2 hour workouts okay!?

[yungfaceb3]

A 2 hour workout is okay in this scenario:

Going heavy and training shoulders and arms. Longer breaks between sets because of heavy nature and about 45 minutes per each bodypart (shoulders and arms.) After shoulders, take BCAAs and GLUTAMINE and rest 3-5 minutes. Drink BCAAsthroughout first few sets of arms and then when finsihed with arms take another serving (5g+) of Glutamine and another of BCAAs (4g+) and then finish up with 4 quick sets of traps (heavy dumbell shrugs.) Then about 5-10 minutes later consume high calorie/ protien shake.

thius is okay because the BCAAs and glutamine spare the usage of msucle for energy! True or False?

[-DedicateD-]

i used to workout for about 2 hours on my longest day

even with long breaks i dont recommend it. the last 30 minutes your intensity is nothing and your going through the motions

my workouts now range from 60-90 min max and i still struggle to keep my intensity up the entire time

[RANA]

I keep my worksout about 45-75 minutes. I only rest for 1 minute inbetween sets except for legs I rest about 90-120 secs.

[Amorphic]

2 hours is too long for most anyone i believe. i stick to an hour and i always feel refreshed the next time i hit the weights

[JSola]

too long bro, i watch these two guys in my gym who have been doing 2 hours for ages. they spend an hour on 1 bodypart then an hour on another. they have gotten minimal size with decent definition. if your looking to stay smaller be my guest, but i know that after about an hour to 90min you go into ketosis and break down muscle.

[Ronnie Rowland]

90 minutes max!

Also, there's no solid evidence to suggest extra "ORAL" glutamine taken on top of all the protein we already consume reduces muscle catabolism. My friend, Layne Norton has been sounding off about this for some time on another board..

[timtim]

your hormone levels are used up by then making cortisol even worse to combat. 2 hours is long.

[yungfaceb3]

but dont the anabolic muscle sparing anti-catabolic properties of both L-Glutamine and BCAAs prevent the body from becoming catbolic and muscle burning? Well thats what the supplements are for, and if you only work out for 30min- 1 hour ecery body part once a week...what the hell is the point of taking these suppllements? they are made so that you can train longer, harder, and more often. Right? I don't think the problem is so much the catobolism as the lack of intensity.

[godkilla]

not even while on steroids would i train that long. the word excessive comes to mind.

[Ronnie Rowland]

but dont the anabolic muscle sparing anti-catabolic properties of both L-Glutamine and BCAAs prevent the body from becoming catbolic and muscle burning? Well thats what the supplements are for, and if you only work out for 30min- 1 hour ecery body part once a week...what the hell is the point of taking these suppllements? they are made so that you can train longer, harder, and more often. Right? I don't think the problem is so much the catobolism as the lack of intensity.

Supplements are no comparison to steroids like trenbolone.

Extra oral glutamine is good for irritable bowl syndrome, but it's not going to prevent muscle loss working out 2 hours at a time. When using a very high-volume training schedule, extra glutamine might prevent catabolism-triggered infections. But, there's not a lot of value in administering hords of glutaimine because of it's limited availability for uptake.

Peter Garlick, the "Godfather of amino acid research" injected glutamine and it had no effect on muscle protein synthesis or muscle degradation.

***
Clin Nutr. 1996 Oct ;15 (5):267-73 16844055

Effect of a short-term infusion of glutamine on muscle protein metabolism postoperatively.

[My paper] A Januszkiewicz , P Ess?n , M A McNurlan , G A Calder , K Andersson , J Wernerman , P J Garlick

The acute effect of a short-term postoperative infusion of glucose supplemented withglutamine (0.285 g/kg body weight), on muscle protein metabolism, was studied by analyses of free amino acid concentrations and determinations of protein synthesis. A glutamine-glucose infusion was given for 5.5 h to 6 patients 2-3 days after elective surgery for colon cancer. The free glutamine concentration was 5.72 +/- 0.96 mmol/kg wet weight (ww) before and 6.14 +/- 1.10 mmol/kg ww 4 h after the glutamine infusion. The rate of protein synthesis was 1.26 +/- 0.15%/24 h before the infusion and 1.12 +/- 0.16%/24 h during its latter part. The percentage of polyribosomes was 42.2 +/- 3.4% before and 40.9 +/- 1.3% after the infusion. The results showed no difference in these biochemical parameters, indicating that a short-term infusion of glutamine given postoperatively is insufficient to affect protein metabolism in human skeletal muscle.

[yungfaceb3]

well regardless of what happened in the experiment or whatever you are talking about...Glutamine has been scientifically proven to both vastly increase protein synthesis and create an anti-catbabolic environmnet inside of the body. Whether this is enough to sustain a 2 hour workout is debatable, but what it has been rpoven in clinical trials to do is not. And in regards to the 2 hour workout...you forgot to add the usage of BCAAs to the equation as I originally administered in the starting post. And slingshot guru...didn't musclescience email you the same thing as he did me? the article about the 160 different studies in resistance training? Because according to that the slingshot training low volume system is "scientifically" PROVEN to have no superior or beneficial characteristics over a highset high volume trianing riutine suchg as arnolds! I think what most people beleive speculation to be fact, and when they use this specualtion to bash supplments, bodybuilders, types of training, and diets then that is just is ignorant.

[Ajc330]

too long bro, i watch these two guys in my gym who have been doing 2 hours for ages. they spend an hour on 1 bodypart then an hour on another. they have gotten minimal size with decent definition. if your looking to stay smaller be my guest, but i know that after about an hour to 90min you go into ketosis and break down muscle.

you stay in the gym for 2 hours to know they are there for that long?

[yungfaceb3]

lol..good point Ajc330. Let me just say that I do not like to work out for 2 hours in a day nor do I hardly ever do it. The reason I made this thread is because my last workout ended up being like 2 hours because the first 20 minutes I had a migrain that drastically slowed my pace. After my head was clear, however, the pace quickly retunred to normnal and I ran through the rest of it. I did supplment with the glutamine and BCAAs in an attempt to make the best of it, but I knew it was too long. I was simply wonmdering if a two hour workout is evr alright given the proper supplementation and scenario. My greatest workouts take place in the time of about an hour and 10-15 minutes of hard intensity..sometimes even less. My muscles get really pumped and I am not tired and beat the rest of the day, but ont his occassiona 2 hour workout happened and I was curious about if it was possibly to get away with it on a rare occassion with good supplementation. So don't say ignorant shyt like "if your looking to stay smaller" ...man you don't know me and you dont know how I do. I don't put on an avergae of 25 pound sof muscle a year for nothing. and you all can say oohh..noo thats physically impossible unless you take steroids and all this and that but i aint never even so much as held an anabolic steroid much less used one and everyone I know can attest to my progressive gains so...if you don't what your talking about..please....please..shut the hel up.

[Lexed]

when I first started working out I thought the longer I stayed in the gym and the more sets I did the bigger I would get. Its completely the opposite

[Ronnie Rowland]

well regardless of what happened in the experiment or whatever you are talking about...Glutamine has been scientifically proven to both vastly increase protein synthesis and create an anti-catbabolic environmnet inside of the body. Whether this is enough to sustain a 2 hour workout is debatable, but what it has been rpoven in clinical trials to do is not. And in regards to the 2 hour workout...you forgot to add the usage of BCAAs to the equation as I originally administered in the starting post. And slingshot guru...didn't musclescience email you the same thing as he did me? the article about the 160 different studies in resistance training? Because according to that the slingshot training low volume system is "scientifically" PROVEN to have no superior or beneficial characteristics over a highset high volume trianing riutine suchg as arnolds! I think what most people beleive speculation to be fact, and when they use this specualtion to bash supplments, bodybuilders, types of training, and diets then that is just is ignorant.

I did in fact take a look at the paper muscle science sent. I have read that study prior. I do not agree with everything that study said because some of it goes againt things we as bodybuilders have learned to be correct.

I'm in no way saying glutamine does not work. But, show me a study that proves taking additional oral glutaimine on top of a high protein diet will do what you claim? I am very skeptical at this point with all the recent studies suggesting otherwise.

[yungfaceb3]

slingshot guru..how can you disagree with "scientific evidence" that goes agaisnt what some bodybuilders have "learned to be correct." And yet you bash glutamine because of "scientific evidence" that goes against what ALOT of bodybuilders and almsot all supplement companies, fitness magazines, and fitness experts have "learned to be correct." ??? It almsot sounds as if you simply choose what you think is correct or not based upon your personal opinions. If a scientific study draws a conclusion that goes against what you beleive..you disagree with it and don't believe it, but if it supports your opinions it must be factual. So I guess the ultimate source of what is factual and what is speculation is simply...you! But anyways, abou the glutamine studies...they were allways conducted under a scenario of LOW VOLUME training and never under that of HIGH VOLUME of seriously intense training. It has been proven that it has anti catabolic/ anabolic effects on ill patients, but not so much athletes of a low volume training regimen. A study of high volume/intesnity training to the max would likely yield results of anti-catabolism/ anabolism!

[JSola]

you stay in the gym for 2 hours to know they are there for that long?

I work there dude

[JSola]

lol..good point Ajc330. Let me just say that I do not like to work out for 2 hours in a day nor do I hardly ever do it. The reason I made this thread is because my last workout ended up being like 2 hours because the first 20 minutes I had a migrain that drastically slowed my pace. After my head was clear, however, the pace quickly retunred to normnal and I ran through the rest of it. I did supplment with the glutamine and BCAAs in an attempt to make the best of it, but I knew it was too long. I was simply wonmdering if a two hour workout is evr alright given the proper supplementation and scenario. My greatest workouts take place in the time of about an hour and 10-15 minutes of hard intensity..sometimes even less. My muscles get really pumped and I am not tired and beat the rest of the day, but ont his occassiona 2 hour workout happened and I was curious about if it was possibly to get away with it on a rare occassion with good supplementation. So don't say ignorant shyt like "if your looking to stay smaller" ...man you don't know me and you dont know how I do. I don't put on an avergae of 25 pound sof muscle a year for nothing. and you all can say oohh..noo thats physically impossible unless you take steroids and all this and that but i aint never even so much as held an anabolic steroid much less used one and everyone I know can attest to my progressive gains so...if you don't what your talking about..please....please..shut the hel up.

I only said "if you want to stay smaller" because some people do not want to get bulky. staying for two hours will get you gains, but because of the breakdown of your proteins i've seen that these guys who like longer training sessions end up smaller but with good definition. they dont put on as much size. the anti-catabolic effects of glutamine and bcaa's goes without saying, but what i am saying is that its not enough to keep your body from leeching protein from your muscle fibers. just because you take a bit of "anti-catabolic superjuice" doesn't mean you can lift for ridiculous amounts of time. your body needs to replenish itself, clearing lactic acid, building energy stores within the muscle, restoring blood sugars, etc.

And I'm just curious, but you ask a question and we give you our answers based on our experience and knowledge which is what this forum is for, but all you do is argue with us and call us ignorant. if you are so sure about what you know, why are you asking us?

[yungfaceb3]

I don't argue with anybody. When someone says something ignorant, then I point it out. Simple as that. As far as asking a question and getting it answered....YOU JSola are the FIRST to give me a legitamate answer. If you look back you will see that people disregarded the usage of BCAAs and glutamine, and then I would make a comment asking about them. Then someone would go on a rant about how glutamine really wasn'y any good and wanting to debate the effeiciency of "oral" glutamine. So then I made ANOTHER comment stating that everyone had forgot to add the consumption of BCAAs to the equation....and finally...you have given me an answer that fit the entire question. And you know what ...I personally agree with what you said. My normnal workouts go about 1 hour and 15 minutes. By this time my intensity and energy are just starting to show signs of deterioration, and at this point I put down about 5 grams of glutamine...go change into work clothes..and then down a high calorie/mixed protein shake to feed my muscles. A 2 hour workout is usually to long..and they usally only occur on a day when I am dragging the first half hour or so on a heavy day of long rest periods. I was just making this forum to ask the question if...on this RARE occassion...and with the addition of anti catobolic intra and post workout supplementation...under the scenario I laid out...whether or I not i was TOO counterproductive in the gym

[Johny-too-small]

Either by injury or atrophy, you'll learn (or not). No, Im not going to sit here and say why, because experience proves it and you'll just grovel on and on, anyway.

[yungfaceb3]

grovel on about what? I already said that 2 hours was too long..and I don't work out for two hours myself.

[Amorphic]

Glutamine is useless IMO. Studies may prove it is helpful for anticatabolic purposes but the degree in which it actually helps is marginal i believe.

[JSola]

alright yungface if you want to check out some other cool stuff check these out:
Tibulus Terrestris-Safe alternative to anabolic steroids, stimulates immune response
and production of several hormones
Arginine-Used to increase levels of growth hormone
BCAAs-Used as an energy source for muscles and as anabolic agents
Chrysin-Anti-etrogen activity, inhibits testosterone from changing to estrogen
CLA-Believed to reduce body fat and promote lean muscle
Creatine-Used as an energy source within muscles, increases muscle size and strength
Fatty Acids/DHA&EPA-Improves athletic performance, post-exercise recovery,
immune resistance, and endurance
Forskolin-Rebuilds skeletal muscle tissue
Glucosamine Chondriton MSM-Joint health and rebuilding
Glutamine-Used for optimal protein metabolism, supports immune function
Glycerol-Pulls excess fluid from the skin, used as a diuretic
Guar Gum-Reduces blood cholesterol and control food cravings
HMB-Reduces protein breakdown
L-Carnitine-Beneficial for cardiac muscle, improves cardiac performance
Lipoic Acid-Improves energy yield from food, strong antioxidant activity
Ornithine-Used to increase growth hormone levels
Pectin-Slows transit of carbs to stomach, prevents rapid increase of blood sugar
Pyruvic Acid-Improves energy production from food, helps increase endurance
Vanadium-Used for certain forms of insulin resistance
Polyphenols-Powerful antioxidants, prevents oxidative damage to the body

[JSola]

oh ya, ZMA has been shown to raise natural test in some cases as much as 33% as well

[Ronnie Rowland]

slingshot guru..how can you disagree with "scientific evidence" that goes agaisnt what some bodybuilders have "learned to be correct." And yet you bash glutamine because of "scientific evidence" that goes against what ALOT of bodybuilders and almsot all supplement companies, fitness magazines, and fitness experts have "learned to be correct." ??? It almsot sounds as if you simply choose what you think is correct or not based upon your personal opinions. If a scientific study draws a conclusion that goes against what you beleive..you disagree with it and don't believe it, but if it supports your opinions it must be factual. So I guess the ultimate source of what is factual and what is speculation is simply...you! But anyways, abou the glutamine studies...they were allways conducted under a scenario of LOW VOLUME training and never under that of HIGH VOLUME of seriously intense training. It has been proven that it has anti catabolic/ anabolic effects on ill patients, but not so much athletes of a low volume training regimen. A study of high volume/intesnity training to the max would likely yield results of anti-catabolism/ anabolism!

I base my decisions on real life experiences not placebo effects or studies. I try my very best to be un-biased and make the right decisions. If my decisons were based merely on what worked for me then everyone using the Slingshot Training System would not be breaking plateaus. I am a very opened minded person!

Now I never said glutamine didn't work. What I said was this- in my profession as a personal trainer I have seen no evidence to suggest it works as described. Meaning if you work out for 2 hours it won't keep you from losing muscle tissue but a strong anabolic like tren can. Arnold himself was a big fan of Tren!

The studies done that show glutamine prevents catabolism were done intraveneously. Very little oral glutamine is able to get past digestion and make it's way to the muscles. And there's no studies that prove glutamine enhances protein synthesis that I am aware of.

There are some legit studies proving amino acids worth. Still yet, over-training of the CNS will cause muscle loss. Even on Tren you could eventually lose start losing muscle training 2 hours a day if you push the intensity.

Back to the Arnold thing once again. He made the bulk of gains working out only 3 days per week. Did you realize this? Also, I met a guy who used to watch him train off-season and he said Arnold did only around 8 work sets twice a week per major bodypart in the off-season not 15-20. It's my understanding that he did do the extra sets during pre-contest mode.

Arnold sent me an e-mail back in the summer. I love Arnie but his training is not for today and I think he would be the first to tell you if had to go back and do it over he would have done much less.

I hope they do some more studies with glutamine on very advanced bodybuilders.

[yungfaceb3]

you are actually right, alot of the glutamine is absorbed by digestion and the lining of the stomach. But when training, your body is focused on the repair of itself and the return to homeostasis so the body, smart as it is, uses the glutamine for its protein synthesis increasing/ anti-catabolic properties. I am about to take MHP glutamine which is 300% more absorbed by the body as it has an agent or enzyme that allows the glutamine to pass by the stomach and be used soley by the muscles...also it is time released over 12 hours. It may work..it may not. Science behind it sounds pretty good, and its pretty inexpensive so why not? FLEX magazine, Mens Health,Muscle and Fitness and several other fitness magazines and bodybuilders are very ademate about glutamine and its effectiveness based on studies and testimonies from " real life experiences." Back to the Arnold thing, I am not saying you or your freind are incorrect about his training. In Arnold's Encyclopedia of Modern Bodybuilding, he himself talks about the importance of high set training, and in the training programs he provides, even at the Level I Beginer stage (which is the lowest) he reccomends 12-16 sets per major body part and 8-10 for smaller ones, and it is just hard for me to believe that an olympia status, record breaking, history making, pioneer of bodybuilding like arnold would train on the level he reccomended for extreme beginers completely new too the world of bodybuilding. It just sounds..a bit fishy. But anyways, I worked out today in like an hour or less and had a great workout...I thorougly enjoy the hour to hour and 15 minute workouts...this is more beneficial and better than 2 hours..i know this...i can feel this. You yuorself said 90 minutes max so 90 minutes you can get away with without being anti productive and losing muscle but 90 minutes is about the limit right? and "usually" everything following that is probbaly overtraining?

[mustbbig]

man don't F with the guru...he knows more then you could wish to fit in your entire brain if that were its seldom purpose. Trust me,if you listen to all advice,you will be a very very big person... I myself have gotten help from him...people started telling me I was looking bigger in less than 3 weeks (2 of which was the prime)