Cycle #2, deca & test, needs pct tweak for HCG

[Iron-man]

Well here we go, working on a 2nd cycle & doing early research. I've seen this before, but want to know if there are any tweaks, especially in the PCT. FYI, cycle won't be until next year (Jan/Feb).

1-4 dbol 25-50mg day (need to work out dosage. Tabs are 50 mg ea. Can be split into 25 or maybe 12.5 with cutter)
1-12 Test-e 250mg wk (as a maint dose only)
1-10 Deca 400mg wk (anything needed to combat progesterone activity, letro?)

Also running L-dex through out
I would like to include HCG in my PCT.
What then would should my PCT look like?

Thx for any advice!!

[Iron-man]

Bump

[huee]

hey bro- i say cut the dbols into 4's and take throughout the day. Take the HCG at 250 ius, twice a week, from week 5-14 (right up to pct) good luck

[Iron-man]

Thx Huee,
bump for any more opinions

[Swifto]

Well here we go, working on a 2nd cycle & doing early research. I've seen this before, but want to know if there are any tweaks, especially in the PCT. FYI, cycle won't be until next year (Jan/Feb).

1-4 dbol 25-50mg day (need to work out dosage. Tabs are 50 mg ea. Can be split into 25 or maybe 12.5 with cutter)
1-12 Test-e 250mg wk (as a maint dose only)
1-10 Deca 400mg wk (anything needed to combat progesterone activity, letro?)

Also running L-dex through out
I would like to include HCG in my PCT.
What then would should my PCT look like?

Thx for any advice!!

First off. Split the Dbol or take it at once, thats up to you. Start at 25mg/ED and wrork your way to a dose thats effective comparing gains/sides.

About the gyno and L-dex. It all depends on how prone you are to estrogenic side effects, bloat and gyno? Letro can be used in the place of L-dex and may be better do to it being a powerful AI, lowering estrogen by a fialry large margin. But only you can answer how prone you are?

I use HCG when "on" and during PCT. When "on", I'll be doing 250-500ius/ED Mon/Wed/Fri, next cycle. Then for PCT, 500ius/ED, Mon/Wed/Fri. Combined with Nolva and Proviron and possibly...An AI.

My PCT protocol:

wk 1-3 HCG 500ius/ED, Mon/Wed/Fri.
wk 1-4 Nolva 20mg/ED
wk 1-6 Proviron 50mg/ED (May use it as a bridge next cycle)

Some questions I have.

Why the low dose testosterone?

What do you have to combat deca dick if you get it?

What compound(s) did you use for your first cycle?

[Iron-man]

First off. Split the Dbol or take it at once, thats up to you. Start at 25mg/ED and wrork your way to a dose thats effective comparing gains/sides. OK, No Problem

About the gyno and L-dex. It all depends on how prone you are to estrogenic side effects, bloat and gyno? Letro can be used in the place of L-dex and may be better do to it being a powerful AI, lowering estrogen by a fialry large margin. But only you can answer how prone you are? Prone to bloat but never any gyno. Taking L-dex on current cycle

I use HCG when "on" and during PCT. When "on", I'll be doing 250-500ius/ED Mon/Wed/Fri, next cycle. Then for PCT, 500ius/ED, Mon/Wed/Fri. Combined with Nolva and Proviron and possibly...An AI.

My PCT protocol:

wk 1-3 HCG 500ius/ED, Mon/Wed/Fri.
wk 1-4 Nolva 20mg/ED (what about Clomid as I have a lot of it??)
wk 1-6 Proviron 50mg/ED (May use it as a bridge next cycle)

Some questions I have.

Why the low dose testosterone? Well, I am doing 500mg wk & test did not seem too great, but got the sides. BP & bloat. The L-dex was good but still got some bloat. I might go again with 500mg wk (or more), but if I do more, my BIG concern is even more bloat. This might not be an issue if letro or a higher dose of L-dex will combat it...I don't know for sure. If letro will keep the bloat away, then more test will be OK if needed Just a side note, for me it seemed the test didn't really take effect unit wk 8. So when I stopped the tbol after week 5, there was a lull for a few weeks. Perhaps in my case, more test is need to get an effect...not sure.

What do you have to combat deca dick if you get it? Hopefully with the test in the cycle, deca dick should not be a problem, but do have cialis as a plan B.
What compound(s) did you use for your first cycle?
1st cycle, 18 yrs ago, test-c with some var. Current cycle, test-E 500mg wk/12, with tbol bookends at 50mg ed.

Responses in BOLD

[Iron-man]

Bump for a reply from Swifto

[Hellmaskbanned]

Whats your cycle's base?
I'd say the deca, but your basing your cycle off of 400mgs of deca for your 3rd cycle..? Y test dosage so low? Did you not like it? I would bump the test up to 400mgs & run the deca @ 600mgs. Maybe throw some proviron throughout to help with bloat & sex drive.

[Iron-man]

Whats your cycle's base?
I'd say the deca, but your basing your cycle off of 400mgs of deca for your 3rd cycle..? Y test dosage so low? Did you not like it? I would bump the test up to 400mgs & run the deca @ 600mgs. Maybe throw some proviron throughout to help with bloat & sex drive.

I was not crazy about the test, not results I expected, even with proper diet & training. My concern is the trade off of sides vs dosage. If I need more test than 500mg wk, the bloat maybe worse, unless letro can control it better than L-dex. As I mentioned in the reply to Swifto, more test is possible with better bloat control.
What should I expect from sides from deca at 400-600mg wk. I don't have hairloss issues. Part of where I'm going with this cycle is from posts I've read from Skullcrusher & his view on maint dose's of test when used with deca.
Anyway, thanks for the input HM. With enough discussion, I hope to get this next cycle dialed in with the benefit of vets like yourself & Swifto.

[Swifto]

Bump for a reply from Swifto

Sorry I didnt reply, I missed this.

L-Dex will combat estrogenic sides, but some do have problems when combining a form of testosterone WITH a 19-Nor, Tren or Deca.

So this is why Letro may be a wise idea. Due to its ability to dramatically reduce estrogen and its effects on the Pgr. Although it takes many weeks (4-5) to reach stable blood plasma concentrations, I'd still keep Letro on hand when running any amount of a 19-Nor. Doesnt mean you HAVE to use it though. Whilst also keeping a SERM on hand, Nolva.

Truth is, you just never know.

About the bloat L-Dex should take care of that, if not, increase the dosage slowly till it becomes effective at the action you require.

About the Clomid, I dont like it side effects, personally. I dont like the emotional sides and cant chance the vision bluriness as I'm blind in one eye. I prefer to use Nolva, which is more powerful mg/mg and the same price for me.

I'd still use HCG when using a 19-Nor, Deca when "on". It is excellent for testicular size and function. Which is imprtant as Deca can so rapidly cause "shutdown". I'd go with 250-500ius/E3D. And 500ius/ED for PCT. Along with an AI, Nolva and Proviron.

[Swifto]

Whether your prone to "deca dick", who knows. Some are, some arnt. Only experience can determine this. I have never run Deca so cant comment on experience.

If testosterone is a major factor for you, run a low(ish) dose of 250mg/wk and see if "deca dick" is evident. If so, increase the testosterone dosage or run some Proviron 50mg/ED, or Tbol 60mg/ED...HCG may also help alot.

But....If bloats such an issue? Why the hell are you running Deca?

[Hellmaskbanned]

Whether your prone to "deca dick", who knows. Some are, some arnt. Only experience can determine this. I have never run Deca so cant comment on experience.

If testosterone is a major factor for you, run a low(ish) dose of 250mg/wk and see if "deca dick" is evident. If so, increase the testosterone dosage or run some Proviron 50mg/ED, or Tbol 60mg/ED...HCG may also help alot.

But....If bloats such an issue? Why the hell are you running Deca?

Personally I think Tbol does nothing for libido. I actually felt alittle down everytime I use it. Just another boosted up lie for an aas to make it look more appealing to users IMO.

[Iron-man]

Whether your prone to "deca dick", who knows. Some are, some arnt. Only experience can determine this. I have never run Deca so cant comment on experience.

If testosterone is a major factor for you, run a low(ish) dose of 250mg/wk and see if "deca dick" is evident. If so, increase the testosterone dosage or run some Proviron 50mg/ED, or Tbol 60mg/ED...HCG may also help alot.

But....If bloats such an issue? Why the hell are you running Deca?

Well, this is why I'm getting feed back 3-4 months early. I have spoken to others where bloat was more an issue with test than deca. For me, I'll just have to see if deca is going to be a problem, also if letro works better (than Ldex), then I'm good too. I'll have enough test to combat deca dick if I choose to initially run test @ 250wk, (can go back up to 500 if need be).

[Swifto]

Well, this is why I'm getting feed back 3-4 months early. I have spoken to others where bloat was more an issue with test than deca. For me, I'll just have to see if deca is going to be a problem, also if letro works better (than Ldex), then I'm good too. I'll have enough test to combat deca dick if I choose to initially run test @ 250wk, (can go back up to 500 if need be).

I think you ok then. You may wont some Proviron for back up and its excellent for PCT too.

[Swifto]

Personally I think Tbol does nothing for libido. I actually felt alittle down everytime I use it. Just another boosted up lie for an aas to make it look more appealing to users IMO.

I did for me. I'm a nutter on it. Proviron and HCG...Well. Lock your daughters up!

[Iron-man]

I think you ok then. You may wont some Proviron for back up and its excellent for PCT too.

Thx Swifto & HM for the help. I just need to summarize the recommendations & check to be sure I can get each item, though I don't think that's problem.

[Iron-man]

Based on what advice has been given, this is where I'm at. How does this look, anything else??

1-1 dbol 25mg ED
2-4 dbol 50mg ED (25mg x2 ED) (will monitor sides & adjust if needed)
1-12 Test-e 500mg WK
1-10 Deca 400mg WK
1-13 Letro .25/.5mg ED (for mostly bloat control, maybe for gyno too)
5-14 HCG at 250 ius, 3x WK M/W/F

PCT begins week 14
wk 14-16 HCG 500ius/ED, M/W/F.
wk 14-18 Nolva 20mg/ED & L-dex .25/.50mg ED
wk 14-19 Proviron 50mg/ED (also to help with bloat & sex drive per HM)

10/20/06: change, use Letro @ ??mg ed wks 1-13, & use L-dex in PCT wks 14-18

[gymrocken]

u can just use nolva for gyno worries...
if you block one of the 4 components that cause gyno (igf, prog, estrogen, prolactin) then gyno cant not be caused. u have to have all 4.
the easiest is block estrogen, via nolva because its safe and the most researched and proven SERM in the world.

[helium3]

Based on what advice has been given, this is where I'm at. How does this look, anything else

1-1 dbol 25mg ed
2-4 dbol 50mg ed (25mg x 2ed) (will monitor sides & adjust if needed)
1-12 Test-e 500mg wk
1-10 Deca 400mg wk
1-12 L-dex for mostly bloat control (with Letro on hand).
5-14 HCG at 250 ius, 3x wk MWF

PCT begins week 14
wk 14-16 HCG 500ius/ED, M/W/F.
wk 14-18 Nolva 20mg/ED
wk 14-19 Proviron 50mg/ED (also to help with bloat & sex drive per HM)

the cycle looks great!

personally i wouldnt use dbol even though it can kickstart the cycle coz its mainly bloat,i dont think theres much in the way of "real" gains anyway,id save my money and my liver lol,but thats just me.

the pct looks great,im gonna look at something like this for my next cycle(pct)

[Swifto]

Based on what advice has been given, this is where I'm at. How does this look, anything else

1-1 dbol 25mg ed
2-4 dbol 50mg ed (25mg x 2ed) (will monitor sides & adjust if needed)
1-12 Test-e 500mg wk
1-10 Deca 400mg wk
1-12 L-dex for mostly bloat control (with Letro on hand).
5-14 HCG at 250 ius, 3x wk MWF

PCT begins week 14
wk 14-16 HCG 500ius/ED, M/W/F.
wk 14-18 Nolva 20mg/ED
wk 14-19 Proviron 50mg/ED (also to help with bloat & sex drive per HM)

I'd run the L-Dex from beginning to end. Whilst "on" and during PCT IMO. Proviron, for me, wasnt excellent at reducing levels of estrogen.

Other than that, I love it.

u can just use nolva for gyno worries...
if you block one of the 4 components that cause gyno (igf, prog, estrogen, prolactin) then gyno cant not be caused. u have to have all 4.
the easiest is block estrogen, via nolva because its safe and the most researched and proven SERM in the world.

So what happens when you run a SERM, like Nolva, with a 19-Nor, like Deca then....?

[Iron-man]

OK, thx Swifto, I added the L-dex to the PCT in my above cycle layout.
Now just have to wait till next year

One more question, I see that the profile of Letro shows to be 10-30x more effective than Arimedex (L-dex). Should I just go with Letro instead of L-dex to better control bloat??? (see below)

Arimidex (L-dex) due to it's poor ability to enter lipid cellsArimidex is approximately 80% effective at inhibiting aromatase, Femara (Letro) is around 95-97

[Iron-man]

Here is a revised summary where I changed use Letro while on, & L-dex in PCT. This based on doing more research. Any comments

1-1 Anadrol 25mg ED (was dbol)
2-5 Anadrol 50mg ED (25mg x2 ED) (Was dbol) (Use b12 with drol???)
1-12 Test-e 500mg WK
1-10 Deca 400mg WK
1-14 Letro .25/.5mg ED (start a few weeks before cycle)
5-13 HCG at 250 ius, 3x WK M/W/F

PCT begins week 14
wk 14-16 HCG 500ius/ED, M/W/F.
wk 14-18 Nolva 20mg/ED
wk 16-19 L-dex .5mg ED (tapering down as PCT progresses)
wk 14-19 Proviron 50mg/ED (also to help with bloat & sex drive per HM)

10/20/06: change, use Letro @ .25/.5mg ed wks 1-13, & use L-dex in PCT wks 14-18
10/28/06 changed dbol to Anadrol (B12 for sides???)

[Swifto]

Cycle looks good. It takes 4-5 weeks for Letro to be fully effective. Therefore I'd start it as soon as possible, 3-4 weeks proir to starting your actual cycle.

Taper the AI (L-Dex) down when using it for PCT in weeks 16-19 to be sure to not get a rebound of estrogen. This can occur when using AI's. Such as Letro or Arimidex.

[Iron-man]

1) Another tweak/change. After more reasearch, changed Letro & Ldex to Aromasin= improved cholesterol
2) Looking at changing Dbol to Anadrol, need advice on this. How to control bloat of Drol....will Aromasin work with dbol & drol???


1-1 Anadrol 25mg ED (or dbol)
2-5 Anadrol 50mg ED (25mg x2 ED) (or dbol) (Use b12 with drol???)
1-12 Test-e 500mg WK
1-10 Deca 400mg WK
1-14 Aromasin (Exemestane) 20-25mg ed
1-14-Nolva 10mg ed
5-13 HCG at 250 ius, 3x WK M/W/F

PCT begins week 14
wk 14-16 HCG 500ius/ED, M/W/F.
wk 14-18 Nolva 20mg/ED
wk 16-19 Aromasin 20-25mg ed
wk 14-19 Proviron 50mg/ED (also to help with bloat & sex drive per HM)

11/4/06 changed Letro & L-dex to Aromasin (better on cholesterol)
Researched here http://forums.steroid.com/showthread.php?t=125162
Also looking at swapping dbol for drol


Btw, Swifto, thanks for all your help

[Iron-man]

Bump, a few changes to cycle

[Swifto]

1) Another tweak/change. After more reasearch, changed Letro & Ldex to Aromasin= improved cholesterol
2) Looking at changing Dbol to Anadrol, need advice on this. How to control bloat of Drol....will Aromasin work with dbol & drol???


1-1 Anadrol 25mg ED (or dbol)
2-5 Anadrol 50mg ED (25mg x2 ED) (or dbol) (Use b12 with drol???)
1-12 Test-e 500mg WK
1-10 Deca 400mg WK
1-14 Aromasin (Exemestane) 20-25mg ed
1-14-Nolva 10mg ed Nolva and a 19-Nor isnt ideal as it can worsen progesteroine relates side effects. Try it and see what wors for you.5-13 HCG at 250 ius, 3x WK M/W/F

PCT begins week 14
wk 14-16 HCG 500ius/ED, M/W/F. Run the HCG weekdays, from Mon-Fri. For 3 weeks.wk 14-18 Nolva 20mg/ED
wk 16-19 Aromasin 20-25mg ed
wk 14-19 Proviron 50mg/ED (also to help with bloat & sex drive per HM)

11/4/06 changed Letro & L-dex to Aromasin (better on cholesterol)
Researched here http://forums.steroid.com/showthread.php?t=125162
Also looking at swapping dbol for drol


Btw, Swifto, thanks for all your help

Thats fine. BOLDS.

[Iron-man]

Ok on the Nolva & 19nors. I may just stick with the Aromasin while "on".
Does the "thats fine" also include the possible choice of using Anadrol instead of Dbol?

From above:
2) Looking at changing Dbol to Anadrol, need advice on this. How to control bloat of Drol....will Aromasin work with dbol & drol???

Thx!!!

[HighandWide]

Yea I get much better results from A-bombs than D-bol. I experience more bloat but i get a much better kick, up until the long ester (Test/Deca) start. I believe Aromasin has no agents which prevent bloat, but like you mentioned its a much better choice for this cycle than Nolva. Y not run provirion throughout? My bloat goes away within a few day of stopping use. I would however keep Nolva around for the PCT

[Swifto]

Ok on the Nolva & 19nors. I may just stick with the Aromasin while "on".
Does the "thats fine" also include the possible choice of using Anadrol instead of Dbol?

From above:
2) Looking at changing Dbol to Anadrol, need advice on this. How to control bloat of Drol....will Aromasin work with dbol & drol???

Thx!!!

Use Anadrol or Dbol, I've never run either, but am running Dbol next cycle as it suits my goals. I also seem to see many report more sides when using Anadrol, compared to Dbol.

Run the Aromasin 12.5-25mg/ED when "on" and keep the Nolva on hand IMO. You could also use Proviron when "on", though I found it didnt do much to keep estrogenic sides at bay, for me anyway. Its a better compound to use during PCT, or later in e longer cycle to reduce SHBG.

[HighandWide]

Just so u can peak at my very similar finished product

1-1 Anadrol 50mg ED
2-5 Anadrol 75mg ED
1-12 Test-e 750mg M/TH
1-10 Deca 400mg M/TH
1-13 Aroma 25mg ED
13-14 HCG M/W/F 500iu

PCT begins week 14
wk 14-17 Aroma 25mg ED
wk 14-18 Nolva 20mg/ED
wk 14-16 HCG M/W/F 500iu

[Swifto]

Just so u can peak at my very similar finished product

1-1 Anadrol 50mg ED
2-5 Anadrol 75mg ED
1-12 Test-e 750mg M/TH
1-10 Deca 400mg M/TH
1-13 Aroma 25mg ED
13-14 HCG M/W/F 500iu

PCT begins week 14
wk 14-17 Aroma 25mg ED
wk 14-18 Nolva 20mg/ED
wk 14-16 HCG M/W/F 500iu

Proviron for PCT. Wouldnt do a PCT without it. 50mg/ED.

[Andy Thai]

Great thread guys.

Iron man, I'm doing the same cycle in 6 weeks so now I dont have to ask the questions.
I'm sticking with anabol as I've got loads of it.
I'm using test C so will have adjust PCT accordingly.

Andy Thai

[Iron-man]

Great thread guys.

Iron man, I'm doing the same cycle in 6 weeks so now I dont have to ask the questions. I'm sticking with anabol as I've got loads of it.
I'm using test C so will have adjust PCT accordingly.

Andy Thai

Hey there Andy,
Here is a variation of my cycle that someone suggested to me. It uses HCTZ to control the bloat from the drol & deca. It needs some work (Nolva & deca???) Comments??

weeks 1-12 Test E 500mg/wk
weeks 1-10 Deca 400mg/wk
weeks 1-4 Anadrol 50mg daily or 50mg Dbol daily
weeks 9-12 Anadrol 50mg daily or 50mg Dbol daily
weeks 1-13 Proviron 50-75mg daily
weeks 1-13 HCTZ 2 tabs daily
weeks 5-13 HCG 500ius every 3rd day
PCT
weeks 14-18 Nolva 40mg daily
week 19 Nolva 20mg daily
weeks 17-19 Aromasin 12-25mg daily

HCTZ: Is very safe (mild diuretic) and can be taken indefinitely with no harm or toxicity to the body and it will also help keep your blood pressure normal. It is not potassium sparing but a banana (or supp) every day will take care of that.

[HighandWide]

I originally thought u put 12 weeks of Drol but then got my head out of my ass and saw it was 1-4, 9-12.....what is the point of running it again 9-12...expecially if you want to control your bloat

[HighandWide]

you said this is your 2nd cycle right....im doing something almost identical and this is #4 for me...some uneducated gearheads think that the more cycles they do the more they should add......If it 'ant broke don't fix it

[HighandWide]

by the way i got your post about a online log....i feel it would be neat and beneficial to others if we both posted one in the same thread...that way people can use the logs to formulate their own cycles and dosage w/ these products

[jkilla13]

I would like to follow that log so keep us posted.

[Iron-man]

by the way i got your post about a online log....i feel it would be neat and beneficial to others if we both posted one in the same thread...that way people can use the logs to formulate their own cycles and dosage w/ these products

Good idea, but unfortunately mine won't start until Jan/Feb next year, so I'll have to do a separate one I guess.
As far as cycles, this new one is technically my 3rd, but the first one was 17 yrs ago & the second just finished, but I don't usually count my first lame attempt anyway