Sweden's "neutrality" in WW2

[Logan13]

Sweden's "neutrality" in WW2
The Swedish government was forced to make concessions to Germany, such as allowing the Wehrmacht to use Swedish railways to transport an infantry division from Norway to Finland, and to transport soldiers on leave between Norway and Germany. Sweden also supplied Nazi Germany with important goods like iron ore, essential to the war effort.

However, Sweden's inability to take a stand was partly related to her geographical position (as opposed to that of Great Britain), and can also be related to what is a typical cultural tendency in Sweden: to avoid conflict and confrontation as much as possible, which for non-Swedes is and was difficult to understand. It may be noted that Britain is an Island of no tactical significance to waging war on Russia. Some comentators feel that Sweden merely ducked the great moral issues of the day, and profiteered by attempting to sell weapons and steel/steel rights to both sides.

Also, it is notable that Sweden secretly collaborated with both the Allies and the Nazis, by allowing their intelligence units to spy in Sweden. Sweden would have preferred to help the Allies, as they were opposed to some Nazi policies, but reality of the situation provided a different scenario. Sweden's choice has been the subject of much debate in Sweden.

The public's sentiments were widely published in the Swedish press, causing many protests from the German government and prompting the Swedish government to censor areas of the press on a limited basis. In Sweden, the press fell under the control of several councils, despite contemporary claims that the Swedish press was free. The Swedish Government War Information Board determined what military information was released and what information remained secret. The Swedish Press Council served as a "promotion of good relations between the press and the public authorities and to serve as an instrument of self-discipline for the press." The Press Council issued warnings, public or confidential, to those who abused the freedom of the press.

To say that Sweden had a truly free press was somewhat false. Sweden was concerned that its neutrality might run the risk of being unbalanced should its press be too vocal in its opinions. Both the Press Council and the Information Board issued comments such as "As far as the material received permits, attempts should be made not to give prominence to the reports of one side at the expense of the other", or "headlines, whether on the billboards or in the newspapers, should be worded in such a way as to avoid favouring one side or the other", and finally, "editorials and surveys as well as articles discussing military events or the military situation, should be strictly objective...".

Sweden decided to not to aid in defeating Hitler, in fact, regardless of their policy of "neutrality", they actually helped Hitler. It should therefore come as no suprise that Sweden will not help in the war on terror. And if judged by their history, if pressed, Sweden would most likely aid countries like Iran and Syria and groups such as Al Quada. Is Sweden a friend or foe to the free world......?

[Kärnfysikern]

Do you think norway and denmark helped the nazi aswell? After all they put down there arms and let them invade without resistance. What about czechoslovakia. What about finland that was on the side of the axis because they where at war with the soviet union?

Like I wrote in the other thread. Only a stupid man fights a fight he cant win.

[Logan13]

Do you think norway and denmark helped the nazi aswell? After all they put down there arms and let them invade without resistance. What about czechoslovakia. What about finland that was on the side of the axis because they where at war with the soviet union?

Like I wrote in the other thread. Only a stupid man fights a fight he cant win.

So you give in and the help Nazi's? That's a great motto to live by....
Principles can not be taught when you are 22 yo, I guess. Sweden was asked for assisance in fighting from both Finland and than Norway. Sweden gave clothes and food to Finland, but nothing to Norway because "they had given all that they could give" to Finland already. Trying and failing I can respect, not having the moral courage to stand for what is right, I do not!

[Kärnfysikern]

So you give in and the help Nazi's? That's a great motto to live by....
Principles can not be taught when you are 22 yo, I guess. Sweden was asked for assisance in fighting from both Finland and than Norway. Sweden gave clothes and food to Finland, but nothing to Norway because "they had given all that they could give" to Finland already. Trying and failing I can respect, not having the moral courage to stand for what is right, I do not!

Well acctualy sweden gave finland arms and armed every swede that wanted to voluenter to go there and fight. My father was going to go but his mother prevented him. Plenty of northern swededs voluentered to the fight, northern swedes obivously have a much stronger connection to finland than the rest of sweden and I am by the way of finish ancestry.

I wish we would have helped finland more because unlike a fight against germany the fight against russia was not a hopeless fight.

I never said I am proud of that part of history. But I can not se any other way sweden could have acted towards germany.

If we would have tried not only would we have we been utterly defeated by germany. We would have had all our major industries, especialy our mines, bombed to hell by the UK. There where even plans by the UK and america to invande northern sweden to prevent our resources of getting into nazi hands. It never happened though, the german invasion of norway put a stop to it before it could happen. Im glad it turned out that way because otherwise we would have been forced to ally with germany.

[Kärnfysikern]

Let me ask you this.

your out on town walking with your wife and kids. You in the distance se a gang of 50 thugs rob a lone women. Would you scream "hey let that women alone" and risk your wife and kid or would you slip away because you value your family over the stranger beeing robbed?

Thats the situation sweden was in. If you slip away you give up your honor and dignity, if you stay you will have to live with a bunch of thugs beating up, maby killing, your family. What would yuou choose?

[Logan13]

Let me ask you this.

your out on town walking with your wife and kids. You in the distance se a gang of 50 thugs rob a lone women. Would you scream "hey let that women alone" and risk your wife and kid or would you slip away because you value your family over the stranger beeing robbed?

Thats the situation sweden was in. If you slip away you give up your honor and dignity, if you stay you will have to live with a bunch of thugs beating up, maby killing, your family. What would yuou choose?

It is possible to aid the woman and protect your family. Perhaps men in sweden could hang their heads down and ignore such a situation.......

[Kärnfysikern]

It is possible to aid the woman and protect your family. Perhaps men in sweden could hang their heads down and ignore such a situation.......

Not in that given situation. How do you protect against a gang of 50 people? That is how overwhelmingly outmatched sweden would have been.

[RA]

He who fights and runs away can run away another day


Interesting dilemma

[Kärnfysikern]

He who fights and runs away can run away another day


Interesting dilemma

[Red Ketchup]

I guess Swedens "neutrality" was no worse than the United States refusing to get involved for the first 2 years. Well, except for loaning money and selling armament to the allies.

By then young men from Poland, the United Kingdom, India, France, Australia, New Zealand, Nepal, South Africa, Canada, Norway, Belgium, Luxembourg, the Netherlands, Greece, Yugoslavia and the Soviet Union were already fighting the nazis, and of course some of those countries fell.

Basically most of the "civilized" world (except the US) was busy fighting the nazis.

I don't see how a small country doing what it can to not join the nazis and not get crushed by them is any worse than watchig idly for years and making money off the conflict.

Red

[Logan13]

I guess Swedens "neutrality" was no worse than the United States refusing to get involved for the first 2 years. Well, except for loaning money and selling armament to the allies.

By then young men from Poland, the United Kingdom, India, France, Australia, New Zealand, Nepal, South Africa, Canada, Norway, Belgium, Luxembourg, the Netherlands, Greece, Yugoslavia and the Soviet Union were already fighting the nazis, and of course some of those countries fell.

Basically most of the "civilized" world (except the US and Sweden) was busy fighting the nazis.

I don't see how a small country doing what it can to not join the nazis and not get crushed by them is any worse than watchig idly for years and making money off the conflict. Red

Feel that wind Red? Point of discussion is in regards to Sweden's inferred neutrality while aiding the Nazi's during WW2. US followed an isolationist policy after WW1, but when invaded at Pearl Harbor, we retaliated. BTW, who ended up defeating the Nazi's anyway?

[Flagg]

Feel that wind Red? Point of discussion is in regards to Sweden's inferred neutrality while aiding the Nazi's during WW2. US followed an isolationist policy after WW1, but when invaded at Pearl Harbor, we retaliated. BTW, who ended up defeating the Nazi's anyway?

Russia.

[J.S.N.]

if we go a little farther and look at the danes, who formally joined the nazi empire, well why the eff shouldn't they have? they either join a government that had done great things economically in germany or get slaughtered. besides look at the human rights abuses by an american company like the united fruits company that had major govenment support and it's hard to draw a distinction. it's not like the nazi's started mass murdering people from the very start.

[Logan13]

Russia.

Russia kicked the Nazi's asses, thanks to their cold winter.
Little known fact. Russia did not declare war on Japan until after the bomb was dropped on Hiroshima.

[Phreak101]

My father was going to go but his mother prevented him.

My grandfather was 19 years old when he went, and he's 82 today. If you're 22, how old is your dad???

[3Vandoo]

So what!

American helped the Nazi before they joined the war, then helped to take them down!

it was war, it is past, lets move on! There always side, some good, some bad!

So Johan, you are now a bad NAZI!
Oh wait my grand father was italian, but wait he fought in italy against german!
Im a bad nazi allied?

PS: Im in a bad mood my cousin just committed suicide, 34yo, with 3 kids
man!



****
this sucks

[Logan13]

My grandfather was 19 years old when he went, and he's 82 today. If you're 22, how old is your dad???

I'll bet that Johan is the youngest of many children, and most of his older siblings are girls.

[Logan13]

So what!

American helped the Nazi before they joined the war, then helped to take them down!

it was war, it is past, lets move on! There always side, some good, some bad!

So Johan, you are now a bad NAZI!
Oh wait my grand father was italian, but wait he fought in italy against german!
Im a bad nazi allied?

PS: Im in a bad mood my cousin just committed suicide, 34yo, with 3 kids
man!



****
this sucks

Again. If a country proclaims neutrality, than they had sure as hell better be neutral. Sorry about your cousin man, I wish his kids the best. They will definitely be needing a male role model, are you willing/able to help with that Vandoo?

[RA]

So what!

American helped the Nazi before they joined the war, then helped to take them down!

it was war, it is past, lets move on! There always side, some good, some bad!

So Johan, you are now a bad NAZI!
Oh wait my grand father was italian, but wait he fought in italy against german!
Im a bad nazi allied?

PS: Im in a bad mood my cousin just committed suicide, 34yo, with 3 kids
man!



****
this sucks

Im sorry to hear that vandoo. Kids idolize their parents no matter how bad/good they are. I wish and pray for the wife and children

[J.S.N.]

Again. If a country proclaims neutrality, than they had sure as hell better be neutral. ?

america sold tons of shit to the uk when we were "neutral" in WW1.

[RA]

Russia.

Oh yeah, I forgot, thats who stormed the beaches at normandy. Thats who fought the battle of the bulge. I could go on but if your not completely thick you get my point. Go to Arlington and see if it was just Russians who defeated Germany

[Logan13]

america sold tons of shit to the uk when we were "neutral" in WW1.

Did we or did we not fight in WW1? Do we need to start a new forum on history?

[J.S.N.]

Did we or did we not fight in WW1? Do we need to start a new forum on history?

we declared war in 1917, when the war had been going on for 3 years.

[Logan13]

we declared war in 1917, when the war had been going on for 3 years.

so I guess that the answer is yes than........

[Kärnfysikern]

My grandfather was 19 years old when he went, and he's 82 today. If you're 22, how old is your dad???

He turns 83 in a few months. He was already 60 years old when I was born. Its a bit wierd to have a old man that old.

[Kärnfysikern]

So what!

American helped the Nazi before they joined the war, then helped to take them down!

it was war, it is past, lets move on! There always side, some good, some bad!

So Johan, you are now a bad NAZI!
Oh wait my grand father was italian, but wait he fought in italy against german!
Im a bad nazi allied?

PS: Im in a bad mood my cousin just committed suicide, 34yo, with 3 kids
man!



****
this sucks

Sorry to hear that vandoo

[Kärnfysikern]

I'll bet that Johan is the youngest of many children, and most of his older siblings are girls.

I dont know what you call a sibling that you only share on parent with. I have one "real" sister thats 4 years older than me, then I have one brother and 2 sisters with another mother. But those 3 are so much older than me that I never have had much contact with them. The youngest of them are now like 42 or something.

So if someone took that bet you won. Whats your pschyoanalysis of the situation

Oh yeah, I forgot, thats who stormed the beaches at normandy. Thats who fought the battle of the bulge. I could go on but if your not completely thick you get my point. Go to Arlington and see if it was just Russians who defeated Germany

I guess it was america that fought in stalingrad, and kursk. The two biggest battles in the entire war and the bloodiest in human history.
You know the desicive battles that changed the war. The western front was just kindergarden compared to the eastern front. The battle of stalingrad alone caused up to 2 million deaths and kursk over one million.
Thats like 8 times the total american causalties in the entire war? There is no way to spin it other than that the russians beat germany with some aid from the rest of the allies. For most of the war the other allies just bombed the shit out of german cities.

Even if the allies hadnt opened the western front the russians would have conquered germany on there own. This was something the allies where afraid of.
Im DAMN glad that didnt happen because a europe run by stalin would have been worse than europe run by Hitler. The biggest thing america did was prevent the soviets from taking to much of europe. Something much more important that beating the nazi.

[RA]

I guess it was america that fought in stalingrad, and kursk. The two biggest battles in the entire war and the bloodiest in human history.
You know the desicive battles that changed the war. The western front was just kindergarden compared to the eastern front. The battle of stalingrad alone caused up to 2 million deaths and kursk over one million.
Thats like 8 times the total american causalties in the entire war? There is no way to spin it other than that the russians beat germany with some aid from the rest of the allies. For most of the war the other allies just bombed the shit out of german cities.

Even if the allies hadnt opened the western front the russians would have conquered germany on there own. This was something the allies where afraid of.
Im DAMN glad that didnt happen because a europe run by stalin would have been worse than europe run by Hitler. The biggest thing america did was prevent the soviets from taking to much of europe. Something much more important that beating the nazi.

#1 Your not counting just soldier deaths so the numbers are way inflated and

#2 God forbid anything like that happens again but I hope to hell we stay out of it so the ungrateful sons of bitches get what they deserve. How dare you belittle the american deaths in WWII? wtf was your country doing? You know how many sons and brothers and husbands were lost while your country was kissing hitlers ass?

He was saying Russia won the war, I was saying they were not the only ones

[Kärnfysikern]

Again. If a country proclaims neutrality, than they had sure as hell better be neutral.

What you fail to realise is that we had no chooise. Neither did denmark and norway. They tried to stay out of the war aswell, they did exactly the same as sweden. But they where unfortunaly in positions that hitler considered strategic. Sweden did what it had to do to survive simple as that. You cant afford to be idealistic when the future of the entire country is at stake.

[Logan13]

I dont know what you call a sibling that you only share on parent with. I have one "real" sister thats 4 years older than me, then I have one brother and 2 sisters with another mother. But those 3 are so much older than me that I never have had much contact with them. The youngest of them are now like 42 or something.

So if someone took that bet you won. Whats your pschyoanalysis of the situation Do you really want to know my answer to that?

I do not know why, I just saw you as having older sisters.

[Logan13]

I guess it was america that fought in stalingrad, and kursk. The two biggest battles in the entire war and the bloodiest in human history.
You know the desicive battles that changed the war. The western front was just kindergarden compared to the eastern front. The battle of stalingrad alone caused up to 2 million deaths and kursk over one million.
Thats like 8 times the total american causalties in the entire war? There is no way to spin it other than that the russians beat germany with some aid from the rest of the allies. For most of the war the other allies just bombed the shit out of german cities.

Even if the allies hadnt opened the western front the russians would have conquered germany on there own. This was something the allies where afraid of.
Im DAMN glad that didnt happen because a europe run by stalin would have been worse than europe run by Hitler. The biggest thing america did was prevent the soviets from taking to much of europe. Something much more important that beating the nazi.

Many of the Russian deaths can be attributed to the fact that there was only 1 gun for every 2 soldiers. They had civilians and soldiers alike fighting with pitchforks against the Germans........seriously.

[Logan13]

#1 Your not counting just soldier deaths so the numbers are way inflated and

#2 God forbid anything like that happens again but I hope to hell we stay out of it so the ungrateful sons of bitches get what they deserve. How dare you belittle the american deaths in WWII? wtf was your country doing? You know how many sons and brothers and husbands were lost while your country was kissing hitlers ass?

He was saying Russia won the war, I was saying they were not the only ones

Just likes to hate the winner, whereas we just love to hate the whiners........

[Kärnfysikern]

#1 Your not counting just soldier deaths so the numbers are way inflated and

#2 God forbid anything like that happens again but I hope to hell we stay out of it so the ungrateful sons of bitches get what they deserve. How dare you belittle the american deaths in WWII? wtf was your country doing? You know how many sons and brothers and husbands were lost while your country was kissing hitlers ass?

He was saying Russia won the war, I was saying they were not the only ones

In what way did I belittle american deaths. If anything you belittle russian deaths by hinting that america did all the work.

Logan insinuated that america won the war. In acctuality russia won it. The D-day is only very important in american minds, what realy matter is stalingrad, leningrad, kursk. Thats where the german war machine was crushed.

Europe should be eternaly gratefull to america for not allowing stalin to make europe into his own playing ground. That is the most important contribution america did to the war and its far more important than the soviets beating germany. Did you miss me writing that?? I am acctualy giving america alot of credit.

If I had to choose I would have rather lived under Hitler than Stalin. Without america I would have lived under Stalin.

If you want soldier statistics here they are
Soldiers killed
Russia 10,700,000
Germany 5,500,000
America 407,300

Civilian causalties
Russia 11,500,000
Germany 1,840,000
America 11,200

So you tell me who is did the brunt of the work against Hitler. This is why I say the western front was a picknik compared to the eastern front. The causalties speak there own language. What happened in russia was the bloodiest and most ****ed up battles in human history. There is no debating it. Saying america saved the day is pissing on the russian deaths.

[Kärnfysikern]

Many of the Russian deaths can be attributed to the fact that there was only 1 gun for every 2 soldiers. They had civilians and soldiers alike fighting with pitchforks against the Germans........seriously.

Exactly! thats why I say that eastern front was so much worse. The fighting there was on a whole other level. The germans and the russians just wanted to kill eachother. Civilians, solders it didnt matter. It was a war of total atrocities. Nothing left standing.

I have heard it mentioned in several ww2 documentaries by german veterans that many german soliders prayed the allies would get to them before the russians did. Atleast they could surrender to the allies. The russians would have slaughtered them either way. Just like germans slaughtered russians that surrendered.

[RA]

In what way did I belittle american deaths. If anything you belittle russian deaths by hinting that america did all the work.

Show me where I said or hinted at anything like that. I said for the third time now that Russia wasnt the only one.

Logan insinuated that america won the war. In acctuality russia won it. The D-day is only very important in american minds, what realy matter is stalingrad, leningrad, kursk. Thats where the german war machine was crushed.

Its widely known that if Hitler didnt have to fight the two fronts he would have defeated Russia. Many Russian soldiers went into battle with no gun, another reason for the very high death rate.

Europe should be eternaly gratefull to america for not allowing stalin to make europe into his own playing ground. That is the most important contribution america did to the war and its far more important than the soviets beating germany. Did you miss me writing that?? I am acctualy giving america alot of credit.

If I had to choose I would have rather lived under Hitler than Stalin. Without america I would have lived under Stalin.

If you want soldier statistics here they are
Soldiers killed
Russia 10,700,000
Germany 5,500,000
America 407,300

Civilian causalties
Russia 11,500,000
Germany 1,840,000
America 11,200

So you tell me who is did the brunt of the work against Hitler. This is why I say the western front was a picknik compared to the eastern front. The causalties speak there own language. What happened in russia was the bloodiest and most ****ed up battles in human history. There is no debating it. Saying america saved the day is pissing on the russian deaths.

I never said anything like that johan. Your putting words in my mouth.

[Kärnfysikern]

Show me where I said or hinted at anything like that. I said for the third time now that Russia wasnt the only one.

I confused your post with logans post(post number 11 in this thread).

Its widely known that if Hitler didnt have to fight the two fronts he would have defeated Russia. Many Russian soldiers went into battle with no gun, another reason for the very high death rate.

When the second front was opened the tide had already turned. Germany was already scraming from russia while russians army marched on. The american and brittish firebomings of all german major cities was probably very important in breaking germany though.

I never said anything like that johan. Your putting words in my mouth.

Yeah I confused the posts But I never meant to belittle american deaths either.

[Phreak101]

Im DAMN glad that didnt happen because a europe run by stalin would have been worse than europe run by Hitler. The biggest thing america did was prevent the soviets from taking to much of europe. Something much more important that beating the nazi.

I've heard other theories about this, even to the point where the US dropped "the bombs" on Japan not only to save lives, but to demonstrate to Stalin to back off...scary stuff!

[Kärnfysikern]

I've heard other theories about this, even to the point where the US dropped "the bombs" on Japan not only to save lives, but to demonstrate to Stalin to back off...scary stuff!

I am reading a HUGE book right now about the manhattan project and everything that went on around it. It has won several awards and is considered very accurate.

In it it is pretty much hinted that the bomb was for sure a show of power to the russians. According to the book at the end of the war America didnt realy want russia involved in japan and they didnt want russia to gain to much land in europe either.

Most of the manhattan project scientists where strictly against keeping the bomb secret. They wanted to tell the russians in order to show trust and prevent a future arms race. Many of them wanted america to be at the front of creating a international organisation that would keep controll of all nuclear weapons. Especialy Bohr was very keen on this idea and he had Roosevelts agreement until churchill talked Roosevelt out of it. Churchill didnt like Borh at all and considered him a big security risk and even wanted him to be put into prison.

You should defenetly pic it up. "the making of the atomic bomb" by Richard Lee Rhodes. The first half of the book covers the birth of nuclear physics. Only after 400 pages or so does it get into the manhattan project at all. Anyone into physics has to love this book. One of the best I have ever read.

[Phreak101]

I am reading a HUGE book right now about the manhattan project and everything that went on around it. It has won several awards and is considered very accurate.

In it it is pretty much hinted that the bomb was for sure a show of power to the russians. According to the book at the end of the war America didnt realy want russia involved in japan and they didnt want russia to gain to much land in europe either.

Most of the manhattan project scientists where strictly against keeping the bomb secret. They wanted to tell the russians in order to show trust and prevent a future arms race. Many of them wanted america to be at the front of creating a international organisation that would keep controll of all nuclear weapons. Especialy Bohr was very keen on this idea and he had Roosevelts agreement until churchill talked Roosevelt out of it. Churchill didnt like Borh at all and considered him a big security risk and even wanted him to be put into prison.

You should defenetly pic it up. "the making of the atomic bomb" by Richard Lee Rhodes. The first half of the book covers the birth of nuclear physics. Only after 400 pages or so does it get into the manhattan project at all. Anyone into physics has to love this book. One of the best I have ever read.

I will be heading to the Barnes and Noble across the street at my lunch hour! Thanks for the recommendation.

[Kärnfysikern]

I will be heading to the Barnes and Noble across the street at my lunch hour! Thanks for the recommendation.

I know you will absolutely love it