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Thread: Court bars suit against faith-based plan

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    Court bars suit against faith-based plan

    WASHINGTON - The Supreme Court ruled Monday that ordinary taxpayers cannot challenge a White House initiative that helps religious charities get a share of federal money.

    The 5-4 decision blocks a lawsuit by a group of atheists and agnostics against eight Bush administration officials including the head of the White House Office of Faith-Based and Community Initiatives.

    The taxpayers' group, the Freedom From Religion Foundation Inc., objected to government conferences in which administration officials encourage religious charities to apply for federal grants.

    Taxpayers in the case "set out a parade of horribles that they claim could occur" unless the court stopped the Bush administration initiative, wrote Justice Samuel Alito. "Of course, none of these things has happened."

    "In the unlikely event that any of these executive actions did take place, Congress could quickly step in," Alito added.

    The justices' decision revolved around a 1968 Supreme Court ruling that enabled taxpayers to challenge government programs that promote religion.

    The 1968 decision involved the Elementary and Secondary Education Act, which financed teaching and instructional materials in religious schools in low-income areas.

    "This case falls outside" the narrow exception allowing such cases to proceed, Alito wrote.

    In dissent, Justice David Souter said that the court should have allowed the taxpayer challenge to proceed.

    The majority "closes the door on these taxpayers because the executive branch, and not the legislative branch, caused their injury," wrote Souter. "I see no basis for this distinction."

    With the White House Office of Faith-Based and Community Initiatives, President Bush says he wants to level the playing field. Religious charities and secular charities should compete for government money on an equal footing.

    White House spokeswoman Emily Lawrimore called the ruling "a substantial victory for efforts by Americans to more effectively aid our neighbors in need of help."

    She said the faith-based and community initiative can remain focused on "strengthening America's armies of compassion."

    The ruling won't block other legal action against the White House initiative, opponents said.

    "Most church-state lawsuits, including those that challenge congressional appropriations for faith-based programs, will not be affected," said the Rev. Barry W. Lynn, executive director of Americans United for Separation of Church and State.

    The outcome of the case before the Supreme Court was disappointing, Lynn said, because "taxpayers should be allowed to challenge public funding of religion, whether the money is allocated by Congress or the White House."

    Lynn called Alito's statement that Congress could step in "quite incredible because the damage is done when the president acts. There is no way Congress could anticipate action by the president that would violate the First Amendment. We have the courts to do precisely this, rein in the president or the Congress."

    Jim Tooey, formerly head of the White House office, said the ruling is "good news for addicts and the homeless and others seeking effective social services."

    "It's also a repudiation of the kind of secular extremism that ruled the public square for decades," said Tooey, now president of Saint Vincent College in Latrobe, Pa.

    "It's a bad day for the First Amendment. The Supreme Court just put a big dent in the wall of separation between church and state," said Ralph G. Neas, president of People For the American Way Foundation, a liberal-oriented group.

    The White House program appears to have had a substantial impact.

    In fiscal 2005, seven federal agencies awarded $2.1 billion to religious charities, according to a White House report. That was up 7 percent from the year before and represented 10.9 percent of the grants from the seven federal agencies providing money to faith-based groups.

    Among the programs: Substance abuse treatment, housing for AIDS patients, community re-entry for inmates, housing for homeless veterans and emergency food assistance.

    The Bush administration says taxpayers should not be allowed to challenge the government's conferences because Congress did not earmark funds for a specific program and no funds were distributed outside the government. The White House pulled money for the conferences out of general appropriations.

  2. #2
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    "the ruling is "good news for addicts and the homeless and others seeking effective social services." "

    I agree! Great decision from the Court, for a change!

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    It's an activist court, and they're making law from the bench . . .
    Throw 'em all out . . .

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tock
    It's an activist court, and they're making law from the bench . . .
    Throw 'em all out . . .
    no, not even close. They reaffirmed a law singed by the executive branch and passed by the congress, the way the system was set up to work. Making a law is what they did in Mass. when they made it illegal to bar same sex marriage even though the people voted against it. See the difference?

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by kfrost06
    no, not even close. They reaffirmed a law singed by the executive branch and passed by the congress, the way the system was set up to work. Making a law is what they did in Mass. when they made it illegal to bar same sex marriage even though the people voted against it. See the difference?
    It's not the court's job to rubber stamp law. How did they make a law about same sex marriage? Do you think the courts were being activist and making up laws when they voted in favor of Brown in Brown vs the Board of Education and hence challenged segregation laws that were supported by many citizens?

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    Quote Originally Posted by mcpeepants
    It's not the court's job to rubber stamp law.
    It's far from rubber stamping, it went through all three major branches of government and all the way to the Supreme Court.

    Quote Originally Posted by mcpeepants
    How did they make a law about same sex marriage?
    In the same sex case the people decided, debated and vote to re-affirm the definition of marriage as being between one man and one woman the law was challenged and a lower court declared it unconstitutional and effectively change the law to include same sex couples in the definition of marriage.

    Quote Originally Posted by mcpeepants
    Do you think the courts were being activist and making up laws when they voted in favor of Brown in Brown vs the Board of Education and hence challenged segregation laws that were supported by many citizens?
    no I don't. why does every one of your arguements have to come back to race? Anyway, the "people" never wanted segregation, the "people" were not allowed to vote and when the Civil Rights voting act of 1964 was passed ensuring ALL the people were given equal voice segregation was out lawed. It was the same activist judges that kept such laws rather then allowing the people to decide. Activist judges(both conservative and liberal) are bad for democracy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mcpeepants
    It's not the court's job to rubber stamp law. How did they make a law about same sex marriage? Do you think the courts were being activist and making up laws when they voted in favor of Brown in Brown vs the Board of Education and hence challenged segregation laws that were supported by many citizens?
    Really? Where was your outcry when the courts rubber stamped gay marriage into a population that did not want it? Why, in your opinion, should certain minority groups benefit from judicial rubber stamping while religious can not? Do you think that the homosexual lobby should have more rights than Christians?

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by kfrost06
    It's far from rubber stamping, it went through all three major branches of government and all the way to the Supreme Court.

    The only reasoning I made that comment was becaused you said "They reaffirmed a law singed by the executive branch and passed by the congress, the way the system was set up to work". That last statement makes it sound that the courts role is to give their stamp of approval and laws created by congress and signed by the president.

    In the same sex case the people decided, debated and vote to re-affirm the definition of marriage as being between one man and one woman the law was challenged and a lower court declared it unconstitutional and effectively change the law to include same sex couples in the definition of marriage.

    The majority (heterosexuals) is trying to use democracy to prevent minorities (gays) from having the same rights as they do. This is basically the same thing has banning interracial, which was also used to be illegal and very unpopular and also thrown out in the courts. fifty years from now, people will look back at laws banning gay marriage and wonder how people could be so bigotted.


    no I don't. why does every one of your arguements have to come back to race? Anyway, the "people" never wanted segregation, the "people" were not allowed to vote and when the Civil Rights voting act of 1964 was passed ensuring ALL the people were given equal voice segregation was out lawed. It was the same activist judges that kept such laws rather then allowing the people to decide. Activist judges(both conservative and liberal) are bad for democracy.
    Are you talking in general or about me because I think this is the first time I've asked responded to your statement with a race comparison. If the "people" didn't want segregation, it wouldn't have been in place for a hundred years. The "people" elected the legisture and executives the signed these laws into to place. The cvil rights movement forced the issues into the "people's" eye and they were forced to see the truth about the racism behind segregation. It was not "activist" judges that kept segregation in place, it stayed in place because it was supported by the majority of the "people" who in turn elected the politicians that created and maintained segregation. The brown decision was an "activist" decision based on the definition of "activist" judges that talk radio and republicans use. A non "activist" judge would of upheld precidence, so upheld Plessy vs Fergueson and rejected Brown's arguement, or just left it up to the states where segregation would of been upheld. I'm glad "activist" judges voted in favor of Brown.

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    How does this concern government?

    Got rope?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Logan13
    Really? Where was your outcry when the courts rubber stamped gay marriage into a population that did not want it? Why, in your opinion, should certain minority groups benefit from judicial rubber stamping while religious can not? Do you think that the homosexual lobby should have more rights than Christians?
    I won't shed tears when the court rejects bigotry. Conservative always talk about being for individual freedom but then want to make laws limiting peoples freedom. Let gay marriage be "forced on them" like integration was "forced on them" just like desegregation was "forced" on them" like women's suffrage was "forced on them" and as black emancipation and suffrage was "forced on them."

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    ttttt
    Last edited by inheritmylife; 06-28-2007 at 11:54 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Logan13
    Really? Where was your outcry when the courts rubber stamped gay marriage into a population that did not want it? Why, in your opinion, should certain minority groups benefit from judicial rubber stamping while religious can not? Do you think that the homosexual lobby should have more rights than Christians?

    Because there is a such thing as "seperation between church and state".

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    Quote Originally Posted by mcpeepants
    I won't shed tears when the court rejects bigotry. Conservative always talk about being for individual freedom but then want to make laws limiting peoples freedom. Let gay marriage be "forced on them" like integration was "forced on them" just like desegregation was "forced" on them" like women's suffrage was "forced on them" and as black emancipation and suffrage was "forced on them."
    So you are OK with Judicial rubber stamping, as long as it promotes that which you agree with? That is bigotry.........

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    Quote Originally Posted by BgMc31
    Because there is a such thing as "seperation between church and state".
    Obviously, the Courts think differently than you do. Seperation of church and state does not equate to the church having less rights than any other group in the US.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Logan13
    So you are OK with Judicial rubber stamping, as long as it promotes that which you agree with? That is bigotry.........
    Excatly! As long as it goes his way it's o.k. Typical liberal ideology

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    Whether or not one agrees with a court's decision, nontherless it is that courts legal responsibility to protect any one groups Constitutionaly protected rights.

    The courts have a long history of doing otherwise. That is unfortunate. I'd like to have them rubber-stamped with treason and have them hung.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Logan13
    Obviously, the Courts think differently than you do. Seperation of church and state does not equate to the church having less rights than any other group in the US.
    Here's what gets me, they are not promoting religion at all. They're groups that help the homeless, the drug addicts, abused women and children. The groups doing the work are religion based, Church groups, etc and they are working with outcast from society and they are simply applying for government funds to help them help others. They do not go out converting people or even try to. The problem is there are no aethist groups opening up soup kitchens or homeless shelters. Some people hate religion with such passion they feel it necessary to bite off their nose to spite their face. Makes no sense

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    Quote Originally Posted by Logan13
    Obviously, the Courts think differently than you do. Seperation of church and state does not equate to the church having less rights than any other group in the US.

    So true

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    Quote Originally Posted by BgMc31
    Because there is a such thing as "seperation between church and state".

    Not really. At least there is nothing that states specifically so. Religion is protected. So they can worship as they please so long as they do not infringe upon the rights of others. That does not mean that they have fewer rights than any other person or group, it just means that they do not have more.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kfrost06
    Here's what gets me, they are not promoting religion at all. They're groups that help the homeless, the drug addicts, abused women and children. The groups doing the work are religion based, Church groups, etc and they are working with outcast from society and they are simply applying for government funds to help them help others. They do not go out converting people or even try to. The problem is there are no aethist groups opening up soup kitchens or homeless shelters. Some people hate religion with such passion they feel it necessary to bite off their nose to spite their face. Makes no sense

    That's not absolutely true Kfrost. Many of these groups use the "power of prayer" to help these people. They also preach to these people about the "love of God/Jesus" that has allowed them to help. Catholic Social Services as well as the YMCA/YWCA post excerpts from the Bible throughout their facilities and encourage the reading of the Bible in many of their programs.

    Secondly there are many non-religious charitable organizations throughout the world. So let's not try to play make-believe and say that only religious organizations are helping out the poor and desperate.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BgMc31
    That's not absolutely true Kfrost. Many of these groups use the "power of prayer" to help these people. They also preach to these people about the "love of God/Jesus" that has allowed them to help. Catholic Social Services as well as the YMCA/YWCA post excerpts from the Bible throughout their facilities and encourage the reading of the Bible in many of their programs.

    Secondly there are many non-religious charitable organizations throughout the world. So let's not try to play make-believe and say that only religious organizations are helping out the poor and desperate.


    How awful, they should be shot. Demons.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BgMc31
    That's not absolutely true Kfrost. Many of these groups use the "power of prayer" to help these people. They also preach to these people about the "love of God/Jesus" that has allowed them to help. Catholic Social Services as well as the YMCA/YWCA post excerpts from the Bible throughout their facilities and encourage the reading of the Bible in many of their programs.

    Secondly there are many non-religious charitable organizations throughout the world. So let's not try to play make-believe and say that only religious organizations are helping out the poor and desperate.
    Don't forget the US government writes "In God we trust" on it's currency, some state still make you swear in on a bible but what is aspected in "one nation under God".

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    Quote Originally Posted by roidattack
    How awful, they should be shot. Demons.
    You stole the words out of Tocks mouth

    j/k Tock(I hope).

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    Quote Originally Posted by roidattack
    How awful, they should be shot. Demons.

    I wasn't implying that it's a bad thing. I was responding to Kfrost's post that these services don't preach or attempt conversion. Obviously that is not exactly true.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BgMc31
    I wasn't implying that it's a bad thing. I was responding to Kfrost's post that these services don't preach or attempt conversion. Obviously that is not exactly true.

    Gotcha. I missed his post.

  26. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Logan13
    So you are OK with Judicial rubber stamping, as long as it promotes that which you agree with? That is bigotry.........
    rubber stamping means the courts would have kept those laws in place

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