Interesting question about CLOMID and NOLVADEX

[mkv213]

OK, Been on this board for about 4 years or so. Back 4 years ago, EVERYONE suggested clomid for PCT. Now the craze is to use Nolvadex. They've both been around for a while...question, why the change? Was a study done recently showing Nolv being more effective? or is this just a trend? Is this due to the side of clomid? It's just strange that one thing is the best while one is another is available and then suddenly that changes to the opposite.

Which is better? I've continued to use Clomid, I really get no sides just trails in the low light.

[kfrost06]

That's a very good question and I have been wondering the exact same thing. I have been seeing a lot of hate for clomid here for some reason but none of it backed up by any studies. It may be true I just haven't seen any of it backed up with references. I continue to use clomid as the backbone for my PCTs but with the change in attitudes I have been questioning myself. Someone enlighten us

[NightWolf]

It is said that nolva has less sides then clomid.. ok you did not get any sides but i know alot of pepole that did get blurry vision with clomid. I dont know why others use nolva instead, but my reason not to use clomid is because of the possibly eyes side effect. Also maybe because William Llewellyn said nolva is better and said some lab tests showed nolva to work better then clomid, maybe thats some reason i dont know.

[slick33158]

You're right, every one USED to recommend clomid, but now a new more effective drug is out. Nolvadex is more potent, more efficient when it comes to bringing test levels back to nomal post cycle and targets breast tissue more specifically than clomid does. It is all around better than clomid and the studies can back it up. It takes 150mgs of clomid to equal just 20mgs of nolva in effect. Clomid is just older so many sample cycles have it used but nolva will soon be replacing it on them all. In a few more years something better will probably come along and replace nolva.

[magicstick2003]

if not mistaken clomid actually restarts the HPTA and gets your gonads into producing test once again whereas Nolva is a SERM which targets breast tissue and also is used to prevent other estrogen related side effects...

[mkv213]

if not mistaken clomid actually restarts the HPTA and gets your gonads into producing test once again whereas Nolva is a SERM which targets breast tissue and also is used to prevent other estrogen related side effects...

Kind of another thing i was wondering. If it help you recover, then why take it while cycling? I understand the fighting gyno and all of that. But wouldn't it be somewhat of a tug of war if it helps in recovery and taking while cycling?

[mkv213]

if not mistaken clomid actually restarts the HPTA and gets your gonads into producing test once again whereas Nolva is a SERM which targets breast tissue and also is used to prevent other estrogen related side effects...

Exactly what I was wondering. Does nolvadex also aide in hpta and gonadal start up again?

[mkv213]

Anyone able to post the link to these studies? I actually take both with aromasin. but if i can just take the nolv and save some cash in the process...show me the proof in the pudding.

[Swifto]

I've always used Nolva and liked it. I did try Clomid/Nolva for my first PCT but got fairly bad emotional problems and I wasnt blind in one eye. I now am, so the blurred vision could effect me fairly badly. So I avoid it due to its occular toxicity.

Interesting article below.

This is from W.Llewellyn:

Clomid, Nolvadex and Testosterone Stimulation
by William Llewellyn

Studies conducted in the late 1970's at the University of Ghent in Belgium make clear the advantages of using Nolvadex instead of Clomid for increasing testosterone levels (1). Here, researchers looked the effects of Nolvadex and Clomid on the endocrine profiles of normal men, as well as those suffering from low sperm counts (oligospermia). For our purposes, the results of these drugs on hormonally normal men are obviously the most relevant. What was found, just in the early parts of the study, was quite enlightening. Nolvadex, used for 10 days at a dosage of 20mg daily, increased serum testosterone levels to 142% of baseline, which was on par with the effect of 150mg of Clomid daily for the same duration (the testosterone increase was slightly, but not significantly, better for Clomid). We must remember though that this is the effect of three 50mg tablets of Clomid. With the price of both a 50mg Clomid and 20mg Nolvadex typically very similar, we are already seeing a cost vs. results discrepancy forming that strongly favors the Nolvadex side.

Pituitary Sensitivity to GnRH

But something more interesting is happening. Researchers were also conducting GnRH stimulation tests before and after various points of treatment with Nolvadex and Clomid, and the two drugs had markedly different results. These tests involved infusing patients with 100mcg of GnRH and measuring the output of pituitary LH in response. The focus of this test is to see how sensitive the pituitary is to Gonadotropin Releasing Hormone. The more sensitive the pituitary, the more LH will be released. The tests showed that after ten days of treatment with Nolvadex, pituitary sensitivity to GnRH increased slightly compared to pre-treated values. This is contrast to 10 days of treatment with 150mg Clomid, which was shown to consistently DECREASE pituitary sensitivity to GnRH (more LH was released before treatment). As the study with Nolvadex progresses to 6 weeks, pituitary sensitivity to GnRH was significantly higher than pre-treated or 10-day levels. At this point the same 20mg dosage was also raising testosterone and LH levels to an average of 183% and 172% of base values, respectively, which again is measurably higher than what was noted 10 days into therapy. Within 10 days of treatment Clomid is already exerting an effect that is causing the pituitary to become slightly desensitized to GnRH, while prolonged use of Nolvadex serves only to increase pituitary sensitivity to this hormone. That is not to say Clomid won't increase testosterone if taken for the same 6 week time period. Quite the opposite is true. But we are, however, noticing an advantage in Nolvadex.

As you see above that after 10 days nolva increases pituitary sensitivity to GnRH while Clomid DECREASE pituitary sensitivity to GnRH.
Now I feel this is a real issue because most PCT should be run for a minimum of 30 days.
If this is fact the case then Clomid is by far inferior and might inhibit recovery.

Farther down in the article....snip.....

To summarize the above research succinctly, Nolvadex is the more purely anti-estrogenic of the two drugs, at least where the HPTA (Hypothalamic-Pituitary-Testicular Axis) is concerned. This fact enables Nolvadex to offer the male bodybuilder certain advantages over Clomid. This is especially true at times when we are looking to restore a balanced HPTA, and would not want to desensitize the pituitary to GnRH. This could perhaps slow recovery to some extent, as the pituitary would require higher amounts of hypothalamic GnRH in the presence of Clomid in order to get the same level of LH stimulation.

Nolvadex also seems preferred from long-term use, for those who find anti-estrogens effective enough at raising testosterone levels to warrant using as anabolics. Here Nolvadex would seem to provide a better and more stable increase in testosterone levels, and likely will offer a similar or greater effect than Clomid for considerably less money. The potential rise in SHBG levels with Clomid, supported by other research (3), is also cause for concern, as this might work to allow for comparably less free active testosterone compared to Nolvadex as well. Ultimately both drugs are effective anti-estrogens for the prevention of gyno and elevation of endogenous testosterone, however the above research provides enough evidence for me to choose Nolvadex every time.

In the article above it was also suggesting Clomid raised SHBG which is what binds to testoserone and allows for LESS free test:
"The difference in response might be attributable to the weak intrinsic estrogenic effect of Clomid, which in this study manifested itself by an increase in transcortin and testosterone/estradiol-binding globulin [SHBG] levels; this increase was not observed after tamoxifen treatment".

Following so far, decrease pituitary sensitiviey (takes more to do less) to GnRH, which the hypothalamus tells the pituitary to release LH (which makes test) and FSH which makes sperm), increase in SHBG, which binds with test to allow less free test, which by the way is only 3% of the total test that actually is bioavailable.

[hugovsilva]

Exactly the study I was going to post. Nice one Swifto.

[kfrost06]

Very nice read, thanks Swifto!

[magicstick2003]

never seen that article good read though. I may have to rethink the use of clomid for my PCT this cycle. I have both on hand so i'm going to dive a little deeper and see which one to roll with....

[mkv213]

Interesting post swito, just what i was looking for. Guess i'll save the cash and just go with nolv. Thanks man