Baseball offseason, considering first Cycle

[Nawlins19]

Well first off I'm 21 yrs old, 6'2 225(weighed 205 coming out of highschool and the weight put on isnt muscle) and I play college baseball, im a pitcher, and i run about 15-20 miles a week

This offseason I'm looking to get more lean, lose about 15-20 lbs and try to get a bit stronger throwing the ball, which is hard to do, and stronger in my core. I've worked out throughout highschool and such so i'm no stranger to the gym but i have always been discouraged by coaches about working out bc they say all a pitcher is going to do in the weight room is get hurt, but i'm over that now and i want to start working out again. Its been about 6 months. I've been reading up on this website and I've been considering doing a cycle of Winny but if i understand correctly, you need to take some sort of test with it correct?

Basically what i am looking for is some direction, I've never done any cycles
b4, nor do i know anyone that has. What i am trying to do is cut some weight while getting stronger and building my fast twitch muscles. What can i expect in gains and what should i be taking? any info helps

[Tip]

Stay away form winny if your a pitcher, I know pitchers who have developed joint pain and actual loss of velosity.

[asimov]

Good luck for you Nawlins, I played college and 8 years of pro ball (pitcher) with some good success and I know alot about how you can use steriods to help yourself.

Absolutely stay away from winny. Cross reference winny and collegen (what connective tissue is made of) and you'll understand why. Some people will say take test with winny because while winny will dry out your joints, test (like enanthate) will increase joint fluid and balance it out. But it is not that simple. Winny inhibits the way collegen structures itself in your connective tissue.

check out the long post in the middle of this thread:
http://forums.steroid.com/showthread...light=collegen

Now, in regards to testing. When I played, I knew of plenty of teammates who had the misconception that winny was undectable 2 weeks after your last shot because it is water based. Untrue. Check out steriod detection times on this site and you'll see that it's longer than that. I believe it's more like 5 months. That wouldn't be a good window for you. You need to find out which roids will give you a shorter window. There's a very short list for this. And I'd stay away from the more intense substances like dianabol, tren. Look at things like testosterone. Proprionate is my fav, or enanthate if you have any injury (tendonitis) issues at this point. Testosterone gets out of your system in a better time frame.

When you get the right steriods, now its a matter of how you work out. As a pitcher things are very different for you. Bench press, curls, heavy tricep or deltoid work is not a good idea. Your flexibilty is just as/ more important than your strength. How many pitchers do you see in the MLB who blow 95mph and are as thin as a rail? You need to concentrate on three things primarily: rotator cuff, core, and legs. When it comes to legs, think olympic style power lifting. When it come to core, you need rotational work just as much as the traditional sit/ crunch. Med ball work, cable work pushing your trunk to max rotational range. Think of how your body moves thru your pitching mechanics and find/create exercises that mimic that. AND DO THEM IN REVERSE, not just the way you pitch. And devote good time to stretching every day!! Get a book, look up on the web for techniques. Take yoga classes, etc.

Now lets get shoulder specific. Be on a throwing program, at least 4 or 5 days a week. Get some long toss sessions in (required). But don't over do it! Long toss once a week. And don't push it too hard on your other days, EVEN if your feel great which you prob will while on juice.

And now the grand daddy, the rotator cuff. That your key to arm strength. But get this, concentrate on your decelerators, not your accelerators. If you pitch in college, then you should know a good cuff program (Jobes). If not I feel bad for you. Do them 3 or 4 times a week. While on roids, you need to beat the shit out of your cuff, I can't stress this enough. Your decelerators are what keep you from beating the shit outta your arm when your pitch. Strong decels means health, and is your best shot at increasing velocity thru weights. Think about it, over the long hall of a baseball season, fresh rotaor cuff translates into max stamina and velocity. Now long toss is prob the key to improving arm strength, but the cuff lets you keep it up, it'll improve your average speed and bring it closer to your max.

Most cuff programs recommend you stay in the 3 to 5 lb. range with your weights, but with juice and dedication, you can double that in a effective way for you.

That's enough for today, this is about 6 years and 5 cycles of knowledge and experience your getting.

[Nawlins19]

what kind of test prop cycle should i be looking at and for how long?

[asimov]

Run test prop as a search and check out the posts. I think the general consensus is 8 to 10 weeks, sometimes more. Hopefully some more guys chime in with some recommendations. It's your first cycle so you don't need to overdo it. Shoot for around 500mg per week. I took it as my fourth cycle and made great gains in 10 weeks at 560mg/wk.

One thing, it being your first cycle, are you familiar with injecting yourself? Prop is a good choice for you, lesser sides compared to other tests and it's out of your system the quickest. But, it needs to be injected at least every other day. Can you get comfortable with that? And prop can leave you sore at your injection site for a few days, so you might have to have a rotation of four sites: both glutes and then both quads. You need to be prepared for this before you start. Prop is a short ester and you don't want to be skipping shots, or doubling up doses so you can shoot less often. It must be at least every other day.

Plus you'll need an anti-estrogen handy.

[Nawlins19]

i have no problems with injecting myslef and i have been reading up on it so i dont think tht will be a problem,

anyone please chime in and give me some tips on dosage for my cycle and what anti estrogen i might need and a pct

[asimov]

Proviron inhibits estrogen production, it can be pricey though. Nolvadex blocks estrogen from binding to your receptors, it works well and is way cheaper. Also sold as tamaxofin (mexico). 10-20mg per day throughtout cycle.

Nolva also good for PCT.

your program could look like this

Wk 1 - 10
Test Prop 500mg/ week (@140mg eod or 70mg ed)

Wk 1 - 11
Nolva 10mg ed (you can bump up to 20mg if needed)

PCT, I've used Clomid and Clenbuterol in the past. But I've read some new stuff hear lately and think I'll try something new. Again, hope some guys chime in here and give an opinion.

PCT
Wk 12 & 13
Nolva 40mg per day
Wk 14 &15
Nolva 20mg per day
Wk 12 - 15
HCG (still looking into dosages)

[***xxx***]

you should worry about a good workout plan, decent food and not steroids. at this point this would be a total waste and your coach is prolly gonna be right: you gonna get hurt as a pitcher. especially if you don t really know what u r doing...

[***xxx***]

Proviron inhibits estrogen production,

this is very outdated information and not right. proviron does not lower or inhibt estrogen.: check out those studies * Placebo-controlled trial of high-dose Mesterolone treatment of idopathic male infertility; Gerris, Peeters, Comhaire, Schoonjans, Hellemans; 1991 ** 1991 ** The effect of Mesterolone administration to normal men on the pituitary-testicular function; Aakvag, Stromme; 1974 *** The effect of mesterolone on sperm count, on serum follicle stimulating hormone, luteinizing hormone, plasma testosterone and outcome in idiopathic oligospermic men; Varma, Patel; 1988

[asimov]

If that Proviron info is outdated, I'll take your word for it, prefer/ recommend Nolva anyway. But his coach isn't right. The weight room is a great place where a pitcher can improve himself, he just has to be aware of what to do and more importantly what not to do. This guy is young, and maybe he should hold off on roids, but knowing nothing about his talent level or goals as a pitcher, we can't make any blanket statements for or against.

[Nawlins19]

want to know what it all boils down to? I pitch for a juco, next year will be my last year, im a decent pitcher that throws 84-85 consistent and about 88 if i really feel good, its basically the end of the line and i want to go out in a blaze of glory if i can, if not? its alright, people will say work on mechanics and do your exercises, believe me they are being done, i just want something extra

[asimov]

Hold on, if the info on this site about proviron is outdated, then why reference articles written in 1974, 1988, 1991 Is there anything more current/ up to date than a few random articles 10 to 30 years old? I do stand corrected, proviron is not an estrogen inhibitor. It blocks aromatase enzyme from binding to particular molecules and then producing estrogen. Again, if I'm wrong I'm wrong, I'd just like to see some fresh data on that.

[asimov]

84-85 and topping out at 88 at 21 yrs old doesn't sound like the end of the line to me. And do they roid test in juco? At 21 I was prob throwing 88-90. But at 22 I was 91-92 topping at 95. My point being you can get stronger, and 84-88 is a good start. I didn't try roids till I was 26, so it can be done naturally. Now if you're going to juice no matter what, then you can get some good advice here in terms of substance and workout. But if your MPH is correct, you can consider going on without taking roids just yet. I take it you have no plans of moving on to a 4 year school to play...

[Nawlins19]

Moving on is doubtful, and i am fine with that, but like i said this being my final year i kind of want to see what i could possibly get out of myself, i wont be getting tested and if i hurt myself, which i dont think will happen cuz im not prone to injury(not trying to sound ignorant) then thats fine. IF a miracle happens and i get ot move on to a 4 year then woo hoo for me but if not, then thats ok. Im not looking to go all out and spend all my money. I just wanted to see if there was anything out there that could enhance my work that will be done this offseason

[Nawlins19]

Moving on is doubtful, and i am fine with that, but like i said this being my final year i kind of want to see what i could possibly get out of myself, i wont be getting tested and if i hurt myself, which i dont think will happen cuz im not prone to injury(not trying to sound ignorant) then thats fine. IF a miracle happens and i get ot move on to a 4 year then woo hoo for me but if not, then thats ok. Im not looking to go all out and spend all my money. I just wanted to see if there was anything out there that could enhance my work that will be done this offseason

[Nawlins19]

biggity bump where yall at?!

[asimov]

What else do you want to know?

[***xxx***]

the info on proviron has never been right - even tho those studies are old, you can read in them, that there ist no estrogen blocking action. proviron binds well to the receptors thats correct problem is it crowds out test too. pls read the studies.

asimov is right in the other point: if u throw 88mph now with 21 and u havent been hitting the gym with a program developed for pitcher then there s a lot of velocity to gain without any meds. still it is pretty unusual to make any big gains in velocity in your age. mechanics, proper nutrition and explosive exercises for your legs and your upper body will do the trick.

if u are on a d1 school u prolly get tested anyways, so I d say no meds!

[kfrost06]

this is very outdated information and not right. proviron does not lower or inhibt estrogen.: check out those studies * Placebo-controlled trial of high-dose Mesterolone treatment of idopathic male infertility; Gerris, Peeters, Comhaire, Schoonjans, Hellemans; 1991 ** 1991 ** The effect of Mesterolone administration to normal men on the pituitary-testicular function; Aakvag, Stromme; 1974 *** The effect of mesterolone on sperm count, on serum follicle stimulating hormone, luteinizing hormone, plasma testosterone and outcome in idiopathic oligospermic men; Varma, Patel; 1988

^^^I looked up those studies and failed to see any mention of Mesterolone's effects on estrogen.

[argef12]

I also have a question regarding baseball. I am a collegiate pitcher and they do not test at the school i attend. This offseason i am also looking to add some velocity to my fastball. Nothing to much but around 5 mph would be great. My basic goal is to cycle and stack the steroids that will give me the best chance of doing this, regardless if i get bigger or not. I also want to be able to keep my velocity gains after i cycle. I read your other posts asimov and it sounds like you know your stuff. But is test prop the only thing that you reccomend. What about equipoise? Look at what it does to race horses? do you think the gains that equipoise gives in making horses faster could also transend to the quick twitch muscle fibers i am looking get faster? If so, what do u recomend i stack it with? i was thinking about some var, but its very exspensive.

[***xxx***]

there is no steroid that ads 5mph like that. it a combination of resistance training, explosive exercise muscle growth etc. pp and still u dont know if u really will throw faster after a cycle! there is no direct correlation between more muscle mass and more speed. I was a skinny kid when I was 17 but still throwing high end 80s.

as a pitcher u dont want to gain much muscle, cause it could interfere with ur mechanics and ur delivery.

try some short esther, like prop or some orals, like t-bol or var. those were permanentely used by athlets in the former east german state...

[argef12]

yeah i know i cant be to big and its always a tossup wether or not i will gain the desirable velocity. Im tryna get everyones opinion over what chemicals would give me the best shot at doing this. I remember when i was on equipoise i was throwing considerably faster. Im looking for that velocity after my cycle has ceased.

[***xxx***]

try some lower dose of t-bol - something like 30-40mg per day for 8 weeks. no bloat, more power and some muscle mass.

[argef12]

thanks for your imput XXX. If anyone else has any suggestions or trial and error experiences, feel free to email me.

[asimov]

Tough to answer without knowing if you've used steriods before, or what kind of workout routine you have. If you've never had a solid rotator cuff program, then perhaps you should look into your training routine before considering roids. That being said, I think test prop is a good choice. You mentioned equipoise and that is something I like too. As a side effect EQ is said to increase collegen synthesis in connective tissue and that's always a welcome thing for a pitcher.

As far as your expectations for 5 mph, XXX is right, you can't just added velo like that. Read my earlier posts where I stress a solid rotator cuff program. You might have a couple MPH in you right now that your not using because of a cuff that's not conditioned well enough. Remember, pitching is very harsh on the shoulder, it gets pretty beat up, even early in the season. When you condition those decelerators properly, you'll find your arm strength will definitely increase. But you won't be "adding" mph, you'll be tapping into your natural potential.

Obviously getting stronger all around: your trunk, legs, etc. can make you a better conditioned athlete and better equipped to handle the physical stress of pitching. As far as I'm concerned all weight training that a pitcher does should be done with the purpose of lending support to your shoulder/arm. Think about Roger Clemens. As big and conditioned as he is, he doesn't have nearly the kind of stuff he had when he was a skinny 25 year old. All that mass and strength he has now, he put on help handle the stress and keep him out there into his forties.

[argef12]

thanks asimov, i have a pretty solid cuff program my coach has provided for me. Call me ignorant, but what exactly do you mean by decelerators? Which muscles belong to that group? and what excersise do you recommend for strengthening those the most?