HCG during a cycle?

**realjo1000** · 10-07-2006, 03:17 PM

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**Random** · 10-07-2006, 03:20 PM

HCG is great during a cycle every 4-6 days at 500ius or so....from my experience its overpriced for the most part...but it will certainly help you retain gains post cycle as well as recover your test levels faster too

**realjo1000** · 10-07-2006, 03:24 PM

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**Random** · 10-07-2006, 03:47 PM

Trust me, if you have the cash definitely get HCG and run it constant throughout cycle, i get bloodwork done after every cycle and i was recovered in a little over 4 wks of PCT!

**realjo1000** · 10-07-2006, 05:54 PM

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**cfiler** · 10-07-2006, 06:37 PM

I haven't seen any lab tests done that show that HCG used during a cycle is beficial, but I would expect that it would help.

If you have the cash, try it out. It's definately not going to hurt anything.

**skipp** · 10-07-2006, 07:08 PM

Wow, i thought hcg was relatively cheap.. Like 20 junior bacon cheeseburgers. lol

**hosam4ever** · 10-07-2006, 07:12 PM

i found hcg the greatest add 2 any cycle or pct

**realjo1000** · 10-07-2006, 09:08 PM

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**realjo1000** · 10-08-2006, 03:31 PM

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**pumpd4lif** · 10-08-2006, 03:55 PM

Originally Posted by realjo1000

I've read that HCG is suppressive of natural testosterone and raises estrogen levels and my have a de-sensitizing effect on leydig cells if taken for longer than 20 days.

is it still wise to take HCG during a cycle?

there was a study that stated what u said but i think that was in high dosages
hcg is much safer and just as effective in small dosage and actually have a positive effect on the prostate.at low dosaes i has the ability to shrink non cancer prostate growth.

**thegodfather** · 10-08-2006, 04:04 PM

Nolvadex at 20mgs/ED will prevent desensitization of the leydig cells...

**realjo1000** · 10-08-2006, 04:09 PM

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**mesoman** · 10-08-2006, 04:26 PM

good post guys, the thrad has answere my question, im hgoing o start hcg 500 iu every 3 days for the last 2 weeks of a 14 week test/tren cycle as inorder to reduce time needed for pct. AS for the cost, when u thin about the cost of the gains u make during cycle time/nutrition/ supplements ! etc, everythink you loose post cycle is a cost too so if u need to spend more to keep more of your expensive muscle thn spend it thats what i say.

**SMAN12b** · 10-09-2006, 12:14 AM

I just finished my 14 week cycle of Test E/Deca/Winny. Used HCG throughout the entire cycle three times a week at 300iu's each time. LOVED it.
Will include it in all cycles from now on as my nuts never shrank and recovery is going great!!
JMHO

**The_Canibal** · 10-09-2006, 12:31 AM

Originally Posted by SMAN12B

I just finished my 14 week cycle of Test E/Deca/Winny. Used HCG throughout the entire cycle three times a week at 300iu's each time. LOVED it.
Will include it in all cycles from now on as my nuts never shrank and recovery is going great!!
JMHO

did u recover faster?did u get bloodwork?did u keeep the gains?
thx

**SMAN12b** · 10-09-2006, 12:43 AM

well like I stated, JUST finished the cycle, so didn't get bloodwork done yet. But so far, during the cycle, nuts were good, libido is still fine, and gains are still there. I will get bloodwork done after PCT is complete and can update you then

**realjo1000** · 10-09-2006, 03:19 AM

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**The_Canibal** · 10-09-2006, 06:16 AM

Originally Posted by SMAN12B

well like I stated, JUST finished the cycle, so didn't get bloodwork done yet. But so far, during the cycle, nuts were good, libido is still fine, and gains are still there. I will get bloodwork done after PCT is complete and can update you then

thx for the info bro

ps when did u stop taking hcg...what was the pct protocol?

**SMAN12b** · 10-09-2006, 09:11 AM

Originally Posted by The_Canibal

thx for the info bro

ps when did u stop taking hcg...what was the pct protocol?

took it straight til the last week of the cycle.

PCT is: nolva, clomid, Tribulus,and Proviron

**stupidhippo** · 10-09-2006, 01:28 PM

Originally Posted by SMAN12B

well like I stated, JUST finished the cycle, so didn't get bloodwork done yet. But so far, during the cycle, nuts were good, libido is still fine, and gains are still there. I will get bloodwork done after PCT is complete and can update you then

i am on a similar cycle.. also doing HCG for the first time.. sure hope Im gonna say the same things in a month as u did now... my pct is also similar.. I dont have proviron though.. maybe do a low dose of dbol (5mg every morning instead???)

**Swifto** · 10-09-2006, 01:38 PM

Originally Posted by cfiler

I haven't seen any lab tests done that show that HCG used during a cycle is beficial, but I would expect that it would help.

If you have the cash, try it out. It's definately not going to hurt anything.

Well heres one. I posted this a few days ago. I'm shocked more people didnt read it and adjust there cycling to suit.

Coviello AD, Matsumoto AM, Bremner WJ, et al. Low-dose human chorionic gonadotropin maintains intratesticular testosterone in normal men with testosterone-induced gonadotropin suppression. J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 2005;90(5):2595-602.

ABSTRACT

In previous studies of testicular biopsy tissue from healthy men, intratesticular testosterone (ITT) has been shown to be much higher than serum testosterone (T), suggesting that high ITT is needed relative to serum T for normal spermatogenesis in men. However, the quantitative relationship between ITT and spermatogenesis is not known. To begin to address this issue experimentally, we determined the dose-response relationship between human chorionic gonadotropin (hCG) and ITT to ascertain the minimum dose needed to maintain ITT in the normal range. Twenty-nine men with normal reproductive physiology were randomized to receive 200 mg T enanthate weekly in combination with either saline placebo or 125, 250, or 500 IU hCG every other day for 3 wk. ITT was assessed in testicular fluid obtained by percutaneous fine needle aspiration at baseline and at the end of treatment. Baseline serum T (14.1 nmol/liter) was 1.2% of ITT (1174 nmol/liter). LH and FSH were profoundly suppressed to 5% and 3% of baseline, respectively, and ITT was suppressed by 94% (1234 to 72 nmol/liter) in the T enanthate/placebo group. ITT increased linearly with increasing hCG dose (P < 0.001). Posttreatment ITT was 25% less than baseline in the 125 IU hCG group, 7% less than baseline in the 250 IU hCG group, and 26% greater than baseline in the 500 IU hCG group. These results demonstrate that relatively low dose hCG maintains ITT within the normal range in healthy men with gonadotropin suppression. Extensions of this study will allow determination of the ITT concentration threshold required to maintain spermatogenesis in man.

No suppression of T when using HCG. Yeah..I know the study is only 3 weeks and was done with "200mg/wk Test Enan". But I've seen many endrinocologists state HCG should be used when your using androgens that cause shutdown of T. I will always include HCG whilst "on" now.

Combined with Nolva, supression of ganadotropins can be avoided or reduced also, yes.

**realjo1000** · 10-09-2006, 03:12 PM

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**realjo1000** · 10-20-2006, 02:44 AM

,,,,,

**SMAN12b** · 10-20-2006, 06:38 AM

I used arimidex throuout my cycle at .5mgs ED more to combat bloat from the test e and deca. i used nolva and clomid during PCT

**stupidhippo** · 10-20-2006, 07:43 AM

I use no antis while on.. jsut have them ready incase..

**helium3** · 10-20-2006, 08:15 AM

Originally Posted by Swifto

Well heres one. I posted this a few days ago. I'm shocked more people didnt read it and adjust there cycling to suit.

Coviello AD, Matsumoto AM, Bremner WJ, et al. Low-dose human chorionic gonadotropin maintains intratesticular testosterone in normal men with testosterone-induced gonadotropin suppression. J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 2005;90(5):2595-602.

ABSTRACT

In previous studies of testicular biopsy tissue from healthy men, intratesticular testosterone (ITT) has been shown to be much higher than serum testosterone (T), suggesting that high ITT is needed relative to serum T for normal spermatogenesis in men. However, the quantitative relationship between ITT and spermatogenesis is not known. To begin to address this issue experimentally, we determined the dose-response relationship between human chorionic gonadotropin (hCG) and ITT to ascertain the minimum dose needed to maintain ITT in the normal range. Twenty-nine men with normal reproductive physiology were randomized to receive 200 mg T enanthate weekly in combination with either saline placebo or 125, 250, or 500 IU hCG every other day for 3 wk. ITT was assessed in testicular fluid obtained by percutaneous fine needle aspiration at baseline and at the end of treatment. Baseline serum T (14.1 nmol/liter) was 1.2% of ITT (1174 nmol/liter). LH and FSH were profoundly suppressed to 5% and 3% of baseline, respectively, and ITT was suppressed by 94% (1234 to 72 nmol/liter) in the T enanthate/placebo group. ITT increased linearly with increasing hCG dose (P < 0.001). Posttreatment ITT was 25% less than baseline in the 125 IU hCG group, 7% less than baseline in the 250 IU hCG group, and 26% greater than baseline in the 500 IU hCG group. These results demonstrate that relatively low dose hCG maintains ITT within the normal range in healthy men with gonadotropin suppression. Extensions of this study will allow determination of the ITT concentration threshold required to maintain spermatogenesis in man.

No suppression of T when using HCG. Yeah..I know the study is only 3 weeks and was done with "200mg/wk Test Enan". But I've seen many endrinocologists state HCG should be used when your using androgens that cause shutdown of T. I will always include HCG whilst "on" now.

Combined with Nolva, supression of ganadotropins can be avoided or reduced also, yes.

good info,this is what i was looking for.

**stupidhippo** · 10-20-2006, 10:18 AM

to swifto: I think it was obvious that HCG maintaines ITT and normal T production but the practical use of it remains more uncertain.. I do believe its the way to go BUT I am not 100% sure if HCG during a cycle helps recovery more than HCG during the last 2 weeks and in the middle for example..

Ive seen it speculated that GnRH, LH, FSH recover faster and its the atrophied testiclesd that take time to get up to speed. One thing that goes against this is though with HCG nuts grow back very fast from atrophied state. So if the hypothalamus and pituitary would indeed recover very fastly then u would think nuts would grow back faster in PCT (without HCG).

Also I am interested in does the HPTA recover how much faster when using antis. What I mean is that if ur LH production is suppressed at 3 % and when the aas levels drop finally u are already at so low test u would think the recovery processes wouldnt gain any extra momentum from estrogen blockage.. or does the circulating estrogen remain high for very long after the T levels drop? I do believe in the use of anti E's in PCT BUT I would like to see some comparable data on how much they actually speed up recovery. Data to show that they raise baseline test shows nothing in this case, Im also thinking that the use of Antis maybe helps raise t levels a bit after cycle and thus allowing to keep more gains (not make recovery any faster)..

**realjo1000** · 10-20-2006, 01:39 PM

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**Swifto** · 10-20-2006, 02:28 PM

Originally Posted by stupidhippo

to swifto: I think it was obvious that HCG maintaines ITT and normal T production but the practical use of it remains more uncertain.. I do believe its the way to go BUT I am not 100% sure if HCG during a cycle helps recovery more than HCG during the last 2 weeks and in the middle for example..

Ive seen it speculated that GnRH, LH, FSH recover faster and its the atrophied testiclesd that take time to get up to speed. One thing that goes against this is though with HCG nuts grow back very fast from atrophied state. So if the hypothalamus and pituitary would indeed recover very fastly then u would think nuts would grow back faster in PCT (without HCG).

Also I am interested in does the HPTA recover how much faster when using antis. What I mean is that if ur LH production is suppressed at 3 % and when the aas levels drop finally u are already at so low test u would think the recovery processes wouldnt gain any extra momentum from estrogen blockage.. or does the circulating estrogen remain high for very long after the T levels drop? I do believe in the use of anti E's in PCT BUT I would like to see some comparable data on how much they actually speed up recovery. Data to show that they raise baseline test shows nothing in this case, Im also thinking that the use of Antis maybe helps raise t levels a bit after cycle and thus allowing to keep more gains (not make recovery any faster)..

There is a TRT specialist called "Dr John" or, was a TRT on M&M and he stated that HCG should be used when "on" and "Its good to start PCT from the beginning", or something along those lines. I'm no expert in TRT, but he is and Ive taken his work for it and have adjusted my cycling to suit. Swale also stated its good to take regular small amounts of HCG when "on", in his PCT protocol thread.

The HPTA will recover faster using AI's than not. This is common knowledge. It can takes weeks to recover from being "shutdown", so isnt aiding this. using AI's, helping are recovery. I'm not sure what your asking. But...No, there isnt any data/studies to show this done by BB's and BB dosages, but then there isnt a lot, if any studies done on BB's at BB dosages.

I think the evidence is peoples personal experience. Many state AI's aid with there recovery.

**stupidhippo** · 10-20-2006, 04:09 PM

yeah Im not saying not to do PCT... dont get me wrong... But I do think the PCT we do now will probably look different to the PCT we will do in 10 years when more knowledge becomes available... Im also doubting some of the theories that are behind some of the PCT protocols... Im not doubting that they work but some points in the theoretical hypothesis sound a bit suspect to me. There is enough anecdotal evidence to say PCT is a must..... Also Im a strong supporter of HCG.....

but what I would like to know is :

a) how much faster will LH / FSH levels raise when coming off cycle when using anti's or not...

**Swifto** · 10-20-2006, 04:21 PM

Originally Posted by stupidhippo

yeah Im not saying not to do PCT... dont get me wrong... But I do think the PCT we do now will probably look different to the PCT we will do in 10 years when more knowledge becomes available... Im also doubting some of the theories that are behind some of the PCT protocols... Im not doubting that they work but some points in the theoretical hypothesis sound a bit suspect to me. There is enough anecdotal evidence to say PCT is a must..... Also Im a strong supporter of HCG.....

but what I would like to know is :

a) how much faster will LH / FSH levels raise when coming off cycle when using anti's or not...

I think we'de agree, its definitely faster. How much...I'll have a look into this, probably Monday. Its an intresting subject.

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