Bush Vetoes Iraq War Spending Bill

[alphaman]

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,269393,00.html

[singern]

I have to go with the Pres on this one, the very idea of a timeline is ridiculous. Once a date is set, the terrorists just have to sit and wait it out, then let loose the hounds of hell.

The consequences of which would be a disaster for Iraq, and the entire middle east, not to mention the US would lose any integrity it has left in the world theatre for a very long time to come.

[Superhuman]

I'm not even going to attempt to argue with you singern because you are obviously a close-minded individual with know capacity for personal growth when it comes to heaing others' opinions and political evolution. With no timeline our troops could be there (and will) way past our next president's inauguration in 2009!

[Prada]

I dont really mind for a timeline per se, I want to see a concrete plan with goals and objectives within a stated time frame. The complete raison d'etre in Iraq is moot and polemical. Any cheif executive should have that clearly and transparently defined. IT is just complete pandemonium in Iraq, unfortunatly

[mcpeepants]

if the dems don't cave in, which they will, Bush has technically ended the war by vetoing the funding bill. no funding, no war.

[Mike Dura]

Lol. The government does love the average guy who "knows" just what they want them too - guys that perform echolalia in supreme confidence. The administration feeds the masses phony sentimentality and dramatic slogans and jingoism and common, histrionic types eat it up uncritically. There's too many guys like this out there and on this board and debating them will get tiring - as you'll probably come to agree.

[Dude-Man]

Too many people here are rats to the pied piper.

[Information]

Superhuman/singern, We're going to ban both of you from the News section if you two don't stop it.

[RA]

Its not just over the war...the dems included a shitload of pork in that bill.

[BgMc31]

Its not just over the war...the dems included a shitload of pork in that bill.

Yeah like raising the minimum wage!

[RA]

Yeah like raising the minimum wage!

What does that have to do with the war?

[BgMc31]

What does that have to do with the war?

Nothin, but it shouldn't be considered pork. Pork is unnecessary government spending. That rider was attached to make it the bill more attractive to the president and lessen the possibility of a veto. Obviously it didn't work, because Bush cares more about a unnecessary war than giving people a liveable wage and bringing our troops home.

Now I'm not a fan of riders on bills unless they are directly related to the bill itself, but it happens in every congress. The democrats aren't the only ones responsible for doing this.

Stop trying to make excuses for the President. His veto had very little to do with those riders. He doesn't want to set a time table... plain and simple!!!! Claiming pork is just another lame ass excuse.

[spywizard]

Nothin, but it shouldn't be considered pork. Pork is unnecessary government spending. That rider was attached to make it the bill more attractive to the president and lessen the possibility of a veto. Obviously it didn't work, because Bush cares more about a unnecessary war than giving people a liveable wage and bringing our troops home.

Now I'm not a fan of riders on bills unless they are directly related to the bill itself, but it happens in every congress. The democrats aren't the only ones responsible for doing this.

Stop trying to make excuses for the President. His veto had very little to do with those riders. He doesn't want to set a time table... plain and simple!!!! Claiming pork is just another lame ass excuse.

holy highjack... minimum wage is a joke.. why would i pay anyone $10 an hour as an example when i can get an illegal alien to do it for $5.. and he will thank me and if he's sick, he'll send his cousin in to work to cover his shift..

and.. hello inflation.. if everyone is making the same amount of money for work, the value of the tangable item becomes more costly... why?? because of supply and demand..

Go Mr President.. thank you for not leaving those poor bastards in the desert to die from an early withdrawl like what happened in Vietnam..

[BgMc31]

[QUOTE=spywizard]holy highjack... minimum wage is a joke.. why would i pay anyone $10 an hour as an example when i can get an illegal alien to do it for $5.. and he will thank me and if he's sick, he'll send his cousin in to work to cover his shift..

and.. hello inflation.. if everyone is making the same amount of money for work, the value of the tangable item becomes more costly... why?? because of supply and demand..

Go Mr President.. thank you for not leaving those poor bastards in the desert to die from an early withdrawl like what happened in Vietnam..[/QUOTE]

I'm not even going to reply to your assinine rant about minimum wage!!!

Yeah Vietnam was a benevolent war and the Vietnamese people were sooo excited to have us there. We definately won the hearts and minds of those people too!

There was no military solution in Vietnam after '69. We lost that opportunity when the government didn't allow us to bomb certain facilities in N. Vietnam. It became a quagmire. Same thing applies in Iraq. Whether we stay or go, Iraq will continue to spiral downward. At least if we took a step back we would lose less soldiers. And why should we believe any of the what ifs of this administration, so far they have been wrong at every turn. Fact is we don't know for sure what will happen if we left Iraq. The only thing we do know for sure is we would lose less American soldiers!!!

And how well did we stop the flow of communism when we have a communist country in our own backyard.

[Lexed]

100% agree with you spy

[alphaman]

I have to go with the Pres on this one, the very idea of a timeline is ridiculous. Once a date is set, the terrorists just have to sit and wait it out, then let loose the hounds of hell.

The consequences of which would be a disaster for Iraq, and the entire middle east, not to mention the US would lose any integrity it has left in the world theatre for a very long time to come.

It's unbellievable how this is such a difficult concept for some to understand.

[spywizard]

[quote=BgMc31]

holy highjack... minimum wage is a joke.. why would i pay anyone $10 an hour as an example when i can get an illegal alien to do it for $5.. and he will thank me and if he's sick, he'll send his cousin in to work to cover his shift..

and.. hello inflation.. if everyone is making the same amount of money for work, the value of the tangable item becomes more costly... why?? because of supply and demand..

Go Mr President.. thank you for not leaving those poor bastards in the desert to die from an early withdrawl like what happened in Vietnam..[/QUOTE]

I'm not even going to reply to your assinine rant about minimum wage!!!

Yeah Vietnam was a benevolent war and the Vietnamese people were sooo excited to have us there. We definately won the hearts and minds of those people too!

There was no military solution in Vietnam after '69. We lost that opportunity when the government didn't allow us to bomb certain facilities in N. Vietnam. It became a quagmire. Same thing applies in Iraq. Whether we stay or go, Iraq will continue to spiral downward. At least if we took a step back we would lose less soldiers. And why should we believe any of the what ifs of this administration, so far they have been wrong at every turn. Fact is we don't know for sure what will happen if we left Iraq. The only thing we do know for sure is we would lose less American soldiers!!!

And how well did we stop the flow of communism when we have a communist country in our own backyard.

Ever meet a member of the Hmong community??? we have a crap load of them living here in minnesota.. They were a group that helped the CIA, when we pulled out they were systematically hunted down and killed, still to this day..

[RA]

Im not making excuses..the dems are like little children playing games...

btw, thats not the only pos they added to the bill.

Nothin, but it shouldn't be considered pork. Pork is unnecessary government spending. That rider was attached to make it the bill more attractive to the president and lessen the possibility of a veto. Obviously it didn't work, because Bush cares more about a unnecessary war than giving people a liveable wage and bringing our troops home.

Now I'm not a fan of riders on bills unless they are directly related to the bill itself, but it happens in every congress. The democrats aren't the only ones responsible for doing this.

Stop trying to make excuses for the President. His veto had very little to do with those riders. He doesn't want to set a time table... plain and simple!!!! Claiming pork is just another lame ass excuse.

[RA]

holy highjack... minimum wage is a joke.. why would i pay anyone $10 an hour as an example when i can get an illegal alien to do it for $5.. and he will thank me and if he's sick, he'll send his cousin in to work to cover his shift..

and.. hello inflation.. if everyone is making the same amount of money for work, the value of the tangable item becomes more costly... why?? because of supply and demand..

Go Mr President.. thank you for not leaving those poor bastards in the desert to die from an early withdrawl like what happened in Vietnam..

Yeah, I was going to mention something along those lines but I figured the reality of minimum wage would fall on deaf ears. Its only a ploy by the dems, nothing more.

[alphaman]

You think it's possible that they added the minimum wage thing into the bill because they knew it would be vetoed? Stockpiling a little ammunition?

[alphaman]

woops

[BgMc31]

It's unbellievable how this is such a difficult concept for some to understand.

Not difficult to understand, its an assinine argument. What integrity do we have left in that part of the world to begin with?

[BgMc31]

[QUOTE=spywizard]

Ever meet a member of the Hmong community??? we have a crap load of them living here in minnesota.. They were a group that helped the CIA, when we pulled out they were systematically hunted down and killed, still to this day..

This is going to sound real hard but it's the truth... These people were assisting the enemy (us) and that's what happens to traitors. Sorry!!! Shit happens. We may not systematically execute traitors but they are punished. Are you saying we should have stayed in Vietnam? I guess 60K+ dead Americans is alright for you as well?

[BgMc31]

Yeah, I was going to mention something along those lines but I figured the reality of minimum wage would fall on deaf ears. Its only a ploy by the dems, nothing more.

Please pm me to expound on your supposed reality of minimum wage? I would really like to know why anyone would be opposed to giving unskilled labor a fair living wage because I know no one can live on 5.25/hr here in Las Vegas.

[Logan13]

Please pm me to expound on your supposed reality of minimum wage? I would really like to know why anyone would be opposed to giving unskilled labor a fair living wage because I know no one can live on 5.25/hr here in Las Vegas.

How many people do you know, excluding students, that are making $5.25/hr?
This is the crux of the matter. Theory does not trump reality. Point is, even McDonalds pays more than $5.25/hour to kids ages 15 - 20.........
If as an adult, you can only manage to find a job for $5.25/hour, you are either lazy or handicapped.

[BgMc31]

How many people do you know, excluding students, that are making $5.25/hr?
This is the crux of the matter. Theory does not trump reality. Point is, even McDonalds pays more than $5.25/hour to kids ages 15 - 20.........
If as an adult, you can only manage to find a job for $5.25/hour, you are either lazy or handicapped.

I don't want to hijack the thread Logan. But here in Nevada with the number of small businesses (especially the surrounding rural areas), many, many people make between $5.25 and $7.25 an hour. You can't live on $10 an hour here in Vegas.

So if minimum wage doesn't work, what would you suggest? There has to be some type of standard, right?

[Logan13]

I don't want to hijack the thread Logan. But here in Nevada with the number of small businesses (especially the surrounding rural areas), many, many people make between $5.25 and $7.25 an hour. You can't live on $10 an hour here in Vegas.

So if minimum wage doesn't work, what would you suggest? There has to be some type of standard, right?

First off, get rid of all of the illegals (hispanic and europeans) who are willing to work for such low wages and are consequently lower the wages for US citizens. Pay rates are market driven.
Fine the hell out of business who employ these people.
Since, for instance, it obviously costs more to live in Las Vegas than in Davenport, Iowa the minimum wage should be state driven, not Federally controlled.
This is a Capitalistic country; There is always going to be people in the poverty range. Face it, not everyone is born with the same skills, and as long as we have these people, there will be jobs that only pay so much. The people who work for me get yearly raises, but there is a cap to what each position will pay. My hourly one's make $14-$18/hour, the salaried ones make $40k - $90k.
Here in Iowa, that's a rather healthy pay scale. A friend of mine is the Reg. manager for McD's. The local Mcdonald's pays $6.25/hr to start and $7/hr after 1 year, but there is noone that works there that is over 20 YO besides the managers.
The standard is what the market will bare. I guarantee you, as I guarantee my employees, certain positions will only garner what they pay now +yearly inflation raises. If someone here making $14/hr thinks that the same position will pay $20/hr in 4 years, than they are out of their minds. They can and do move up to positions with more responsibility and higher pay, but that is up to their performance, attitude and individual aptitudes.
My guess is that the large illegal population in LV is hindering the payrates at these small businesses. Why would you higher someone for $10/hr when there are ones who will do the same work(and probably not bitch as much) for $5.25/hr, unless you were punished for hiring them in the first place? Hell, I worked at a damn Pizza Hut in 1995(for 2 months ) and made $7.50/hr +tips.
Another local example:
The three main factories on the river start their laborers out at $9.50/hr and they top out at around $16, for the same labor position. The slaughter house and Tyson turkey plant start their people out at.....$5.25. I'll give you one guess as to why that is.

[BgMc31]

First off, get rid of all of the illegals (hispanic and europeans) who are willing to work for such low wages and are consequently lower the wages for US citizens. Pay rates are market driven.
Fine the hell out of business who employ these people.
Since, for instance, it obviously costs more to live in Las Vegas than in Davenport, Iowa the minimum wage should be state driven, not Federally controlled.
This is a Capitalistic country; There is always going to be people in the poverty range. Face it, not everyone is born with the same skills, and as long as we have these people, there will be jobs that only pay so much. The people who work for me get yearly raises, but there is a cap to what each position will pay. My hourly one's make $14-$18/hour, the salaried ones make $40k - $90k.
Here in Iowa, that's a rather healthy pay scale. A friend of mine is the Reg. manager for McD's. The local Mcdonald's pays $6.25/hr to start and $7/hr after 1 year, but there is noone that works there that is over 20 YO besides the managers.
The standard is what the market will bare. I guarantee you, as I guarantee my employees, certain positions will only garner what they pay now +yearly inflation raises. If someone here making $14/hr thinks that the same position will pay $20/hr in 4 years, than they are out of their minds. They can and do move up to positions with more responsibility and higher pay, but that is up to their performance, attitude and individual aptitudes.
My guess is that the large illegal population in LV is hindering the payrates at these small businesses. Why would you higher someone for $10/hr when there are ones who will do the same work(and probably not bitch as much) for $5.25/hr, unless you were punished for hiring them in the first place? Hell, I worked at a damn Pizza Hut in 1995(for 2 months ) and made $7.50/hr +tips.
Another local example:
The three main factories on the river start their laborers out at $9.50/hr and they top out at around $16, for the same labor position. The slaughter house and Tyson turkey plant start their people out at.....$5.25. I'll give you one guess as to why that is.

Good points, Logan. And believe it or not, I agree with you. Thanks!