Islam converts change face of Europe

[singern]

Jan. 23, 2007 3:53 | Updated Jan. 23, 2007 5:31
Islam converts change face of Europe

As many as 100,000 French and British citizens have converted to Islam over the last decade, according to a new book by an Israeli historian.

about 30 million Muslims currently live in Europe, out of a total population of 380 million., adding that with a high Muslim birthrate in Europe, the number of Muslims living in the continent is likely to double within 25 years.
European concerns over a fast-growing Muslim population is at the center of opposition to Turkey's entry into the EU, he said, as the inclusion of Turkey into the EU will catapult the number of Muslims to 100 million out of a total population of 450 million.

"The sheer weight of demography will produce a situation where no Frenchman or Dutchman could be elected to parliament without the support of the Muslim minority,"
"Muslims will have a more and more decisive voice in the makeup of European governments."

The 50,000 French and 50,000 British who have converted to Islam over the last decade, including many from mixed marriages, did so for personal convictions, romanticized notions of Islam, as well as for business reasons, while others see Islam as the wave of the future at a time when Christianity is on the wane

[Kärnfysikern]

The second generation muslims arent usualy as muslim as there parents. They enjoy the european lifestyle to much.

[Prada]

Thats a lot of converts. With no disrespect towards the religion I would assume with the recent influx of negative media reports, that people would stray away. I do believe a lot of people convert to marry. A few people I know converted to islam just to appease the parents but dont really practice it. Johan you are somewhat right, in France there are so many muslims/arabs for so long and integrated society that you couldnt even tell they are arabs. They dont exactly look like the hamas protesters you see on tv.

[singern]

With all do respect, The Islamic protests that almost burned France to the ground a few months ago was mostly second generation. Spain, England And Germany are currently experiencing an epidemic of violence and radicalism of the European born Muslims.

[Kärnfysikern]

With all do respect, The Islamic protests that almost burned France to the ground a few months ago was mostly second generation. Spain, England And Germany are currently experiencing an epidemic of violence and radicalism of the European born Muslims.

Yes but I do not belive it is because of islam. Crime is higher among imigrants no matter religion. Its a failure of imigration policy that lead to the riots. Not the imigrants ethnicity or religion.

Not trying to say the imigrants arent responsible for there actions though. But first and foremost it is a horrible failure in european imigration policy. The goverment brings them in, the french people dont want them there, the imigrants end up in segregated suburbs of the cities living on social security and cant even get a job outside of the local pizza joint.
It all leads to a shitty situation. No doubt if they realy tried they could get out of the shithole they are in. But people are lazy no matter what country.
Place a bunch of swedes or french in the same situation and they would do the same shit.

The young are the easiest to brainwash with radical propaganda. But the true radicals are a minority.

Most second generation arab imigrants I have meet are hardly muslims. Those that are are about as muslim as the sunday church crowd. In other words they drink, screw around and do everything else that european kids take for granted.

[Prada]

Yes but I do not belive it is because of islam. Crime is higher among imigrants no matter religion. Its a failure of imigration policy that lead to the riots. Not the imigrants ethnicity or religion.

Not trying to say the imigrants arent responsible for there actions though. But first and foremost it is a horrible failure in european imigration policy. The goverment brings them in, the french people dont want them there, the imigrants end up in segregated suburbs of the cities living on social security and cant even get a job outside of the local pizza joint.
It all leads to a shitty situation. No doubt if they realy tried they could get out of the shithole they are in. But people are lazy no matter what country.
Place a bunch of swedes or french in the same situation and they would do the same shit.

The young are the easiest to brainwash with radical propaganda. But the true radicals are a minority.

Most second generation arab imigrants I have meet are hardly muslims. Those that are are about as muslim as the sunday church crowd. In other words they drink, screw around and do everything else that european kids take for granted.

Exactly, for some reason the media tainted the riots as "Arab/Muslim" but the fact was their were many ethnicities and religons involved. It was social unrest based on conditions and not religious convictions. In any society Ive been in desperate and less then affluent societies turn to radicalism, whether it be religious or not.

[Kärnfysikern]

Whenever a big chunk of imigrants arrive it seems to create crimewave.

Italians in america, irish in america, mexicans in america, asians in the UK, eastern block imigrants in sweden. Both historicaly and now its the same story. But all those imigrants end up beeing good people after a generation or two.

The problem with arab imigrants seems to be that they come in such great numbers and that circumstances make it extra hard for them to integrate. But in 50 years I have no doubt we will look back at it just like any other wave of imigrants.

[singern]

Im not blaming Islam, but the growing radical element within it.

I dont see comparible circumstances between Italian Mafia in the US which is driven by greed and power, and radicals in Britain calling for death to the west, and fomenting violence in the name whatever pisses them off this week.
There is a difference between the inability of a culture to assimilate and the unwillingness to do so.

[Kärnfysikern]

Im not blaming Islam, but the growing radical element within it.

I dont see comparible circumstances between Italian Mafia in the US which is driven by greed and power, and radicals in Britain calling for death to the west, and fomenting violence in the name whatever pisses them off this week.
There is a difference between the inability of a culture to assimilate and the unwillingness to do so.

But the big question is. Is the imigrants prevented from or unwilling to assimilate?

A big chunk of the imigrants can not get any high paying jobs. We have arab engineers working at pizza joints here in sweden. Arab docs have to go through several year of swedish schooling before they are allowed to practice. That means they end up in the segregated shitty neighboorhoods because thats the only place people with strained economies can find apartments.

Since those suburbs are mostly populated by imigrants they dont get a chanse to integrate. They are not around swedes. They are only around other imigrants. The local store is owned by ahmed and the local resturant is owned by mohammed They hardly ever have to speak swedish in there neighboorhood.

Now if you are a 17-18 year old imigrant in that situation. Knowing you wont get a good job because your surename is hussein and having to live on social security. Would you not be a angry ****er?
Im not saying they cant get out of the situation if they realy realy struggle. But the majority wont do that, the majority will live in there shitty apartment in a shitty suburb living on shitty social security and not getting a job. The kids goes to shitty schools with shitty teachers and never get motivated to pursue a higher education and even if they do they will have less chanse of getting a job than someone named Karlsson or Eriksson.

Such a environment breeds radicals. Now the italians in america maby didnt preach death to america. They had the organised crime to turn to instead. The arabs have the radical islamists to turn to.

The same circumstances push the minorities into radicalism. But what kind of radicalism depends on whats aviable.

Not to mention the first and second generation imigrants I have had personal dealings with HATES the radicals. They hate how they get into the news and make them all look bad. Many of the imigrants in sweden had to flee from religious ****s and they dont want to have them here aswell ****ing things up.

[Kärnfysikern]

The radicals are a problem because they are recruiting those disgruntled young imigrants that are disgruntled because of the shitty imigration policy.

Fix the imigration policy and there will be no disgruntled youth to recruit from.

[J.S.N.]

france's policy to ward former colonies is one of the dumbest things i've ever heard; it's white guilty gone truly amok. anyone who lives in a former colony is allowed to be a french citizen, come live in france, and leech off the government. it might sound extreme, but i would reverse that shit and start deporting those ****ers if they're found guilty of crimes. you can't just expect the native population to bend over for a bunch of immigrants, esp. in a place liek france with strong national identity and a well-planned economy.

[Kärnfysikern]

france's policy to ward former colonies is one of the dumbest things i've ever heard; it's white guilty gone truly amok. anyone who lives in a former colony is allowed to be a french citizen, come live in france, and leech off the government. it might sound extreme, but i would reverse that shit and start deporting those ****ers if they're found guilty of crimes. you can't just expect the native population to bend over for a bunch of immigrants, esp. in a place liek france with strong national identity and a well-planned economy.

Thats the main problem. The people of europe DO NOT WANT mass imigration. But imigration just never becomes a election issue because ALL parties say they want imigration. If they dare suggest anything else the media screams rasist so hard that the party can forget getting any votes.

The only political option for people that are against mass imigration are the growing nazi, extrem right, rasist parties.

[J.S.N.]

Thats the main problem. The people of europe DO NOT WANT mass imigration. But imigration just never becomes a election issue because ALL parties say they want imigration. If they dare suggest anything else the media screams rasist so hard that the party can forget getting any votes.

The only political option for people that are against mass imigration are the growing nazi, extrem right, rasist parties.

sometimes they get a really bad rap. it's 110% okay for jews to push a zionist agenda or black to have a black caucus but lord help us all if you have a subgroup devoted to northern european solidarity.

their main strength and flaw is the belief that ending one certain kind of diversity will solve all of society's ills. there are definitely downsides to diversity, but then again you get rid of all of _____ minority group, and the main group still finds ways to seperate from each other and cause friction.

[singern]

The radicals are a problem because they are recruiting those disgruntled young imigrants that are disgruntled because of the shitty imigration policy.

Fix the imigration policy and there will be no disgruntled youth to recruit from.

How is immigration policy the problem, I mean either they are allowed to immigrate or they arent.

most free nations for example, allow immigrants every opportunity to succeed.
I see the massive influx of Indian and Pakistani immigrants to the US, highly motivated, educated, small business owners. and virtually no crime.

I look at the Polish immigrants in the US, they have a work ethic to be proud of, and again virtually no crime.

So I do believe that there are circumstances of unwillingness to assimilate. A great example of that was a recent CNN program on London, where a Muslim immigrant was asked why he does not assimilate and conform to British way of life. He replied- "why should I, my way is better, they should conform to Islam".

[singern]

sometimes they get a really bad rap. it's 110% okay for jews to push a zionist agenda or black to have a black caucus but lord help us all if you have a subgroup devoted to northern european solidarity.

their main strength and flaw is the belief that ending one certain kind of diversity will solve all of society's ills. there are definitely downsides to diversity, but then again you get rid of all of _____ minority group, and the main group still finds ways to seperate from each other and cause friction.

Just the opposite, it is diversity which makes us strong. The US and other melting pot nations are strong as a direct result of open, and diverse cultures. The problem at hand is the unwillingness of certain groups to assimilate and add the that diversity.

[J.S.N.]

Just the opposite, it is diversity which makes us strong. The US and other melting pot nations are strong as a direct result of open, and diverse cultures. The problem at hand is the unwillingness of certain groups to assimilate and add the that diversity.

assimilation means you get rid of the diversity. i think you're right though, diversity can make a society stronger in certain ways, because you have a greater cross-flow of ideas and maybe the best thing is just that one gets to see that people who are different aren't subhuman but rather very like us.

there is no denying diversity causes problems as well though. here in the united states blacks who come from families who been here hundreds of years still live in de facto apartheid and oftentimes poverty. most hispanic groups except the first wave cubans have the same problem, as well as many, many other groups. in fact catholics didn't even become mainstream americans until non-christians and non-whites started coming en masse.

[singern]

ASSIMILATION:
Assimilation is the process by which individuals from one cultural group merge, or "blend," into a second group.

It is not necessary to lose your cultural identity in order to assimilate or merge into a host nation. If this were not the case ,the US wouldnt have such crazes as Sushi, karioki, Soccer, Pizzarias, Yoga, Karate, and so on.......
Also by stating that Black live in "apartheid" like conditions implies they have no choice in the matter, which of course couldnt be further from the truth.

[J.S.N.]

apartheid literally mean "apartness" aka segregation, and they are generally segregated by income.

if you take just the thesis from wikipedia for assimilation,

Cultural assimilation, or 'assimilation' for short (but that word also had other meanings), is an intense process of consistent integration whereby members of an ethno-cultural group, typically immigrants, or other minority groups, are "absorbed" into an established, generally larger community. This presumes a loss of all or many characteristics which make the newcomers different. A region or society where assimilation is occurring is sometimes referred to as a "melting pot."

hence why education is compulsory.

[singern]

But a "melting pot" society implies a fusion of separate cultures to create one unique culture, this would negate the need to shed the original culture.
A successful assimilation requires no more than respect for the host nations laws, and traditions, and people.

[J.S.N.]

But a "melting pot" society implies a fusion of separate cultures to create one unique culture, this would negate the need to shed the original culture.
A successful assimilation requires no more than respect for the host nations laws, and traditions, and people.

one might think so because it's not a very precise metaphor, but the idea is that the different "ingrediants" are "cooked" until they all have a uniform "flavor."

[Kärnfysikern]

How is immigration policy the problem, I mean either they are allowed to immigrate or they arent.

Well in sweden we had a program in the 70's called the million program. It was meant to build one million new apartments(a big deal in a country with 8 million people). We adopted a kind of soviet style and built huge and unattractive building complexes in suburbs around the big cities. I guess similar to the american projects.

The down side of that offcourse is that no swede would EVER want to live there. So what happens. The imigrants end up there and stay there. So when you go there its just like going to Bhagdad. Swedes are the minority.

Breaking up these suburbs and mixing imigrants with swedes is defenetly a policy problem. Its something that HAS to happen if the imigrants are going to assimilate/integrate into swedish society. You can literaly live there for 10 years without ever even having a need to speak swedish. They cant even practice swedish if they want to because there are no swedes to comunicate with.

There is also the problem that imigrants gets placed in different cities, areas. Offcourse the richer and nicer placed refuse to accept imigrants. So they end up in the shabby ghettoes or poor towns. That is yet another failure of imigration policy.

For instane what do the goverment think will happen if they place 2000 imigrants into a small northern swedish mining town with 1500 in population and high unemployment? That is one example of horribly stupid imigration policy. Either they have to do crime or live on social security because there isnt even any jobs aviable!

most free nations for example, allow immigrants every opportunity to succeed.
I see the massive influx of Indian and Pakistani immigrants to the US, highly motivated, educated, small business owners. and virtually no crime.

I look at the Polish immigrants in the US, they have a work ethic to be proud of, and again virtually no crime.

Well the imigrants in sweden have acess to free education and all that. But what good does that do when they dont get a job after the education?

That is a problem that has to be dealt with. We cant just open up our borders and let people in unless they will be able to make a living here. That is a failure of imigration policy.

On the other hand most new small buisnesses started is by imigrants and many of them arabs. Like I have said before they have a monopoly on small kiosks and fast food joints. They start the buisnesses swedes dont want to touch and prospere on it.

So I do believe that there are circumstances of unwillingness to assimilate. A great example of that was a recent CNN program on London, where a Muslim immigrant was asked why he does not assimilate and conform to British way of life. He replied- "why should I, my way is better, they should conform to Islam".

Yes some might think like that, but they are most defenetly in the minority.
If they didnt think sweden was better they wouldnt have come here. Same with france. But when they are here they find they cant get a job because of rasist employers. It is a fact that if you sign a job application with a foreign name you have a lot less chanse of getting a interview. That would piss me off aswell and its a hard problem to deal with. Almost everyone is a closet rasist.
Since the state is the biggest employer this is also a policy problem. How to make sure imigrants can get a job.

The first generation seems to appriciate beeing here more since they are the ones that acctualy escaped from poverty, war, opression. Even if they are very religious they respect sweden.
The second generation however, while not very religious, feel betrayed by sweden and they clearly se that they dont have the same oppertunities as swedes(even though they on paper have the same rights). How to break that is a policy problem.

Imigration in europe isnt as succesfull as imigration in america. Its a whole different cultur. America is born as a meltingpot and will always be a meltingpot. Everyone went there wanting to start from a clean slate. America had no cultur form the start so there was nothing to lose.

The french, swedes, germans, britts on the other hand dont want to mix our cultures with their cultures. We want them to adapt to us or **** of. Even if every swede is to politicaly correct to admit this, but if you give him/her some liqour he will tell you. Thats why a european goverment can not run a imigration policy where you suddenly have 10% of the current population not even born in the country!!

[Kärnfysikern]

Simple observation.

A few imigrants into a swedish city=> a succesfull assimilation where the imigrants have jobs, well educated kids and are well liked.

Dumping a million imigrants into the city suburbs=>crime, poverty, lack of education, crime, rasism.

If the european countries had a lower rate of imigration and a better way of placing the imigrants it would be succesfull. By just opening our borders and making everyone into wellfare rejects its a recipie for disaster.

[J.S.N.]

Imigration in europe isnt as succesfull as imigration in america. Its a whole different cultur. America is born as a meltingpot and will always be a meltingpot. Everyone went there wanting to start from a clean slate. America had no cultur form the start so there was nothing to lose.
!!

that's not really true, our american culture is ango-saxon, which special emphasis on quantity over quality. in fact it's kind of funny when you're learning american history to hear some second or third generation american to speak of the american part as his it's his ancestors' past, because while it isn't his genetic ancestors' part, it is his cultural past.

[Logan13]

Great discussion guys! This is, IMO, how an intelligent conversation is waged.