serious diet question...

[usualsuspect]

I'm new to AR's message boards but not new to the sport. This is a great site filled with many friendly and knowledgeable members. Gives me another incentive to ignore people at the gym(except the ladies) and concentrate on my workouts. Don't you just love hearing the goals of every other musclehead in the gym and how he has the best workout program in the world (I mean come on...he can bench 400lbs).

Anyway, my question concerns my daily carb intake and calories. First, my stats are as follows:
185 lb.
5'8
18 in. arms
9-11% bf
22 yrs. old

I eat 6-7 clean meals every 2-2 1/2 hrs. a day while watching my protein to carb ratio. A typical meal consists of chicken and 1/2 cup of whole wheat pasta or brown rice. Of course I changes it up sometimes with tuna, chicken in a can, etc. My question is not what kind of carbs should I take in but when should Ieat carbs and how??? I know carbs should not be eaten after 7 pm and I need carbs after I train to replace glycogen levels. Since my goal after all is to maintain my bodyweight while losing bodyfat (acheiving a more lean, muscular look) how do I get my necessary calories when slimming carbs from my diet. Better put, if my typical meal consists of 4 slices of chicken and a piece of fruit (let's say 250 cals,, then hell the heck am I going to put on muscle by taking in under 2000 calories. Yes, I know it is long but I'm sure I'm not the only person confused about this. Hope my question makes sense.

[defdaz]

bro,

first off congrats on what you've acheived so far, sounds like you are doing great and are very motivated.

Your question is a very good one! The quick answer is

A: In the morning, and
B: After your workout (if you have one on said day)

I am sure you are educated enough to know why I say this but for others I'll go into some explanation:

It's because at these times of day your body is most in need of carbs - you've depleted your reserves throughout the night (hence the term break-fast) and also from your training.

Not only is it a good idea to replensish your carbs at these points because being low in carbs is potentially catabolic but it is also a great time to eat carbs as it is very unlikely any ingested carbs will in the short term be converted to fat (subject to the sheer amount you eat!).

If you are eating limited amounts of carbs then you must try to make the most of what you do eat and by timing your carb meals you will be doing everything you can to limit muscle atrophy.

Remember that carbs are technically anti-catabolic. It's only when you exceed your body's storage capacity that they become 'bad' so don't neglect your carb intake as it could be detrimental to your overall physique and your goals.

def

[PaPaPumP]

awesome post def. That's exactly what I do, morning carbs...pre workout carbs, post workout carbs and post-post workout carbs.

ive put on some weight lately and i swear to you my abs are getting deeper...im lovin it. btw.i do cardio maybe once or twice a week. i bust my ass training tho(sweat like all hell) and people always give me weird looks cuz im the only one in there doing drop sets, negatives, and actually training... we need to set up an AR only gym.

[defdaz]

Hehe, thanks PPP! You list what you eat in the other thread and it looks awesome, no wonder you are doing so well. That there quad must be looking even sharper then too eh?

btw lol @ your training comments!! It's the same in so many gyms hey. They see you put one set of db's back and get another set and they are like 'EH?!?'. I'm in and out of the gym in an hour or less and scarily some of the guys still haven't finished training chest, even though they don't do any warming up either (I do about 15 mins cardio, stretching and light warming up sets).

Back and biceps now, can't wait! Later.

def

[defdaz]

Here's a good article:

THE SCIENCE OF POST-WORKOUT NUTRITION
By Jose Antonio, Ph.D., CSCS, EPC

You know, timing IS everything. Whether it's that first kiss on a hot
date, getting out of the starting blocks for a sprint, or when you
eat after a heavy-duty workout. For instance, we know that after
endurance, strength or power training, the body is primed for
nutrient uptake into the muscle cells. So what should you feed your
hungry muscles? An abundance of new research has provided clues as to
what to consume after the workout (Bloomer et al. 2000, Rasmussen et
al. 2000, van Loon et al. 2000a; van Loon, 2000b). While the exact
formula is debated, it's clear that the best post-exercise formula
would: a) Be a liquid meal for ease and rapid speed of digestion and
rehydration, b) Contain rapidly digesting, high glycemic index
carbohydrates that stimulate the anabolic hormone insulin and lead to
glycogen synthesis. c) Contain rapidly digesting protein in addition
to essential amino acids (BCAA) and glutamine for rapid increase in
muscle protein synthesis and decrease in protein breakdown for
maximal muscle repair and growth.

1. Restore Electrolytes and Water
Fluid and electrolyte restoration is the cornerstone of any training
program. Fluid and electrolyte replenishment is crucial in
maintaining cardiac output and regulating body temperature during
exercise. Elevations in body temperature can sharply impair
performance. Studies have shown that fluid replacement must occur
both during and after exercise. Electrolytes, are now usually added
to sports hydration drinks, can accelerate rehydration by speeding
intestinal reabsorption of fluids and improve fluid retention.

2. Replenish Glycogen Stores Rapidly
Early studies primarily focused on replenishment of glycogen stores
by consumption of a carbohydrate supplement both during and after
exercise. Carbohydrate supplementation stimulates insulin. Insulin
has two major roles: 1)Facilitates the transport of glucose into the
muscle cell; (2) Stimulates enzymes responsible for the synthesis of
glycogen from glucose.

Recent studies have extended our understanding of how glycogen is
replenished. A post exercise carbohydrate supplement composed of high
Glycemic Index Carbohydrates (such as simple sugar) is more rapidly
transported into the muscle cell in the critical post recovery period
(Burke L, et al, 1993). Enzymes responsible for the manufacturing of
muscle glycogen are maximally stimulated 0-2 hours after exercise
(Ivy J, et al, 1988). Therefore it is essential that a carbohydrate
supplement be taken in this time frame to enhance recovery.

Even more significant are research findings showing that protein and
the amino acids, when combined with a carbohydrate supplement can
strongly stimulate insulin levels in a synergistic fashion (Yaspelkis
& Ivy, 1999). The ratio of carbohydrate to protein is extremely
important to obtain this synergy. The optimal ratio should be a 2-4
to 1. This means that carbs should be at least twice that of protein
and perhaps four times more (esp. if you expend a lot of energy).

3. Rebuild Muscle
Immediately following exercise a rebuilding process is initiated to
repair muscle proteins damaged during exercise. Evidence suggests
that insulin is a strong stimulus of the muscle rebuilding process by
increasing amino acid transport into the muscle (Kreider RB, et al,
1993) and by preventing the breakdown of protein. This
interrelationship between glycogen replenishment, insulin and muscle
rebuilding is a cornerstone of muscle recovery.

A second aspect of the rebuilding process is the need for protein,
glutamine and branched chain amino acids. Protein not only stimulates
the replenishment of glycogen stores by activating insulin, but also
provides the essential building blocks for muscle repair (Johnson DJ,
et al, 1986).

So there you have it. If you want to maximize the recovery and muscle
hypertrophy process, take a carbohydrate-protein based drink
IMMEDIATELY after training.

Bloomer et al. Effects of meal form and composition on plasma
testosterone, cortisol, and insulin following resistance exercise.
Int. J. Sport Nutri. Exer. Metab. 10:415-424, 2000. Burke et al.
Muscle glycogen storage after prolonged exercise: effect of the
glycemic index of carbohydrate feedings. J. Appl. Physio. 75:1019-
1023, 1993. Ivy et al. Muscle glycogen synthesis after exercise:
effect of time of carbohydrate ingestion. J. Appl. Physiol. 64:1480-
1485, 1988. Johnson et al. Branched chain amino acid uptake and
muscle free amino acid concentrations predict postoperative muscle
nitrogen balance. Ann. Surg. 204:513-523, 1986. Kreider et al. Amino
acid supplementation and exercise performance: An analysis of
proposed ergogenic value. Sports Med. 16:190-209, 1993. Rasmussen et
al. An oral essential amino acid-carbohydrate supplement enhances
muscle protein anabolism after resistance exercise. J. Appl. Physiol.
88(2):386-392, 2000. Van Loon et al. Maximizing post exercise muscle
glycogen synthesis: carbohydrate supplementation and the application
of amino acid or protein hydrolysate mixtures. Am. J. Clin. Nutri.
72:106-111, 2000 Van Loon et al. Plasma insulin responses after
ingestion of different amino acid protein mixtures with
carbohydrates. Am. J. Clin. Nutri. 72:96--105, 2000. Yaspelkis and
Ivy. The effect of a carbohydrate-arginine supplement on postexercise
carbohydrate metabolism. Int. J. Sports Nutri. 9:241-250, 1999.

[usualsuspect]

Fellaz,
thanks for the posts! I never realized how important my post-workout nutrition was until now. And, I actually thought eating just raisiens, a cranberry juice drink, and a protein shake was doing my muscles a favor after an intense workout. Damn, was I wrong (well, half wrong). From now on, I think I'm going to stick with my post-workout nutrition but just like papapump, I'm going to place more importance on my post-post workout meal (carbs)...about 45 minutes after I lift. Now all I have to do is stop wasting time in the gym (like Papa and Def) and hit back and bi's in under an hour!
Out and about,
Usualsuspect

[PaPaPumP]

Awesome stuff bro. Post^2 workout carbs are very important because whatever glycogen is still available to be filled up after your p/w/o shake will be. Just some slow burning carbs such as oats. If it is later in the day when you work out, maybe do not have as much, as it can in turn lead to raised bf levels. I train...well for now, around 12-2pm so I got plenty of time to get some more carbs in before I become sedentary (is that the right use of that word lol).
once in a while(every week or so) do a carb up to shock your body to boost the metabolism and keep it burning at full force.