When To Run HCG ???

[Ozzy]

I'm going to start this cycle in a month, but I've decided to add HCG into it. I've never used hcg before and need to know at what point to start and when would I start clomid if I run hcg at the end? I've checked CYCLEON'S post "clomid facts" , and didn't see when to start after hcg. Thanks

Wk 1-16 liquidex .50mg for wks 1-4 then .25mg for rest of cycle
Wk 1-4 D-bol 30mg. ed
Wk 1-10 Eq 400mg ew (200mg mon. & thurs. )
Wk 1-10 t200 400mg ew ( 200mg mon. & thurs. )
Wk 9-13 winny tabs 50mg ed

[the original jason]

weeks 10 and 11 do 10 days of 500iu's ed

peace

[Ozzy]

Originally posted by The Original Jason
weeks 10 and 11 do 10 days of 500iu's ed

peace

Thanks OJ , I'm glad I have some place to come to ask these questions , cause I was told by someone at the gym to mix it with water and do half one wk and then the other half the next wk. I am totally new to the hcg stuff. I never even saw the shit , let alone what to do with it. I'll keep researching on it.

[chiliuno]

i disagree with that dosing schedule...here's why...hcg mimics lh in the body, specifically to the leydig cells of the testes...therefore, it's actions are twofold for our purposes...
1) it bypasses the hpta and sends a signal to the testes to start making test NOW. that swells their size and makes them much more sensitive to lh once the hpta is working.
2) it causes a massive spike in endogenous test because of the aforementioned hcg/lh synonymity, and that spike is similar to taking a shot of suspension...you need to not be doing this when you aren't on clomid, for a few reasons.
now, it's interesting to note that hcg can very easily cause desensitation of the leydig cells if use to often, but actually has an opposite effect if used at higher doses less frequntly...remember, the point here isn't increase test levels, it's to increase the tetstes' ability to recieve and respond to endogenous lh when it starts occuring again.
i always start my hcg the day i start clomid...i use 5000ius the day i start the clomid, 3500ius five days later, and 1500ius five days after that. i've gotten endogenous test levels tested a week after i stopped clomid, and had sperm counts done as well...everything was back at baseline the two times i've done this test.
i'm not going to say that the other way won't work...i don't know, and i won't ever know because i won't try it...but i do know that my way makes more scientific sense...
sorry to be so verbose...

[Rickson]

The reason for OJ's scheduling which, by the way is what most doctors will recommend for our purpose, is because large dosages while not on will cause a huge spike in both estrogen and test. Like you said desensitization to LH is a possibility. Low dosages at the end of a cycle allow for the return of testicular size (a large problem in combating recovery) without the possibility of actually shutting oneself down and halting recovery. The person then can use clomid to Stimulate both FSH and LH which will ultimately stimulate Leydig cells and return the HPT Axis to normal function. I think OJ's is the wisest and so does my endocrinologist.

[chiliuno]

i got this dosing schedule from the people at ferring, they make a preparation called novarel. ask three different docs and you'll get three diff opinions...
the estrogen spike is a result of the test spike, so if you take an anti-aromatase you will be fine...

[Rickson]

What fertility patients use it for and what BB's use it for are different. You may be right about getting different answer's from different doctors but the ones who treat BB's almost exclusively are going to probably give you the one mine gave. Again every one has the right to a different opinion but I think OJ's is right on. On a thirteen week cycle I don't think it is even a necessary drug at all since testicular atrophy at such a short time probably won't cause a huge delay in recovery and clomid should be enough.

[Ozzy]

Ok , I am completely confused Do I take it OJ's way or chiliuno's ? OR , rickson's , which seems to be maybe not use it at all and just go with clomid ? HELP !!!

Anyone else have an opinion ?

[4plates]

i wouldnt even use it bro,
the only time i would use it is if you were going to shut yourself down for 20 wks or more

[the original jason]

ok im back welll personally I would use it some cycles not others depends totally how im feelin and how my nads are lookin

1) it bypasses the hpta and sends a signal to the testes to start making test NOW. that swells their size and makes them much more sensitive to lh once the hpta is working.
2) it causes a massive spike in endogenous test because of the aforementioned hcg/lh synonymity, and that spike is similar to taking a shot of suspension...you need to not be doing this when you aren't on clomid, for a few reasons.
now, it's interesting to note that hcg can very easily cause desensitation of the leydig cells if use to often, but actually has an opposite effect if used at higher doses less frequntly...remember, the point here isn't increase test levels, it's to increase the tetstes' ability to recieve and respond to endogenous lh when it starts occuring again.
i always start my hcg the day i start clomid...i use 5000ius the day i start the clomid, 3500ius five days later, and 1500ius five days after that

Well as for all that I still 100% stand by my theory, I have tried it many way and this is best for me( I only use it against testicular atrophy) which I beleive helps in recovery. As for you saying its best not done on clomid where did I suggest he did it when on clomid?? I would never suggest that as in my eyes by mimicing lh it only slows down recovery not helps with it. Using it when I said in those weeks before excess test has left the system and still using winnie which will keep the hpta shutdown it can ready the testes for reprodruction of endogenous lh which will start being reproduced soon after. I have personally used it this way and it works best for me, I hate clomid!. Also he was using an anti armomatize 1-16 so therefore with the dosing of 500iu as rec by Bill R also he would not have any gyno problems. Hope that clears up the reasons for my suggestions, bro you can take on whoevers u want, personally I dont think you NEED it but if you do I would suggest the way I said and I beleieve you wont have any probs

peace

[Ozzy]

Thanks guys , I appreciate your help !!! Now , I need to make a decision.