Help my doubt on DHTs

[ChuckLee]

Recently I've read a interesting article on DHTs so I have a new doubt to clear..
Dihydrotestosterone is theorically something like 5 times more androgen than testosterone, so DHT compounds can cause a heavier suppress on HPTA function.
But nortestosterone (nandrolone) is MORE anabolic and LESS androgen than test. Is this due to the 19-nor conversion of the molecule?
Then, 19nors aromatize about 20% of how testosterone does, so why are we always speaking about deca-d i c k and HPTA suppression heavier than test, even if a nortest is less androgen than normal test?
I personally think that when people speak about HPTA suppression with deca, for example, is something like a dramatization, because theorically test is more androgen and aromatize more than deca, am I wrong on this?

Hoping than some wise vet and anybody else may clear my questions.
Thanks

CL

[Sculpture]

Both will shut down yer natural test production hard. The deca has progesterone in it, thats what makes ya limp. Do you understand what I'm sayin? People think deca is more suppressive that test but its really the same. They both turn u off the difference is when you have injected test you will hav sex drive even though its not from your own natural production which is turned off. When you hav injected deca you dont hav sex drive cuz your man-organ wont run on deca and your natural test is shut off. Make sense?

[soulstealer]

Both will shut down yer natural test production hard. The deca has progesterone in it, thats what makes ya limp. Do you understand what I'm sayin? People think deca is more suppressive that test but its really the same. They both turn u off the difference is when you have injected test you will hav sex drive even though its not from your own natural production which is turned off. When you hav injected deca you dont hav sex drive cuz your man-organ wont run on deca and your natural test is shut off. Make sense?

It doesnt "have protesterone in it" it acts on your progesterone Deca and tren are more suppressive then testosterone... they will shut you down quick and hard... bust some of what you say is correct in that W/O test the human body has trouble working... Sculpture you have to look at steroids as foreign elements to your body.... you need test for basic physiological function but where does your body normally use deca... it doesnt but exogenious deca still suppress your HPTA so you get deca dick.... just run test with every cycle even if its 100mg EW I think its important...and when you speak of a chemicals actions on ones body... it depends on a ton of factors including the chemicals afinity for bonding to receptor sites and other things...

[Discipline_1]

Both will shut down yer natural test production hard. The deca has progesterone in it, thats what makes ya limp.

Ya high progesterone is a bitch, i will never run deca again without caber on hand, i have never used caber but here it works wonders

[soulstealer]

Ya high progesterone is a bitch, i will never run deca again without caber on hand, i have never used caber but here it works wonders

Personally I found aromasin or l-dex to work as they reduce the effect on your progesterone receptors...aromasin at 20mg ED was perfect for me at 525 mg of tren and 800mg of test EW

[james21]

thats good to know, i didnt know aromasin effected that. However i know caber is fuc**ng awesome. Brings libido back like none other and kills any prog side effects.

[james21]

I don' think you should base too much on those numbers, we all know that what looks perfect on paper isnt always true in real life. Also those numbers dont directly correlate with hpta suppression

[ChuckLee]

Thank you all guys. I'm on the path of complete understanding.
I'd also want to hear Tai's opinion on that...

[ChuckLee]

Bump

[Drummerboy]

A lot of things in this thread are right... but a little wrong too. Deca may act on the progesterone receptor. It suppresses the HPTA different from person to person, but can shut you down pretty hard, tren is worse. In the absence of natural test problems with sexual function occur. Thats why you take test with it, to maintain all the functions test has in the body. Aromasin kills the aromatase enzyme, ldex competes for it. This only serves to stop test converting to estrogen (or anything that uses the aromatase enzyme)

When you say that a DHT is a much stronger androgen, your right. It does things to me that prove it. Sweats, a bit of aggression, high BP etc. Its debatable that tren is 5x more anabolic, cause i dont gain 5x more when on it. It is however very strong, and deca is great for mass too, without a doubt. I would always use test as a base for any cycle. I like to use it just alone. It works awsome for me.

Even though not all people will totally shut down if they take JUST deca or JUST tren, you likely will. If you were to try to take 500mg of deca a week, i think in a few weeks you will start to feel the effects of low test. Lethargy, loss of appetite, no libido etc. This is to the best of my knowledge so far...

~DB~

[ChuckLee]

Thanks drummer and congratulations for becoming anabolic
But I was not asking for replace test with a DHT, absolutely! I was just wondering why 19-nor are so suppressive even having a minor androgen rate than test...but now I caught this, I know test is the more suppressive AAS on HPTA, for sure. But test has also the function to replace your natty since it is pretty lowered by AAS themselves.
What I cannot understand yet is the fact that DHT derivates, such 19nor and so trenbolones, are more anabolic and less androgen than test itself, while DHT (that converted from test) is chemically way more androgen than test. Is this due to the 19-nor conversion?

[Dog-Slime]

The Hypothalamus has Androgen, Estrogen, and Progesterone receptors.

Each and EVERY anabolic steroid affects these receptors DIFFERENTLY.

Some steroids affect ALL receptors, while some only affect ONE type of receptor, while others have very little effect on ANY of these receptors.

Steroids that cause an OVERSATURATION(too many receptors activated) of these various hormone receptors, WILL CAUSE SHUTDOWN.

Steroids that DO NOT CAUSE an OVERSATURATION of ANY of these various hormone receptors, will NOT cause SHUTDOWN!

The Following drugs either DIRECTLY or INDIRECTLY activate ESTROGEN receptors, to varying degrees:

Testosterone
Methandrostenolone
Mathandriol
Oxymetholone
Nandrolone
Boldenone

The Following drugs either DIRECTLY or INDIRECTLY activate PROGESTERONE receptors, to varying degrees:

Nandrolone
Trenbolone
Oxymetholone

The Following drugs activate Androgen receptors, to varying degrees:

Testosterone
Methandrostenolone
Mathandriol
Oxymetholone
Nandrolone
Boldenone
Trenbolone
Halotestin
Oxandrolone
Stanzolol
Chlorodehydromethltestosterone
Methyltestosterone
Methenolone...
(ALL AAS*)

As we can see, the steroids that cause HPTA SHUTDOWN either OVERSATURATE ONE SPECIFIC receptor, or they activate too many TOTAL receptors(Androgen/Estrogen/Progesterone)

For instance, Trenbolone causes HPTA SHUTDOWN because it OVERSATURATES BOTH, the ANDROGEN and the PROGESTERONE receptors.

Testosterone causes SHUTDOWN because it converts to ESTROGEN and DHT, therefore, it oversaturates the Androgen/Estrogen receptors.

As we can ALSO SEE, the steroids that DO NOT cause SHUTDOWN of the HPTA, do NOT oversaturate ANY of the different hormone receptors, and thus, do NOT cause SHUTDOWN.

Methenolone(Primobolan) does not possess ANY Estrogenic or Progestational ACTIVITY WHATSOEVER. It does, by virtue of being an anabolic steroid, posses a SMALL Androgenic component. Because it lacks ANY ESTROGENIC/PROGESTATIONAL component, and it lacks a strong Androgenic component, it WILL NOT CAUSE SHUTDOWN!

Oxandrolone(Anavar) posseses NO Estrogenic/Progestational component either. AND, it also lacks a strong androgenic component. Thus, Anavar will NOT cause shutdown.

[ChuckLee]

Very good read bro.
Thanks

[football2007]

The Hypothalamus has Androgen, Estrogen, and Progesterone receptors.

Each and EVERY anabolic steroid affects these receptors DIFFERENTLY.

Some steroids affect ALL receptors, while some only affect ONE type of receptor, while others have very little effect on ANY of these receptors.

Steroids that cause an OVERSATURATION(too many receptors activated) of these various hormone receptors, WILL CAUSE SHUTDOWN.

Steroids that DO NOT CAUSE an OVERSATURATION of ANY of these various hormone receptors, will NOT cause SHUTDOWN!

The Following drugs either DIRECTLY or INDIRECTLY activate ESTROGEN receptors, to varying degrees:

Testosterone
Methandrostenolone
Mathandriol
Oxymetholone
Nandrolone
Boldenone

The Following drugs either DIRECTLY or INDIRECTLY activate PROGESTERONE receptors, to varying degrees:

Nandrolone
Trenbolone
Oxymetholone

The Following drugs activate Androgen receptors, to varying degrees:

Testosterone
Methandrostenolone
Mathandriol
Oxymetholone
Nandrolone
Boldenone
Trenbolone
Halotestin
Oxandrolone
Stanzolol
Chlorodehydromethltestosterone
Methyltestosterone
Methenolone...
(ALL AAS*)

As we can see, the steroids that cause HPTA SHUTDOWN either OVERSATURATE ONE SPECIFIC receptor, or they activate too many TOTAL receptors(Androgen/Estrogen/Progesterone)

For instance, Trenbolone causes HPTA SHUTDOWN because it OVERSATURATES BOTH, the ANDROGEN and the PROGESTERONE receptors.

Testosterone causes SHUTDOWN because it converts to ESTROGEN and DHT, therefore, it oversaturates the Androgen/Estrogen receptors.

As we can ALSO SEE, the steroids that DO NOT cause SHUTDOWN of the HPTA, do NOT oversaturate ANY of the different hormone receptors, and thus, do NOT cause SHUTDOWN.

Methenolone(Primobolan) does not possess ANY Estrogenic or Progestational ACTIVITY WHATSOEVER. It does, by virtue of being an anabolic steroid, posses a SMALL Androgenic component. Because it lacks ANY ESTROGENIC/PROGESTATIONAL component, and it lacks a strong Androgenic component, it WILL NOT CAUSE SHUTDOWN!

Oxandrolone(Anavar) posseses NO Estrogenic/Progestational component either. AND, it also lacks a strong androgenic component. Thus, Anavar will NOT cause shutdown.

Thank you.

Usually I am against quoting long posts, but this needs to be seen twice.

There was a lot of flat of WRONG information posted here before you came and cleared it up.

A lot here do not understand how the PR works..

[Dog-Slime]

Very good read bro.
Thanks

No problem man. Pulled that off another board

[kfrost06]

The Hypothalamus has Androgen, Estrogen, and Progesterone receptors.

Each and EVERY anabolic steroid affects these receptors DIFFERENTLY.

Some steroids affect ALL receptors, while some only affect ONE type of receptor, while others have very little effect on ANY of these receptors.

Steroids that cause an OVERSATURATION(too many receptors activated) of these various hormone receptors, WILL CAUSE SHUTDOWN.

Steroids that DO NOT CAUSE an OVERSATURATION of ANY of these various hormone receptors, will NOT cause SHUTDOWN!

The Following drugs either DIRECTLY or INDIRECTLY activate ESTROGEN receptors, to varying degrees:

Testosterone
Methandrostenolone
Mathandriol
Oxymetholone
Nandrolone
Boldenone

The Following drugs either DIRECTLY or INDIRECTLY activate PROGESTERONE receptors, to varying degrees:

Nandrolone
Trenbolone
Oxymetholone

The Following drugs activate Androgen receptors, to varying degrees:

Testosterone
Methandrostenolone
Mathandriol
Oxymetholone
Nandrolone
Boldenone
Trenbolone
Halotestin
Oxandrolone
Stanzolol
Chlorodehydromethltestosterone
Methyltestosterone
Methenolone...
(ALL AAS*)

As we can see, the steroids that cause HPTA SHUTDOWN either OVERSATURATE ONE SPECIFIC receptor, or they activate too many TOTAL receptors(Androgen/Estrogen/Progesterone)

For instance, Trenbolone causes HPTA SHUTDOWN because it OVERSATURATES BOTH, the ANDROGEN and the PROGESTERONE receptors.

Testosterone causes SHUTDOWN because it converts to ESTROGEN and DHT, therefore, it oversaturates the Androgen/Estrogen receptors.

As we can ALSO SEE, the steroids that DO NOT cause SHUTDOWN of the HPTA, do NOT oversaturate ANY of the different hormone receptors, and thus, do NOT cause SHUTDOWN.

Methenolone(Primobolan) does not possess ANY Estrogenic or Progestational ACTIVITY WHATSOEVER. It does, by virtue of being an anabolic steroid, posses a SMALL Androgenic component. Because it lacks ANY ESTROGENIC/PROGESTATIONAL component, and it lacks a strong Androgenic component, it WILL NOT CAUSE SHUTDOWN!

Oxandrolone(Anavar) posseses NO Estrogenic/Progestational component either. AND, it also lacks a strong androgenic component. Thus, Anavar will NOT cause shutdown.

^^^Total fiction on so many levels I don't know where to begin. Let's start with oversaturation or "OVERSATURATION" as youput it. There is no such thing, not as a word or in the use of gear. First saturation is the point where every receptor is bound by gear. This does not happen for if they all are binding with your gear your body will make new receptors, yes the body will make more receptors. You increase your dose you increase you results, if all receptors were bound an increase in dose would have zero effect. Now oversaturation is not even a term, super saturation is but that pertains to solutions, if you dissolve sugar in water it will dissolve until it reaches it's saturation point then you will see the sugar settle at the bottom. Heat the solution up and the extra sugar dissolves, cool it back down and you now have a super saturation.

Anyways I digress. Every steroid on the list can and will cause a total shut down, some just take longer than others. As for deca/tren a dose as small as 100mg(nowhere near a saturation) will shut you down. see attached figure which plots plasma testosterone of healthy young men after recieving just 1 x 100mg of deca.

Reference the Minto study...http://jpet.aspetjournals.org/cgi/content/full/281/1/93

[football2007]

No problem man. Pulled that off another board

thought so, that looked very familiar.

[ChuckLee]

WOW this thread is becoming very interesting

[Dog-Slime]

^^^Total fiction on so many levels I don't know where to begin. Let's start with oversaturation or "OVERSATURATION" as youput it. There is no such thing, not as a word or in the use of gear. First saturation is the point where every receptor is bound by gear. This does not happen for if they all are binding with your gear your body will make new receptors, yes the body will make more receptors. You increase your dose you increase you results, if all receptors were bound an increase in dose would have zero effect. Now oversaturation is not even a term, super saturation is but that pertains to solutions, if you dissolve sugar in water it will dissolve until it reaches it's saturation point then you will see the sugar settle at the bottom. Heat the solution up and the extra sugar dissolves, cool it back down and you now have a super saturation.

Anyways I digress. Every steroid on the list can and will cause a total shut down, some just take longer than others. As for deca/tren a dose as small as 100mg(nowhere near a saturation) will shut you down. see attached figure which plots plasma testosterone of healthy young men after recieving just 1 x 100mg of deca.

Reference the Minto study...http://jpet.aspetjournals.org/cgi/content/full/281/1/93

Like I said I didn't write it bro, I just copied it over cause it sounded good to me. The lingo might not be technically correct but I think its atleast on the right track. Also, I edited some of it out as it was talking about making and planning extended cycles or some shit, but it did mention that any steroid will eventually cause total shutdown. Are you saying that its not correct or just that some of the lingo is off?

[NightWolf]

I was just wondering why 19-nor are so suppressive even having a minor androgen rate than test...test.

Ok friend i will try to explain this the best way i can. To understand this
one must first understand that every AAS has there own diffrent way
of suppressing/shutting down the HPTA.

If we take test for ex,
the first and mainly reason that test shuts you down is all that
excess estrogen! Second reason is the androgenic part, your body will
see that you all of the sudden have to much androgenic activity
and will try to balance things by ordering the HPTA to produce less.


Now on to the 19-nors,
We can take deca as ex. Some say "your HPTA shuts down so hard on deca because your body will recognize it as test" well thats not the whole truth
because otherwise test whould shut you down harder and longer then deca.

Deca is NOT a progestrone, it acts as an progesterone. And what does progesterone do? It highly increases PROLACTIN levels! It seems some forget just how suppresive prolactin is. Just look at patients that suffer from Prolactinoma, Pituitary Macroadenoma, they have VERY LOW sex drive and there test levels are also VERY LOW. Both Prolactinoma and Pituitary Macroadenoma are caused by tumors producing to much prolactin.

So the answer to your question is prolactin. Thats why 19-nors will shut you down harder then Test.

[ChuckLee]

Ok friend i will try to explain this the best way i can. To understand this
one must first understand that every AAS has there own diffrent way
of suppressing/shutting down the HPTA.

If we take test for ex,
the first and mainly reason that test shuts you down is all that
excess estrogen! Second reason is the androgenic part, your body will
see that you all of the sudden have to much androgenic activity
and will try to balance things by ordering the HPTA to produce less.


Now on to the 19-nors,
We can take deca as ex. Some say "your HPTA shuts down so hard on deca because your body will recognize it as test" well thats not the whole truth
because otherwise test whould shut you down harder and longer then deca.

Deca is NOT a progestrone, it acts as an progesterone. And what does progesterone do? It highly increases PROLACTIN levels! It seems some forget just how suppresive prolactin is. Just look at patients that suffer from Prolactinoma, Pituitary Macroadenoma, they have VERY LOW sex drive and there test levels are also VERY LOW. Both Prolactinoma and Pituitary Macroadenoma are caused by tumors producing to much prolactin.

So the answer to your question is prolactin. Thats why 19-nors will shut you down harder then Test.

Very educative read bro. Thanks.
So nandrolone usually bind with progesterone receptors which increase prolactin. Nolva increases prolactin level too, right, that's why we can't take a SERM in conjunction with a 19-nor, because it would worsen the sides?

CL

[ChuckLee]

Bump

[NightWolf]

Very educative read bro. Thanks.
So nandrolone usually bind with progesterone receptors which increase prolactin. Nolva increases prolactin level too, right, that's why we can't take a SERM in conjunction with a 19-nor, because it would worsen the sides?

CL

Ya bro, nolva will increase the progesterone receptors
and make them more sensitive. So in that case you will run a
greater chance of prog sides, such as gyno for ex. prolactin will
give you milky tits

[BG]

Ok friend i will try to explain this the best way i can. To understand this
one must first understand that every AAS has there own diffrent way
of suppressing/shutting down the HPTA.

If we take test for ex,
the first and mainly reason that test shuts you down is all that
excess estrogen! Second reason is the androgenic part, your body will
see that you all of the sudden have to much androgenic activity
and will try to balance things by ordering the HPTA to produce less.


Now on to the 19-nors,
We can take deca as ex. Some say "your HPTA shuts down so hard on deca because your body will recognize it as test" well thats not the whole truth
because otherwise test whould shut you down harder and longer then deca.

Deca is NOT a progestrone, it acts as an progesterone. And what does progesterone do? It highly increases PROLACTIN levels! It seems some forget just how suppresive prolactin is. Just look at patients that suffer from Prolactinoma, Pituitary Macroadenoma, they have VERY LOW sex drive and there test levels are also VERY LOW. Both Prolactinoma and Pituitary Macroadenoma are caused by tumors producing to much prolactin.

So the answer to your question is prolactin. Thats why 19-nors will shut you down harder then Test.

Great post, I can run 500mgs of test all year and never become shut down, add 300 mgs of deca and with in a week desenitisation sets in. Prolactin is the cause of leaky nipples, one of the ugly sides of 19 nors for some.

[ChuckLee]

Thanks NW
Thanks BG

CL