lagging chest help! pics included!

[yungfaceb3]

My chest has been a thorn in my side for a long time now and after training with both competitive bodybuilders of old and new school methodology I am at a loss for what to do. My current chest "bring up" program is yeilding results but not nearly as much or as quickly as I would like. Help me out here...I am trying to increse the overall mass of the pecs. and tell me how bad you really think it is....whether or not i am over reacting....and how to improve it. thank you.





[

[MuscleScience]

Patients you will grow if diet and the program are right.

[Johny-too-small]

Based on all your threads regarding training all I have to say to you again is: YOU OVERTRAIN.

[naturalsux]

Based on all your threads regarding training all I have to say to you again is: YOU OVERTRAIN.

i agree, reduce your sets and watch your chest grow.

[THEGOLDPRO]

what do you guys consider over training??? and whats the preferred sets and reps??

[naturalsux]

what do you guys consider over training??? and whats the preferred sets and reps??

i use to do 15-20 sets for chest and got no where. i try to keep it at 6-10 for chest, not counting warm ups.

[yungfaceb3]

lol you guys are so damn ignorant sometimes. Lmao. Me again huh? I havent made a post in several months. and since january I have put on 18.33 pounds of solid muscle without increasing my bf% a single full % and i have shattered all previous lifts countless times again and again week after week. All natural too I am only 20 yoa and refuse to take steroids or any kind of gear. so evidently i am not overtraining..and just because i refuse to do a damn 15 minute workout like you guys propose "puussiee training" for an extrmeely large muscle group such as the pectorals that does not mean i am over training. I have a genetically slower developing chest and on average i hit it with about 16 sets per workout. I do bis and tris 12 sets a peice , quads about 15-20 back 16-20, shoulders 16-20 ..so pretty much everything 16-20 and my progress and growth is THROUGH THE ROOF man I love iT! There are so mnay dudes at my gym that are "know it alls" just like you guys on here...lol...they are competitivle bodybuilders preparing for shows soon and they are on steroids and eating 8 meals a day and all that and they range from young twenties to early forties in age and they all all sling around that "overtrainig" BS and they all train themselves like straight bittches! But they hate on me too ....why?...because I still make SO much more progress than them and have people literally on almost a daily basis tell me how I have improved faster and mnore so than anyone else they know or have seen in the gym and i get this consistently. Forget roids that is such an easy way out cop out bS! If you do the right lifts the right way and eat right and sleep enough..you will grow! lol i guess i am just the man or made for muscles i dunno....!!! I just cannot stop growing! and my chest is growing too...i just didn't know if anyone on here had any advice too help me get it to grow faster but...lol...judging by the ignorance and lack of knowledge witnessed on here once again I better just go with who really knows best..myself.

[Amorphic]

lol you guys are so damn ignorant sometimes. Lmao. Me again huh? I havent made a post in several months. and since january I have put on 18.33 pounds of solid muscle without increasing my bf% a single full % and i have shattered all previous lifts countless times again and again week after week. All natural too I am only 20 yoa and refuse to take steroids or any kind of gear. so evidently i am not overtraining..and just because i refuse to do a damn 15 minute workout like you guys propose "puussiee training" for an extrmeely large muscle group such as the pectorals that does not mean i am over training. I have a genetically slower developing chest and on average i hit it with about 16 sets per workout. I do bis and tris 12 sets a peice , quads about 15-20 back 16-20, shoulders 16-20 ..so pretty much everything 16-20 and my progress and growth is THROUGH THE ROOF man I love iT! There are so mnay dudes at my gym that are "know it alls" just like you guys on here...lol...they are competitivle bodybuilders preparing for shows soon and they are on steroids and eating 8 meals a day and all that and they range from young twenties to early forties in age and they all all sling around that "overtrainig" BS and they all train themselves like straight bittches! But they hate on me too ....why?...because I still make SO much more progress than them and have people literally on almost a daily basis tell me how I have improved faster and mnore so than anyone else they know or have seen in the gym and i get this consistently. Forget roids that is such an easy way out cop out bS! If you do the right lifts the right way and eat right and sleep enough..you will grow! lol i guess i am just the man or made for muscles i dunno....!!! I just cannot stop growing! and my chest is growing too...i just didn't know if anyone on here had any advice too help me get it to grow faster but...lol...judging by the ignorance and lack of knowledge witnessed on here once again I better just go with who really knows best..myself.

[ChuckLee]

lol you guys are so damn ignorant sometimes. Lmao. Me again huh? I havent made a post in several months. and since january I have put on 18.33 pounds of solid muscle without increasing my bf% a single full % and i have shattered all previous lifts countless times again and again week after week. All natural too I am only 20 yoa and refuse to take steroids or any kind of gear. so evidently i am not overtraining..and just because i refuse to do a damn 15 minute workout like you guys propose "puussiee training" for an extrmeely large muscle group such as the pectorals that does not mean i am over training. I have a genetically slower developing chest and on average i hit it with about 16 sets per workout. I do bis and tris 12 sets a peice , quads about 15-20 back 16-20, shoulders 16-20 ..so pretty much everything 16-20 and my progress and growth is THROUGH THE ROOF man I love iT! There are so mnay dudes at my gym that are "know it alls" just like you guys on here...lol...they are competitivle bodybuilders preparing for shows soon and they are on steroids and eating 8 meals a day and all that and they range from young twenties to early forties in age and they all all sling around that "overtrainig" BS and they all train themselves like straight bittches! But they hate on me too ....why?...because I still make SO much more progress than them and have people literally on almost a daily basis tell me how I have improved faster and mnore so than anyone else they know or have seen in the gym and i get this consistently. Forget roids that is such an easy way out cop out bS! If you do the right lifts the right way and eat right and sleep enough..you will grow! lol i guess i am just the man or made for muscles i dunno....!!! I just cannot stop growing! and my chest is growing too...i just didn't know if anyone on here had any advice too help me get it to grow faster but...lol...judging by the ignorance and lack of knowledge witnessed on here once again I better just go with who really knows best..myself.

[Phate]

+10 and my hand is hurting just looking at all the writing your doing, if i wrote that much i wouldn't have to workout forearms at all, they'd be as strong as my legs by now

[SMCengineer]

lol you guys are so damn ignorant sometimes. Lmao. Me again huh? I havent made a post in several months. and since january I have put on 18.33 pounds of solid muscle without increasing my bf% a single full % and i have shattered all previous lifts countless times again and again week after week. All natural too I am only 20 yoa and refuse to take steroids or any kind of gear. so evidently i am not overtraining..and just because i refuse to do a damn 15 minute workout like you guys propose "puussiee training" for an extrmeely large muscle group such as the pectorals that does not mean i am over training. I have a genetically slower developing chest and on average i hit it with about 16 sets per workout. I do bis and tris 12 sets a peice , quads about 15-20 back 16-20, shoulders 16-20 ..so pretty much everything 16-20 and my progress and growth is THROUGH THE ROOF man I love iT! There are so mnay dudes at my gym that are "know it alls" just like you guys on here...lol...they are competitivle bodybuilders preparing for shows soon and they are on steroids and eating 8 meals a day and all that and they range from young twenties to early forties in age and they all all sling around that "overtrainig" BS and they all train themselves like straight bittches! But they hate on me too ....why?...because I still make SO much more progress than them and have people literally on almost a daily basis tell me how I have improved faster and mnore so than anyone else they know or have seen in the gym and i get this consistently. Forget roids that is such an easy way out cop out bS! If you do the right lifts the right way and eat right and sleep enough..you will grow! lol i guess i am just the man or made for muscles i dunno....!!! I just cannot stop growing! and my chest is growing too...i just didn't know if anyone on here had any advice too help me get it to grow faster but...lol...judging by the ignorance and lack of knowledge witnessed on here once again I better just go with who really knows best..myself.

Dude, don't listen to these guys. They don't know what they're talking about. If you want advice I think your undertraining. I normally do 80-85 sets for chest. Try that and I'm sure you'll blow up and then you can laugh at all those bodybuilders haten on you.

[MuscleScience]

Im out of this thread......

[yungfaceb3]

Musclescience i would like to personally thank you for both respectfully responding to my posts and for providing a perfect example for others to follow in how to be courteous and actually respond to questions the right way. I understand exactly what you are saying and I both respect and trust your knowledge. I see where you are coming from on the pecs not being as big amuscle group as may be thought and I understand that it doesn't involve nearly as many muscles as say a squat, deadlift, or clean and press, but I mean I hit everything else hard and it pays off so I am under the impression that my chest development will follow the same path as the rest of my body. Over the years I have drastically decreased the number of sets I do for each bodypart and I have just settled on where i am at now. Chest usually consists of 4 exercises at 4 sets a peice...sometimes 3 exercises at 4 sets a peice and 3-4 sets of a light weight/ low intensity movement such as pec dek flyes. Usually I will start with classic bench press for 4 sets, then i will move on to incline presses for 4 sets followed by 4 sets of dumbell flyes and then 3-4 sets of decline dumbell presses. That may be high volume but when I consider the incredible strength and mass of my deltoids I must contribute them both to my shoulder training which is typically somethng like Behind the neck presses for 4 sets followed by standing side dumbell lateral raises for 4-5 sets, then smith machine shoulder presses to the front for four sets followed by bent over dumbell raises for the rear delts. After this i will typically do 4 sets of shrugs for my traps followed by usually 3 sets of clean and press. On some days I will not do traps or and/or clean and press and will also do a machine for lateral raises....it depends on my energy level...but the majority of the time it is as i listed and this comes out to being what about 24 sets??? but I can go through routine in a relatively short period of time and the steady progression of my traps, shoulders, and back can be seen from this and continuously increases. The problem with my chest is that (A) genetically it is my weakpoint I can tell from my own experiances and by looking at my family..lol. (B) My deltoids are very powerful and sometimes dominant over my chest. (C) I followed the incorrect advice of a competetive bodybuilder friend of mine for a long time and it kinda slowed down my progress. Now that i am doing it my way progress has been made though.
My b-building friend had me doing incline dumbell presses as my main pectoral builder (though i agree it is a wonderful exercise) but he is like 6-7 inches shorter than me and has a stocky, short build with short arms where i have a more natuarlly ectomorphic long armed body....and with my long arms barbells are so much better for me just as dumbells are better for him. I NEVER use really heavy weight and drop the bar really fast and bounce it off of my chest...that is stupid and a waste of time for me..sure you can ALOT more wieght that way..but i like doing it as strictly as possible. I bring it down nice and controlled ALL the way down til the bar just touches my chest and then I smoothly drive it back up. Typically i train heavy in the 6-10 rep range, but for chest i have transitioned more to a mixed rep range and enjoy doing sets oif 12-15 reps as much as my heavier low rep sets. I just am not sure if for my buody i should foucs more on usuing the flat bench to develope overall mass....or becuase of my dominant delts should i use decline / decline dumbell presses moreso often, or becuase I do need upper pec development alot too if i should focus mostly ont his area. I hit it from all areas...I just need help "mastering" my training for this area as I have "in my opinion" mastered trainign every other bodypart i have "for now anyways."

My basic chest routine (though weekly some exercises change)(this my basic breakdown though lately use more higher rep sets.):
Bench Press x10, 8,8,6,4
Incline Press x 10, 8, 8, 6
dumbell flyes x 10, 8, 8, 6
decline dumbell presses x 15, 12, 10, 8


Alternate workout (proposed by a good frend and sometime workout partner of mine):
Incline press x 4
decline press x4
flat dumbell press x 4
incline flyes x 4

we typically decide during our workout whether we will do 3 or 4 sets. sometimes in either workout we will add a slight incline or decline to our flyes or mix it up a little, but these are the backbones of our "most typically used" kind of routine. we do not bs and we are done usually in under an hour and at an hour at the MOST. which one do you think is better?

[Andro9]

why did you ask for advice then? you need to get over yourself bro

[RANA]

Well hell, all these years of me working out wrong, thank God you came alone. Good to know at 20 you have all the answers.

[Sir Lifts-a-lot]

You are impatient. You say yourself that your workouts are increasing mass but not at the speed you want. I think EVERYONE feels this way about pretty much every muscle group. Slow and steady wins the race.

On a side not you ask for opinions and people gave you THEIR OPINIONS!!!! There is no need for you to run off at the mouth and act like you are hot shit and are the know all. If you are then why ask?

[Big]

I gained 4.2lbs and dropped .5%bf just from reading this thread.

[yungfaceb3]

I asked for peoples opinions and inbstead of giving me advice they all did just as YOU did and said "oh that is overtraining." Lol however the results speak for themselves and drastically to the contrary. You are right..in a sense I am being impatient and I realize that my feelings are not unique to me but are common among bodybuilders. The simple fact of the matter is my genetics gave me a chest that does not develope as quickly as my arms, shoulders, back, and legs do. For once I would like to recieve some information to aid me and not this "overtraining bullshyt." I do not think I know it all but I mean damn...when I make overall progress at the rate to which I do then I am justified in claiming to know my shyt. I respect others opinions and admit that I would not have come this far without listening to others' advice and learning from others far more experianced than myself. But at the same time I am so damn sick and tired of all you know it alls with your sorry azz information and overtraining claims. Daily i see guys in the gym just like you, big as hell, strong as hell, wearing a shirt that says "Shut the Fukk up and lift" (or something to that effect) ....and i always wonder to myself "why is he wearing that shirt when 80% of the time he is hear he is socializing and bullshyting around?" I watch these guys workout with there "less is more" 4-9 set workout philosophy and literally never breathe heavy and/or break a sweat. Over the past year the weights they use are the same and rotuines the same..none of them have gained any size buyt either maintained or lost size...and all of them are on steroids. they all also love to call actually working out hard "overtraining." lol you all remind of these guys so much and are probably just like them if not literally them in the flesh. Good genetics, good roids, and sloppy ass training works good for the lucky ones..lol...but you can always spot the ones with this combination because though they may be have impressive physique, size, or strength, they never get beyond where they are...lol...because they always plateau after their genetics and roids carry them as far as possible. They could make improvements if they trained hard..but noooooo...that would be overtraining. And no i do not have pics because I do not take pictures of myself like that. The pics i originally had for this post were the first in over a year and even they messed up somehow when I tried to put them on here. So bottom line if you take steroids you can just shut the hell up becuase your opinions does not really matter if you only do a few sets per day, but if you still hit it hard i still got respect for ya. also if you haven't made gains like me then please do not speak because evidently you have nothing to add to the conversation, and lastly you are all welcome for my enlightening you with my superior knowledge on the subject and inspiring you all with my successes.

[moregunsthanroses]

I gained 4.2lbs and dropped .5%bf just from reading this thread.

Wow there are some really long posts in here I'm sure theres lot's of good info, It's just that I've got ADD.. lol

Sorry dude but I highly doubt you put on 18lbs of solid Muscle, and 18lbs of solid muscle is ahuge acheivement in 1 or 2 years let alone a couple months, I'm skeptical to say the least.

[gettingBIGGERfast]

please, tell us some more about yourself

[Andro9]

please, tell us some more about yourself

i hope your being sarcastic hahaa

[Ajc330]

why don't you start to incorporate dips into your workout, they are a great chest developer that also hits the triceps at the same time

[Ajc330]

BTW your pics come up as little boxes with red "x"s in them, i am curious to your current chest development

[Ajc330]

has anyone seen the pics yet or is it just me

[yungfaceb3]

lol why are all of you hating so hard??? If you all are so "knowledgeable" then you should not see it as such an "impossible task" to gain close to twenty pounds in close to 15 weeks. okay i got over 2 terible colds and food poisening in december and finally got to hit the gym hard again. In my colds and fp i went from about 185 pounds down to like 179 or a bit less. All through december i worked my ass off and put back on about a pound and a half thats it. Once I got my body back conditioned to the gym and got used to my new scedule this semester at school I began a "growth" phase that began on January 4, 2008. On this day I weighed 182-183 pounds mid day fully hydrated and with several meals under my belt. Througout the next five weeks with a diet alteration and training switch up I got up to right about 190-191 pounds early morning dry. Throughtout february I didn't really put on even a full pound but maintained my size and actually had to step down my training a bit for recovery purposes. Aboit thesecond to thrid week in march I cranked up my diet again and began hit the heavy weights again and i have been doing this for a little over 3 weeks now and will continue for at least another full week before relaxing it a little to allow my body to recover fully. And int his weeks i have gone from about 190 to right at 199-201 pounds dry. I give a few pounds of error becuase all scales are different and none tottally accurate. My gains may even be greater but I do not cosnider myself fully hydrated and nourished accurate (though i weigh more this way ) and i aim for increasing my dry weight which is also overall weight. My bodyfat actually went from 11% down to 10% and is closing in on 9% as of this morning ( i havent actually checked that in about 2 weeks.) I do not take steroids and I do not eat 8 meals a day. i eat anywhere from 5-8 meals a day usually in the 5-6 range though it varies and i take in more calories and protein on days i am awake and active longer than on those days I sleep in and go back to sleep early. I gove my body what it needs and listen to it. Supplement wise I take only a pre-workout No2/crreatine supp such as Superpump 250 or NO-Xplode, I take fish oil all throughout the day, multivitamine and extra vitamin C, I take gluamine, and for my protein drink I drink "musclebuilders" which is made at my gym and is a high protein (like 50-60grams) of whey and good carb/protein ratio and is basically ahigh calorie wieght gainer type drink. I also drink a little indivdually packaged muscle milk drink some days throughout the week. besides that I just eat like a MUH FUKKA and i never eat sweets ..candy...or cakes anything like that. I love meat and good carbs. The only mealof the day that is the same daily is brekafast which is 3 whole scrambled eggs with cheese and oatmeal mixed with honey, milk, 1/2 bannana, and 1/2 little box of raisens. I drink a glass of milk with this meal as well. great way to start off the day in an anabolic way!!! I am not concerned with you all beleiving me or not...lol..because regardless of what you all say or choose to think....my body still grows and makes progress...every smart azz discrediting comment you make is irrelevent and doesnt bother me becuase..lmao...why would it...it isnt like it slows down my development or overshadows what people who see me in person congratulate me on daily. so if you aint figured it out..just stfu and quit trying to knock me because I have. I know my gains will soon slow down and stop for a while...this always happens....my body will normalize for several months..but then....once again i will hit agood growth phase...dont hate..just learn from it kiddos!

[SMCengineer]

lol why are all of you hating so hard???

...because of the arrogance of your posts. Not because of what you accomplished.

[yungfaceb3]

I only turned on the arrogance and over acting confidence bits in response to the "your overtraining...your overtraining....your overtraining..." bullshyt that everyone so condescendingly through at me without once regarding my questions with any respect or thought. If you look at how i originally made the post there was no arrogance at all. I only made the arroagnce to make them mad because even though i am being 100% totally honest in all of my claims..these "less is more" activists get so upset because they do not believe in the principle that hard training = hard results! So i apologize for my arrogance ...it was purposely overplayed...i am just tired of all these 5 set/10 minute workout kids telling me i am ovetraining when i am making far greater progress than them...it is annoying..can't someone post a thread on here and get there questions answered for once without people trying to break them down?..i mean damm!

[gettingBIGGERfast]

I only turned on the arrogance and over acting confidence bits in response to the "your overtraining...your overtraining....your overtraining..." bullshyt that everyone so condescendingly through at me without once regarding my questions with any respect or thought. If you look at how i originally made the post there was no arrogance at all. I only made the arroagnce to make them mad because even though i am being 100% totally honest in all of my claims..these "less is more" activists get so upset because they do not believe in the principle that hard training = hard results! So i apologize for my arrogance ...it was purposely overplayed...i am just tired of all these 5 set/10 minute workout kids telling me i am ovetraining when i am making far greater progress than them...it is annoying..can't someone post a thread on here and get there questions answered for once without people trying to break them down?..i mean damm!

who tried to break you down?

[naturalsux]

I only turned on the arrogance and over acting confidence bits in response to the "your overtraining...your overtraining....your overtraining..." bullshyt that everyone so condescendingly through at me without once regarding my questions with any respect or thought. If you look at how i originally made the post there was no arrogance at all. I only made the arroagnce to make them mad because even though i am being 100% totally honest in all of my claims..these "less is more" activists get so upset because they do not believe in the principle that hard training = hard results! So i apologize for my arrogance ...it was purposely overplayed...i am just tired of all these 5 set/10 minute workout kids telling me i am ovetraining when i am making far greater progress than them...it is annoying..can't someone post a thread on here and get there questions answered for once without people trying to break them down?..i mean damm!

I feel sorry for you, your so ignorant.

why cant you just shut up and try something different. learn something about intensity and use it. nobody said shit about 5 sets and 10 min workouts. i said 6-10, not counting warm ups and it takes me 30-45 min.

[borntobeblue]

ha ha ur a flat chested b1tch ha ha

[Big]

It always amazes me when people will come on an open forum with thousands and thousands of members, post a question, then get an attitude when they don't like some of the responses. In actuality, if you found a forum where everyone agreed with you, how would your initial question be answered? It would seem if you had the answer yourself you would not have needed to post the question. Basically it seems that people tend to say "I don't know what the answer is, but I know that's not it". People post their opinion in an attempt to help you with your question, how dare they?

[xlxBigSexyxlx]

how bout for starters, you break up those long ass posts into paragraphs/breaks.

Kinda like this

So its easier to read.

Got it?

Good.

Now you try.

OK, now Im over exaggerating, but you get the point

[Narkissos]

It always amazes me when people will come on an open forum with thousands and thousands of members, post a question, then get an attitude when they don't like some of the responses. In actuality, if you found a forum where everyone agreed with you, how would your initial question be answered? It would seem if you had the answer yourself you would not have needed to post the question. Basically it seems that people tend to say "I don't know what the answer is, but I know that's not it". People post their opinion in an attempt to help you with your question, how dare they?

Doesn't amaze me.

People tend to like to have they hands held.

The fact of the matter is that: "in bodybuilding, everything works... but nothing works forever."

I have to give my former coach, Carl Moore, credit for the above quote.

Nothing works forever.

This sub-200 kid is ranting and raving about the magnificence of his way of training solely because he is yet to reach a plateau.

He pisses on the old timers who have reached said plateau... Dismissing their inability to surpass what may be legitimately insurmountable, as laziness.

This is the ignorance of inexperience.

This.. is just plain ignorance.

That being said... I'll reference Chad Waterbury.

Chad purports that should a plateau be reached, try something different.

Nothing monumental there...right?

Yet... Ignorant bodybuilders, much like the thread originator, opt to continue in a similar vein.

The aforementioned 'vein' in this instance, refers to exponential increases in training volume.

What the thread originator fails to see, something which can be attributed to his arrogance-induced blindness, is that it's time for a change.

While the body as a homogenous system responds to systemic stresses... Some areas may react more favourably to certain stimuli, as compared to others.

Transposing this into the most simple terms, this denotes that:

"High volume may work for legs, but it may not work for pecs"
"High reps may work for calve, but it may not work for back"

How can preferred/required stimuli be ascertained?

Through experimentation.

Ergo, thread originator, if a guy on the board tells you "you are over-training"... and you are, as you are currently, not experiencing the growth you desire from your current manner of training... the intelligent thing to do would be to change your manner of training.

[*shouts*]

GET YOUR HEAD OUT OF YOUR ASS... YOU KNOW NOTHING!

[/*shouts*]

No flame intended of course.

I'm a high-volume, high frequency trainer.

I've always been.

I've been involved in this sport for 10 years.

My pec is my genetic limitation...

But, because everything else grew in response to high volume and frequency, i continued to train my pecs in this manner.

When did i start to make my best pectoral gains?

When i switched my pec training to moderate frequency, very low volume.

I switched from 16 sets twice per week.. to 4 sets twice per week.

My pecs started to grow.

Everything else was still trained in the usual high volume manner... twice per week.

But, my pecs started to grow.

Lesson?

Get your head out of your ass.

You don't know everything.

Don't ask for advice if you don't want it.

And.. oh yea... You're over-training.


-Narkissos

Regional-level IFBB-affiliated bodybuilder
Fitness Consultant
Paid Author

[Amorphic]

Doesn't amaze me.

People tend to like to have they hands held.

The fact of the matter is that: "in bodybuilding, everything works... but nothing works forever."

I have to give my former coach, Carl Moore, credit for the above quote.

Nothing works forever.

This sub-200 kid is ranting and raving about the magnificence of his way of training solely because he is yet to reach a plateau.

He pisses on the old timers who have reached said plateau... Dismissing their inability to surpass what may be legitimately insurmountable, as laziness.

This is the ignorance of inexperience.

This.. is just plain ignorance.

That being said... I'll reference Chad Waterbury.

Chad purports that should a plateau be reached, try something different.

Nothing monumental there...right?

Yet... Ignorant bodybuilders, much like the thread originator, opt to continue in a similar vein.

The aforementioned 'vein' in this instance, refers to exponential increases in training volume.

What the thread originator fails to see, something which can be attributed to his arrogance-induced blindness, is that it's time for a change.

While the body as a homogenous system responds to systemic stresses... Some areas may react more favourably to certain stimuli, as compared to others.

Transposing this into the most simple terms, this denotes that:

"High volume may work for legs, but it may not work for pecs"
"High reps may work for calve, but it may not work for back"

How can preferred/required stimuli be ascertained?

Through experimentation.

Ergo, thread originator, if a guy on the board tells you "you are over-training"... and you are, as you are currently, not experiencing the growth you desire from your current manner of training... the intelligent thing to do would be to change your manner of training.

[*shouts*]

GET YOUR HEAD OUT OF YOUR ASS... YOU KNOW NOTHING!

[/*shouts*]

No flame intended of course.

I'm a high-volume, high frequency trainer.

I've always been.

I've been involved in this sport for 10 years.

My pec is my genetic limitation...

But, because everything else grew in response to high volume and frequency, i continued to train my pecs in this manner.

When did i start to make my best pectoral gains?

When i switched my pec training to moderate frequency, very low volume.

I switched from 16 sets twice per week.. to 4 sets twice per week.

My pecs started to grow.

Everything else was still trained in the usual high volume manner... twice per week.

But, my pecs started to grow.

Lesson?

Get your head out of your ass.

You don't know everything.

Don't ask for advice if you don't want it.

And.. oh yea... You're over-training.


-Narkissos

Regional-level IFBB-affiliated bodybuilder
Fitness Consultant
Paid Author

bump for nark. great post.

[ChuckLee]

Doesn't amaze me.

People tend to like to have they hands held.

The fact of the matter is that: "in bodybuilding, everything works... but nothing works forever."

I have to give my former coach, Carl Moore, credit for the above quote.

Nothing works forever.

This sub-200 kid is ranting and raving about the magnificence of his way of training solely because he is yet to reach a plateau.

He pisses on the old timers who have reached said plateau... Dismissing their inability to surpass what may be legitimately insurmountable, as laziness.

This is the ignorance of inexperience.

This.. is just plain ignorance.

That being said... I'll reference Chad Waterbury.

Chad purports that should a plateau be reached, try something different.

Nothing monumental there...right?

Yet... Ignorant bodybuilders, much like the thread originator, opt to continue in a similar vein.

The aforementioned 'vein' in this instance, refers to exponential increases in training volume.

What the thread originator fails to see, something which can be attributed to his arrogance-induced blindness, is that it's time for a change.

While the body as a homogenous system responds to systemic stresses... Some areas may react more favourably to certain stimuli, as compared to others.

Transposing this into the most simple terms, this denotes that:

"High volume may work for legs, but it may not work for pecs"
"High reps may work for calve, but it may not work for back"

How can preferred/required stimuli be ascertained?

Through experimentation.

Ergo, thread originator, if a guy on the board tells you "you are over-training"... and you are, as you are currently, not experiencing the growth you desire from your current manner of training... the intelligent thing to do would be to change your manner of training.

[*shouts*]

GET YOUR HEAD OUT OF YOUR ASS... YOU KNOW NOTHING!

[/*shouts*]

No flame intended of course.

I'm a high-volume, high frequency trainer.

I've always been.

I've been involved in this sport for 10 years.

My pec is my genetic limitation...

But, because everything else grew in response to high volume and frequency, i continued to train my pecs in this manner.

When did i start to make my best pectoral gains?

When i switched my pec training to moderate frequency, very low volume.

I switched from 16 sets twice per week.. to 4 sets twice per week.

My pecs started to grow.

Everything else was still trained in the usual high volume manner... twice per week.

But, my pecs started to grow.

Lesson?

Get your head out of your ass.

You don't know everything.

Don't ask for advice if you don't want it.

And.. oh yea... You're over-training.


-Narkissos

Regional-level IFBB-affiliated bodybuilder
Fitness Consultant
Paid Author

Great Nark, as ever.
So here a question merges: I have the same genetic limit in my arms, I've been training them in many different manners, but in any case they don't grow as the other parts of my body. So, choering to your post, do you thing I am IN ANY CASE overtraining them? Should I try to cut the sets? Because I've already switched from 9 sets for bis and 9 for tris to 6 sets per each. Because I was afraid I was in fact overtraining them...but I didn't notice any positive change yet...I'm pretty depressed and I'm starting to resign and take the things how they come. The first thread I started in AR was just referring to this problem of mine.
Finally, I suppose that I'm juicing only to see my arms grow, but this process is taking a lot of time bro.

CL

[Narkissos]

Great Nark, as ever.
So here a question merges: I have the same genetic limit in my arms, I've been training them in many different manners, but in any case they don't grow as the other parts of my body. So, choering to your post, do you thing I am IN ANY CASE overtraining them? Should I try to cut the sets? Because I've already switched from 9 sets for bis and 9 for tris to 6 sets per each. Because I was afraid I was in fact overtraining them...but I didn't notice any positive change yet...I'm pretty depressed and I'm starting to resign and take the things how they come. The first thread I started in AR was just referring to this problem of mine.
Finally, I suppose that I'm juicing only to see my arms grow, but this process is taking a lot of time bro.

CL

For some, it isn't as simple as saying 'do less'... 'or do more'.

It was 'easy' to say this to thread originator, namely because his normative values are fixed... i.e. he's a habitual trainer.

w/ relation to your particular case... me having no knowledge of you, I'd ask:

1. How long did you train your bis/tris w/ 9 sets before switching to 6 sets?

2. When do you train bis/tris? (i.e. on a day of their own? after chest? Back? Shoulders?)

3. How are your arm sessions located in relation to larger bodyparts? (before/after?)

4. How many days in a row do you train the large muscles of your torso?

5. Do you utilize negatives?

6. How is your shoulder/elbow placement? (i.e. Do you allow your deltoids to displace your bis/tris in arm work?)

7. Do you use a full ROM?

8. Do you use momentum on your lifts?

etc. etc.

The combination of factors, and how they interact, matters more than any individual factor (such as the number of sets) alone.

In some cases... It would be advisable to do more where less has failed.

In some cases... it may serve the trainee to prioritize the smaller bodypart over the larger one in a training rotation.

In some cases.. It may serve the trainee to institute mini-cycles within the larger training cycle...thereby facilitating a growth curve.

Growth and Development aren't linear.

Ergo, processes which facilitate such should not be either.

-CNS

[Narkissos]

For some, it isn't as simple as saying 'do less'... 'or do more'.

It was 'easy' to say this to thread originator, namely because his normative values are fixed... i.e. he's a habitual trainer.

w/ relation to your particular case... me having no knowledge of you, I'd ask:

1. How long did you train your bis/tris w/ 9 sets before switching to 6 sets?

2. When do you train bis/tris? (i.e. on a day of their own? after chest? Back? Shoulders?)

3. How are your arm sessions located in relation to larger bodyparts? (before/after?)

4. How many days in a row do you train the large muscles of your torso?

5. Do you utilize negatives?

6. How is your shoulder/elbow placement? (i.e. Do you allow your deltoids to displace your bis/tris in arm work?)

7. Do you use a full ROM?

8. Do you use momentum on your lifts?

etc. etc.

The combination of factors, and how they interact, matters more than any individual factor (such as the number of sets) alone.

In some cases... It would be advisable to do more where less has failed.

In some cases... it may serve the trainee to prioritize the smaller bodypart over the larger one in a training rotation.

In some cases.. It may serve the trainee to institute mini-cycles within the larger training cycle...thereby facilitating a growth curve.

Growth and Development aren't linear.

Ergo, processes which facilitate such should not be either.

-CNS

While we're on the topic of prioritizing, I should say outline the manner by which i attacked my lagging pecs using lower volume.

I worked with a powerlifter during this time.

He had a unique training style.

He always trained biceps before back..and triceps before chest.

This went against everything I'd ever heard w/ relation to training... as larger displaces smaller at the core of all routines.

..or so i thought.

He advised that i prioritize tris to boost the strength of this secondary support musculature... thus enabling me to boost the strength of my primary movers.

A round-about manner of saying: bigger tris = bigger bench.

However we keep hearing terms like 'fatigue' and 'pre-exhaust'... Ergo we assume that training tris first will cause a dip in pressing strength.

I was pleasantly surprised when this didn't happen.

Here was the concept:

Day 1:

Exercise 1: Very Close-grip bench press: 4 sets: 6-10 reps [1 warm-up; 3 worksets]

Exercise 2: Incline Dumbbell Press: 2-3 worksets: 2-4 reps


Day 4:

Exercise 1: Very Close-grip bench press: 4 sets: 6-10 reps [1 warm-up; 3 worksets]

Exercise 2: Flat Dumbbell Press: 2-3 worksets: 2-4 reps


My dumbbell Press weights went up from session to session.. as opposed to down.

I erred on the side of less sets...and less reps.

..and it benefitted.

I dropped negative work completely.

2 reps = 2 reps.. as opposed to 1 rep + 1 assisted rep [which took the set past failure]

Ergo I didn't dip too far into my recuperative ability.

I think this was key for the lagging bodypart such as this.

My tris grew..and my chest thickened noticeably.


Lesson of this story?

When faced with a problem where your solutions fall short... Drop what you think you know, and try something new.

-CNS

[ChuckLee]

For some, it isn't as simple as saying 'do less'... 'or do more'.

It was 'easy' to say this to thread originator, namely because his normative values are fixed... i.e. he's a habitual trainer.

w/ relation to your particular case... me having no knowledge of you, I'd ask:

1. How long did you train your bis/tris w/ 9 sets before switching to 6 sets?

2. When do you train bis/tris? (i.e. on a day of their own? after chest? Back? Shoulders?)

3. How are your arm sessions located in relation to larger bodyparts? (before/after?)

4. How many days in a row do you train the large muscles of your torso?

5. Do you utilize negatives?

6. How is your shoulder/elbow placement? (i.e. Do you allow your deltoids to displace your bis/tris in arm work?)

7. Do you use a full ROM?

8. Do you use momentum on your lifts?

etc. etc.

The combination of factors, and how they interact, matters more than any individual factor (such as the number of sets) alone.

In some cases... It would be advisable to do more where less has failed.

In some cases... it may serve the trainee to prioritize the smaller bodypart over the larger one in a training rotation.

In some cases.. It may serve the trainee to institute mini-cycles within the larger training cycle...thereby facilitating a growth curve.

Growth and Development aren't linear.

Ergo, processes which facilitate such should not be either.

-CNS

1. I've trained for years 3 exercises x 3 sets for each, then switched to 2x3 about 2 months ago

2. Actually I train bis and tris their own in the same day; I train them on mondays, since I'm starting a cutting diet and my carb load day would be sunday, so PB suggested me to train my lacking muscles the day after (I suppose because I'll have more glycogen stores after a carb load)

3. The first day of the week, the bigger muscles come after my arms training

4. My WO split is Mon:bis,tris - Tue:legs - Thu:back,back delts - Fry: pecs,front delts,abs

5. Actually I don't utilize negatives, I do short reps and supersets

6. I try to isolate as much as possible my arms when I work them

7. I try to use a full ROM to isolate lateral tris, brachials bis as well with different kind of exercises

8. If momentum is the complete move from relaxation to contraption, yes I use it.

Thanks a lot Nark, I really apreciate your help.

CL

[FREAK]

i cant see the pictures ahhhhhhhhh wtf?

[moregunsthanroses]

Me three..

I don't know if you posted your chest routine?

you really shouldn't get all defensive when people give their honest opinion.