.
    3. Amphetamine-induced increase in striatal extracellular dopamine level was attenuated by one day and by chronic (21 days) treatment with selegiline (0.25 mg kg-1, s.c.).
    4. Striatal levels of DAT were elevated after 1 and 21 days treatment with selegiline, but were not affected by clorgyline, rasagiline, nomifensine or amphetamine.
    5. The increase in DAT expression, and attenuation of amphetamine-induced dopamine release, were not accompanied by a change in [3H]-dopamine uptake in synaptosomes of selegiline-treated animals.
    6. The results suggest that a reversible inhibition of dopamine uptake occurs following chronic low dose selegiline treatment in vivo which may be mediated by an increase in endogenous MAO-B substrates such as 2-phenylethylamine, rather than by the inhibitor molecule or its metabolites. Increased DAT expression appears to be a special property of the selegiline molecule, since it occurs after one low dose of selegiline, and is not seen with other inhibitors of MAO-A or MAO-B. The new DAT molecules formed following selegiline treatment appear not to be functionally active.
    Sustained antidepressant effect of PEA replacement
    by
    Sabelli H, Fink P, Fawcett J, Tom C
    Rush University and the
    Center for Creative Development,
    Chicago, Illinois, USA.
    J Neuropsychiatry Clin Neurosci 1996 Spring; 8(2):168-71

    ABSTRACT
    Phenylethylamine (PEA), an endogenous neuroamine, increases attention and activity in animals and has been shown to relieve depression in 60% of depressed patients. It has been proposed that PEA deficit may be the cause of a common form of depressive illness. Fourteen patients with major depressive episodes that responded to PEA treatment (10-60 mg orally per day, with 10 mg/day selegiline to prevent rapid PEA destruction) were reexamined 20 to 50 weeks later. The antidepressant response had been maintained in 12 patients. Effective dosage did not change with time. There were no apparent side effects. PEA produces sustained relief of depression in a significant number of patients, including some unresponsive to the standard treatments. PEA improves mood as rapidly as amphetamine but does not produce tolerance.







    L-deprenyl (Selegiline) used in the treatment of Parkinson's and Alzheimer's disease also enhances longevity. Oxidized low density lipoprotein promotes atherosclerosis and is toxic to both vascular and neural tissue. The reported association between vascular dysfunction and neurodegenerative diseases prompted us to investigate the effect of l-deprenyl, a MAO-B inhibitor, on low density lipoprotein (LDL) oxidation. LDL was isolated from freshly collected blood and the kinetics of copper induced oxidation of LDL was monitored continuously by spectrophotometry. Oral administration (10 mg) or in vitro (2.8 to 84 microM) addition of l-deprenyl inhibited oxidation of LDL isolated from healthy men and post-menopausal women. This is the first report demonstrating that the antioxidant action of l-deprenyl may be antiatherogenic and cardioprotective. Such an action could contribute to reported extension of life span associated with long-term administration of the drug. In conjunction with inhibition of LDL oxidation, l-deprenyl is unique in that it demonstrates protective effects on both vascular and neuronal tissue. Prophylactic use of low doses of l-deprenyl may accord protection against vascular and neurodegenerative diseases associated with aging.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Farang
    I heared about this on Fox news (American Al-Jezeera).
    My american al-jezeera tells me your country listed (thailand) is having some problems with military coup's

    I think you have more things to worry about than to try to claim fox news is all propaganda that supports terrorism.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Pennslyvania
    Posts
    2,449
    clomid is an active estrogen in the brain right?(reason for depression, etc.) therefore could it help brain function??

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Thailand
    Posts
    33
    YOU SAID: My american al-jezeera tells me your country listed (thailand) is having some problems with military coup's


    Firstly, I am not Thai. Secondly I know much more about you about the current politaical situation. Thirdly thank god there was a military coup (supported by the king) - Thailand is the seconnd fastest growing economy in Asia. This despite the scumbag moron (Thaksin Shinawatra) who was previously prime minister. I could go into a huge list of his category of errors and disgusting behaviour- but all you hear on Fox Jezeera is reports that it is a worry in relation to Thailand being an ally on terror (I do not see why). There have been practically no ill effects on the economy and no disruption to everyday life and business, with no violence and no demonstrations against the totally peacefull and vast majority supported "coup", of which the head of the army is a moderate muslim.

    I think you have more things to worry about than to try to claim fox news is all propaganda that supports terrorism.[/QUOTE]

    -Why would I think that American news coverage supports terrorism?

    - they just show a blinkered one sided pro-republican, anti muslim view of world events (much like Al-Jezeera appeals to the minds of fanatical Muslims)

    Spot the republican! (by the way I am not against war in Iraq/Afganistan or action taken. They were barbaric regimes that needed to be removed from power for the good of humanity)

    Unfortunately, I only have Fox News to watch over here. Being English, and being used to intelligent news coverage - I never new this kind of crap existed. It is like the national Enquirer! Terror level: ELEVATED; AIR ATTACK LEVEL: ELEVATED - C'mon! It even has the cheek to advertise as fair and balanced - They generally talk 99% republican politics and have the odd token democrat on- who gets savaged and turned upon (ask Bill Clinton!).
    I've even heared them swear at democrats who do not share their opinion ("that's total bullshit!") - Hannity (complete arsehole).
    I always thought that news was just about reporting, and debates were suppposed to be balanced. They mostly express a one sided biased view and support or find excuses for Bush all the time.

    I could go on, but this is not the place - perhaps a relevant post about the topic would be useful.

    I realise this is not really the place for this kind of response, but his was a really stupid comment.
    Last edited by Farang; 10-05-2006 at 06:16 AM.

  10. #10
    Why do I feel like someone is trying to sell me something? All of a sudden we have a new member, who wants to talk about brain cell bs, then all of a sudden hes like "HEYYY GOT A GOOD PRODUCT FOR YOU"... kinda sounds like a salesman to me!

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Long Island, NY
    Posts
    1,984
    Nice post.

    Quote Originally Posted by Farang
    Me again. Just to say that if anyone is still worried, I can recommend a harmless drug that can improve your health and could perhaps be used to negate any SUPPOSED damage. It also improves mood, enhances LDL cholesterol oxidation and gives vascular protection. It acts as an antioxidant, of which it is particularly active in the brain. It is cardio-protetive and an antiatherogenic).

    THE DRUG: DEPRENYL (also known as Seligiline or L-Deprenyl)


    I shall highlight a couple of passages from Sabelli et al. 1996 –

    “Such an action could contribute to reported extension of life span associated with long-term administration of the drug.”

    “Prophylactic use of low doses of l-deprenyl may accord protection against vascular and neurodegenerative diseases associated with aging.”

    -If you believe “The Idiot Formally Known as Ehlrich” (T.I.F.K.E.),it is certainly something those of us on gear could do with! – with the additional added benefits mentioned above!


    Please exercise caution though, as you MUST NOT EAT FOODS HIGH IN TYRAMINE – see below.

    “Tyramine is found in many foods, including aged cheeses, some wines, beans, yeast products, chicken liver and pickled herring, to name just a few”. –Need to do more research here.

    At this point I would like to say that after looking into Ehlrich, it is clear to see where her motivation for these statements and erroneous study lies. I have found that most of her research centers around the efflux of calcium ions in the brain (as seen in degenerative brain disorders). She has even personally funded other scientists to do similar research. This rhetoric is just a sad attempt in trying to gain attention for her main pursuit - by doing terrible, poorly analyzed lab experiments and linking it to something completely non-analogous
    - Not what you would expect from a professor at Yale!
    Anyway, for those STILL concerned, the use Deprenyl might be prudent.

    I have posted some of my research on the drug below. Read it and draw your own conclusions


    Deprenyl is a drug that was discovered around 1964-65 by Dr. Joseph Knoll and colleagues. It was originally developed as a “psychic energizer,” designed to integrate some amphetamine-like brain effects with antidepressant effects. Also known as L-deprenyl, (-)-deprenyl, and selegiline, deprenyl has been intensively researched over the past 36 years - many hundreds of research papers on deprenyl have been published. Knoll has stated that deprenyl “...is an exceptionally lucky modification of PEA [phenylethylamine], an endogenous ... member of the family to which also the transmitters noradrenaline and dopamine belong.” Deprenyl has shown a unique and exciting pharmacologic/clinical profile. It is the only potent, selective MAO-B inhibitor in medical use.Deprenyl is a “catecholamine activity enhancer.” Deprenyl has been shown to protect nerve cells against a wide (and growing) number of neurotoxins. Deprenyl has also been shown to be a “neuroprotection/ neurorescue agent” when nerve cells are exposed to damaging or stressful conditions.
    Deprenyl (Selegiline, Jumex, Eldepryl, Movergan), a close structural relative of phenylethylamine (PEA), is a drug with a unique pharmacological spectrum. Whereas PEA and its long-lasting variants, the amphetamines, are mixed-acting stimulants of the sympathetic system in the brain, they primarily enhance the impulse propagation generated release of catecholamines (catecholamine activity enhancer, CAE, effect) and displace catecholamines in higher concentration (catecholamine releasing effect). (-)Deprenyl is the first CAE substance in clinical use devoid of catecholamine releasing activity. (-)Deprenyl is a highly potent and selective, irreversible inhibitor of B-type monoamine oxidase (MAO), a predominantly glial enzyme in the brain. The activity of this enzyme significantly increases with age. (-)Deprenyl, the first selective inhibitor of MAO-B described in the literature, has become a universally used research tool for selectively blocking B-type MAO and is still the only selective MAO-B inhibitor in world wide clinical use. In contrast to MAO inhibitors which strongly potentiate the catecholamine releasing effect of tyramine, (-)deprenyl inhibits it and is free of the 'cheese effect', which makes it a safe drug. Because its lack of the catecholamine releasing activity deprenyl is devoid of amphetamine like dependence capacity.
    DEPRENYL: MAO-B INHIBITOR EXTRAORDINAIRE
    By 1971 Knoll had shown that deprenyl was a unique kind of MAO inhibitor - a selective MAO-B inhibitor, without the “cheese effect.” To fully appreciate what this means, some technical background is necessary.
    Some of the most important neurotransmitters in the brain are the monoamine transmitters: serotonin, dopamine and noradrenalin. After being secreted into the synaptic gap, where one neuron connects to another, many to the transmitter molecules are reabsorbed by the secreting neuron and then disposed of by enzymes called “monoamine oxidases” (MAO). This prevents excessive levels of transmitters from accumulating in the synaptic gap and “over-amping” the brain. However, with aging MAO activity significantly increases in the human brain, often to the point of severely depressing necessary levels of monoamine transmitters. In the 1950s the first antidepressant drugs to be developed were MAO inhibitors.
    By 1968, further research had shown that there were two types of MAO-A and B. It is primarily intestinal MAO-A that digests incoming tyramine. Most of the MAO inhibitors that have been used clinically inhibit both MAO-A and MAO-B, however deprenyl has the unique ability to prevent tyramine from getting into noradrenalin-using nerve calls, and it’s only when tyramine enters noradrenalin nerve cells that control arterial blood pressure that it triggers the “cheese effect.” Deprenyl thus has a dual “safety lock” in preventing the “cheese effect,” making it far safer than other MAO inhibitors. At doses over 20-30 mg/day, however, deprenyl does start to significantly inhibit MAO-A

    “CHEESE EFFECT”: When most MAO inhibitors are used in people consuming a diet rich in a substance called “tyramine,” a dangerous, even fatal, high blood pressure crisis can be triggered. Tyramine is found in many foods, including aged cheeses, some wines, beans, yeast products, chicken liver and pickled herring, to name just a few.

    MAO-B breaks down dopamine and the “traceamine” phenylethylamine (PEA). At doses of 10 mg + per day deprenyl will inhibit MAO-B about 90%. MAO-B inhibition can significantly increase synaptic dopamine levels.

    Deprenyl (and its “cousin”, PEA) are “catecholamine activity enhancers”.
    Catecholamines refers to the inter-related neurotransmitters dopamine, noradrenalin, and adrenalin. Catecholamines are the transmitters for key activating brain circuits - the mesolimbic-cortical circuit and the locus coeruleus. The neurons of the mesolimbic-cortical circuit and locus coeruleus project from the brain stem, through the mid-brain, to the cerebral cortex. They help to maintain focus, concentration, alertness and effortful attention. Dopamine is also the transmitter for a brainstem circuit - the nigrostriatal tract - which connects the substantia nigra and the striatum, a nerve tract that helps control bodily movement and which partially dies off and malfunctions in Parkinson’s disease.
    When an electrical impulse travels down the length of a neuron - from the receiving dendrite, through the cell body, and down the transmitting axon - it triggers the release of packets of neurotransmitters into the synaptic gap. These transmitters hook onto receptors of the next neuron, triggering an electrical impulse which then travels down that neuron, causing yet another transmitter release. What Knoll and colleagues discovered through their highly technical experiments is that deprenyl and PEA act to more efficiently couple the release of neurotransmitters to the electrical impulse that triggers their release.
    In other words, deprenyl (and PEA) cause a larger release of transmitters in response to a given electrical impulse. It’s like “turning up the volume” on catecholamine nerve cell activity. And this may be clinically very useful in various contexts - such as Parkinson’s disease and Alzheimer’s disease, where the nigrostriatal tract and mesolimbic-cortical circuits under-function, as well as in depression, where they may be under-activity of both dopamine and noradrenalin neurons.
    Knoll’s research also indicates that after sexual maturity the activity of the catecholamine nervous system gradually declines, and that the rate of decline determines the rate at which a person or animal ages.
    Knoll therefore believes that deprenyl's catecholamine activity enhancers effect explains its anti-aging benefit. Knoll also believes that deprenyl's catecholamine activity enhancer activity is independent of its MAO-B inhibition effect, because in rats he has shown catecholamine activity enhancer effect at doses considerably lower than that needed to achieve MAO-B inhibition.
    Knoll’s work indicates that PEA is also a catecholamine activity enhancer substance. (16) PEA is a trace amine made in the brain that modulates (enhances) the activity of dopamine/noradrenalin neurons. (16,21) Autopsy studies have shown that while deprenyl increases dopamine levels in Parkinson patient brains by only 40-70%, deprenyl increases PEA levels 1300 - 3500%! PEA is the preferred substrate for MAO-B, the MAO that deprenyl inhibits. Paterson and colleagues have shown that PEA has an extremely rapid turnover due to its rapid and continuous breakdown by MAO-B. (21) Thus deprenyl's catecholamine activity enhancer activity has a dual mode of action. At low, non-MAO-B inhibiting doses, deprenyl has a direct catecholamine activity enhancer activity.
    At higher, MAO-B inhibiting doses, deprenyl creates an additional catecholamine activity enhancer effect, due to the huge increases in brain PEA levels that deprenyl causes, PEA also being a catecholamine activity enhancer substance. Many authors have pointed out the probable dopamine neuron activity enhancing effect of PEA in Parkinson patients taking deprenyl.
    Knoll’s discovery of PEA’s catecholamine activity enhancer effect now explains this PEA dopamine-enhancing effect


    Maintenance on (-)deprenyl selectively enhances superoxide dismutase (SOD) and catalase activity in the striatum and protects the nigrostriatal dopaminergic neurons from selective neurotoxins (6-hydroxydopamine, MPTP, DSP- Maintenance of an animal on deprenyl prevents the characteristic age-related morphological changes in the neuromelanin granules of the neurocytes in the substantia nigra. Many other protective effects of (-)deprenyl, denoted as 'neuroprotective', 'trophiclike neurorescue', 'apoptosis reducing', etc, have been described. All the protective actions of (-)deprenyl are thought to be primarily related to the CAE effect of the drug. All in all, (-)deprenyl increases the activity of the nigrostriatal dopaminergic system and slows its age-related decline. Maintenance of male rats on (-)deprenyl delays the age-related loss of their capacity to ejaculate, slows the age-related decline of their learning capacity and prolongs their life. Parkinsonian patients on levodopa plus (-)deprenyl (10 mg daily) live significantly longer than those on levodopa alone. Parkinsonian patients maintained, after diagnosis, on (-)deprenyl, need levodopa significantly later than their placebo-treated peers. Maintenance on (-)deprenyl significantly improves the performance of patients with Alzheimer's disease. It is concluded that patients developing Parkinson's or Alzheimer's disease need to be treated daily with 10 mg (-)deprenyl from diagnosis until death, irrespective of other medication. Because of the peculiar pharmacological spectrum and safety of the drug it may be advisable to combat the age-related decline of the nigrostriatal dopaminergic neurons in man by taking 10-15 mg (-)deprenyl weekly during the postdevelopmental phase of life. Prophylactic (-)deprenyl medication may improve the quality of life in the latter decades, delaying the time of natural death and decreasing the susceptibility to age-related neurological diseases.



    Effect of low-dose treatment with selegiline on dopamine transporter (DAT) expression and amphetamine-induced dopamine release in vivo
    Itschak Lamensdorf1, Shai Porat2, Rabi Simantov2 and John P.M. Finberg*,1
    1 Rappaport Faculty of Medicine, Technion, POB 9649, Haifa, Israel
    2 Department of Molecular Genetics, Weizmann Institute of Science, Israel
    *Correspondence to: John P.M. Finberg, Rappaport Faculty of Medicine, Technion, POB 9649, Haifa, Israel
    1. Chronic treatment with low doses of the selective monoamine oxidase (MAO) type B inhibitors selegiline [(-)-deprenyl] and rasagiline, causes elevation in extracellular level of 3,4-dihydroxyphenylethylamine (dopamine) in the rat striatum in vivo (Lamensdorf et al., 1996). The present study was carried out to determine whether this effect of selegiline could be the result of an inhibition of the high-affinity dopamine neuronal transport process.
    2. Changes in activity of the dopamine transporter (DAT) in vivo following selegiline treatment were evaluated indirectly by microdialysis technique in the rat, from the change in striatal dopamine extracellular concentration following systemic amphetamine administration (4 mg kg-1, i.p.). Striatal levels of the DAT molecule were determined by immunoblotting. Uptake of [3H]-dopamine was determined in synaptosomes from selegiline-treated animals.
    3. Amphetamine-induced increase in striatal extracellular dopamine level was attenuated by one day and by chronic (21 days) treatment with selegiline (0.25 mg kg-1, s.c.).
    4. Striatal levels of DAT were elevated after 1 and 21 days treatment with selegiline, but were not affected by clorgyline, rasagiline, nomifensine or amphetamine.
    5. The increase in DAT expression, and attenuation of amphetamine-induced dopamine release, were not accompanied by a change in [3H]-dopamine uptake in synaptosomes of selegiline-treated animals.
    6. The results suggest that a reversible inhibition of dopamine uptake occurs following chronic low dose selegiline treatment in vivo which may be mediated by an increase in endogenous MAO-B substrates such as 2-phenylethylamine, rather than by the inhibitor molecule or its metabolites. Increased DAT expression appears to be a special property of the selegiline molecule, since it occurs after one low dose of selegiline, and is not seen with other inhibitors of MAO-A or MAO-B. The new DAT molecules formed following selegiline treatment appear not to be functionally active.
    Sustained antidepressant effect of PEA replacement
    by
    Sabelli H, Fink P, Fawcett J, Tom C
    Rush University and the
    Center for Creative Development,
    Chicago, Illinois, USA.
    J Neuropsychiatry Clin Neurosci 1996 Spring; 8(2):168-71

    ABSTRACT
    Phenylethylamine (PEA), an endogenous neuroamine, increases attention and activity in animals and has been shown to relieve depression in 60% of depressed patients. It has been proposed that PEA deficit may be the cause of a common form of depressive illness. Fourteen patients with major depressive episodes that responded to PEA treatment (10-60 mg orally per day, with 10 mg/day selegiline to prevent rapid PEA destruction) were reexamined 20 to 50 weeks later. The antidepressant response had been maintained in 12 patients. Effective dosage did not change with time. There were no apparent side effects. PEA produces sustained relief of depression in a significant number of patients, including some unresponsive to the standard treatments. PEA improves mood as rapidly as amphetamine but does not produce tolerance.







    L-deprenyl (Selegiline) used in the treatment of Parkinson's and Alzheimer's disease also enhances longevity. Oxidized low density lipoprotein promotes atherosclerosis and is toxic to both vascular and neural tissue. The reported association between vascular dysfunction and neurodegenerative diseases prompted us to investigate the effect of l-deprenyl, a MAO-B inhibitor, on low density lipoprotein (LDL) oxidation. LDL was isolated from freshly collected blood and the kinetics of copper induced oxidation of LDL was monitored continuously by spectrophotometry. Oral administration (10 mg) or in vitro (2.8 to 84 microM) addition of l-deprenyl inhibited oxidation of LDL isolated from healthy men and post-menopausal women. This is the first report demonstrating that the antioxidant action of l-deprenyl may be antiatherogenic and cardioprotective. Such an action could contribute to reported extension of life span associated with long-term administration of the drug. In conjunction with inhibition of LDL oxidation, l-deprenyl is unique in that it demonstrates protective effects on both vascular and neuronal tissue. Prophylactic use of low doses of l-deprenyl may accord protection against vascular and neurodegenerative diseases associated with aging.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Thailand
    Posts
    33
    Quote Originally Posted by boarder034
    Why do I feel like someone is trying to sell me something? All of a sudden we have a new member, who wants to talk about brain cell bs, then all of a sudden hes like "HEYYY GOT A GOOD PRODUCT FOR YOU"... kinda sounds like a salesman to me!
    FUNNY YOU SHOULD SAY THAT....... no, I'm not gonna sell a product. However I did spend 5 months researching and formulating 5 different products that I hoped to get manufactured in a factory in Wales. - Was going to cost 20,000 pounds though, so I decided against it in the end - have a business over here.
    I'm not being big-headed (well maybe a little) but the stuff I designed is EASILY superior to any other comparible product- dosages, standardizations and supplemental combinations of things worked out through scientific test results.
    Give me an email if you want any supplement advice, happy to help.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •