Knowledgeable Member
Yesterday, despite the Bank of England, European Central bank and the US Federal Reserve pumping in a combined 280 billion dollars into the system, Congress refused to back the 700 billion dollar plan to "save" the current Economic Crisis.
It's sink or swim time now. Wonder what "miracle" currency is going to save the day
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/7644265.stm
Last edited by Flagg; 09-30-2008 at 10:20 AM.
Retired: AR-Hall of Famer
I dont know shit about economy so this is a stupid question. But why are those 700 billion so important, I mean its just around 5% of the GDP of the US. Its a big hefty ammount of money, but why would everything go to hell without it?
It also seems like a folish policy to save banks that behaved so god damn stupidly, let them burn and then they wont repeat the misstake.
Knowledgeable Member
Originally Posted by Kärnfysikern
I don't know much about economy either, I do know that the US has something like 10 times the GDP of the UK which really surprised me. When you consider that America is wasting nearly a trillion dollars a year on the Iraq war and borrowing, and just those two areas alone, I think that 700 Bill is only delaying the inevitable.
Knowledgeable Member
this is twice this year they have tried to stimulate the economy, first was our refund about 600 bucks, now this. but what is next?
I feel accomplished
The thinking is to take on some of the bad debt that was created so banks continue lending money. The US economy rolls on credit, and if banks stop lending it's a problem.
For example, I bought a new car not too long ago and my credit is not bad. I think my credit score is a 680 where anything above 720 is good. Had some late credit card payments back in college, that's about it. The interest rate I was quoted was 15%. The prime rate is somewhere in the 5's I think. I'm not gonna pay 15% interest, so I took the money out of stocks and bought it for cash. It's not an option for everyone though to pay cash for their car.
Then you have the problem of the housing bubble. Houses gained so much value in the last 15 years excluding the last 3 or so, they're worth like tripple or more what they were. Even if you can afford your house as it is, everyone is morgaged to the hills on them, and you need a buyer if you ever want to move, so loans need to be availiable. Banks take back a house and the housing market is in the tank, they're gonna sit on it and loose their shirt. Inventory is building and it could be a problem for all of America. The domino's could start to fall.
Businesses need loans all the time too, and that's a big peice of the puzzle.
I don't think anyone fully understands the ecomony, that's why it becomes such a mess. Will the economy shit the bed without the bailout? Who knows. Will the bailout have the intended effect? Who knows. But, they're willing to throw money at the problem and hope for the best.
VET
Now what I don't understand is that if our Prime Minister tried to pass a law (or a package like that) here in Canada and 2/3 of his own political party voted against it, it would be viewed as a vote of non-confidence and he'd have to step down as party leader (and PM) immediately.
Does it not work like that in the US?
Red
I feel accomplished
well, it's not really Bush's package...it's just the version of what will be passed that he likes the most. There will be few differences between the version that Bush likes and the final bailout plan. Basically everyone wants an amendment or sidenote in there that is important to them.
No, he never has to step down for being disagreed with. He just can't really get anything done on his own.
Ron Paul Nuthugger
First, the American people need to realise that this is not a "Rescue" plan to save the economy. It is a plan to
quickly pull the wool back over the eyes of the American people so that they can go on living above their means as
if the dollar and economy is stong. This system will fail, no ifs ands or buts about it. It WILL fail....the Elite
and the Fed are simply trying to make it last as long as possible.
It is as if the curtains fell just for a moment and the truth has been revealed and they are scrambling to pull the
curtain back up. They are now using the all to common scare tactics, they are saying how it will hurt 401K people,
savings accounts etc.
The truth is these will be hurt regardless when $700 BILLION is pumped into the economy out of thin air thus
bringing the dollar further down in value which also makes everyones 401K and Savings go down. Sure maybe the number
in your account doesn't go down but it sure will take more of those dollars to purchase the same goods.
I would rather we take the hit now and deal with the real issues (The Fed and our Monetary policies) now rather than
later and without $700 BILLION on top of god knows how much it is now. The world banking system is up in arms and
working together by scaring the people into accepting this "BAILOUT" or "Rescue" plan. The Central Bank of Europe
has loaned out 250 BILLION to the EU and has asked that America hurry and make the decision to stabalise the world
econmomy. lol
Now is the time to act as Americans and call your congressman and let them know you do not approve, make sure to let
them know you will not vote for anyone who accepts this plan. That is the reasoning why it failed to pass yesterday
because they are scared since it is election season.
It fails...then Bush using more scare tactics urges them to get back in and pass it claiming we are in dire need bla
bla bla.
America has lived beyond her means for decades, its time we come back down to reality. Why is it America uses 50% of
the worlds Oil supply while the rest of the world has to make due on the other 50%? Are we that goddamn special?
Shall we suffer the burden or our children or their children? I know many choose to ignore it and let the wool be
pulled over their eyes but a day will come and this system will crash..think about how hard it will be then?
***No source checks!!!***
Knowledgeable Member
very well spoken m.
Ron Paul Nuthugger
I really think this has shaken Americans to a point that they are finally realising something is wrong with this farce of a system. Nothing will wake the American people or anger them more than for them to suffer a decline in their standard of living and lack of finances.
This will absolutely affect living standards and America is slowly awakening to this reality. I only hope something is done before the curtain is pulled back up and the people are led to believe all is well again.
***No source checks!!!***
I feel accomplished
I don't think it's quite the house of cards you do Murilo. Goods are being produced, labor is being done, property is changing hands, our country has a solid infastructure. The years of oil were great and the stuff is starting to get expensive, but there are other soloutions. The bank's eagerness to lend was only part of the problem...how about the American public borrowing against the value of their house to buy Chinese crap at Wal-mart. I think the end is far from near.
Ron Paul Nuthugger
Don't take this wrong...but you obviously fail to look into it deeper and only look at it from the top layer. It is easy to research and come to reality and realise we have been horse****ed by the Fed and the Elite for decades.
I love how Bush and Wall Street can claim we have a "Free Market" without batting an eye. I took one Economics class in college and learned enough from that to realise this is not a Free Market.
America has anything but a solid infrastructure, to say and believe so is no different than digging your head in the sand and ignoring reality. The same people that have caused this problem are the same people on TV saying they know how to fix it. I certainly agree that they know how to "fix" the farce that is this economic problem. They created the problem...they know it is going to end and that it is unsustainable but they are also not afraid to push it further and further because in doing so they reap the rewards while the middle class is all but destroyed.
I could go...please go and read on the Federal Reserve and where it comes from, the ideas behind it, the illegal creation of a Central Bank, what does a Central Bank mean?
A very famous quote that speaks volumes is this
"The real menace of our Republic is the invisible government which like a giant octopus sprawls its slimy legs over our cities, states and nation. At the head is a small group of banking houses... This little coterie...run our government for their own selfish ends. It operates under cover of a self-created screen...seizes...our executive officers...legislative bodies...schools...
courts...newspapers and every agency created for the public protection.”
N.Y. Mayor, John Hylan
Then you have one of the Elite themselves speaking and saying
"I care not what puppet is placed on the throne of England to rule the Empire, ...The man that controls Britain's money supply controls the British Empire. And I control the money supply."
- Baron Nathan Mayer Rothschild
Also look into China and what affect they have on the American economy, then look into the Arab nations and their ties into the American economy. Once you do, be prepared to be very disturbed.
***No source checks!!!***
Ron Paul Nuthugger
Other uinfamous quotes...but one very powerful quote from President Woodrow Wilson shortly after signing the Federal Reserve Act said
"A great industrial nation is controlled by its system of credit. Our system of credit is privately concentrated. The growth of the nation, therefore, and all our activities are in the hands of a few men who, even if their action be honest and intended for the public interest, are necessarily concentrated upon the great undertakings in which their own money is involved and who necessarily, by very reason of their own limitations, chill and check and destroy genuine economic freedom."
- Woodrow Wilson"The Rothschilds, and that class of money-lenders of whom they are the representatives and agents - men who never think of lending a shilling to their next-door neighbors, for purposes of honest industry, unless upon the most ample security, and at the highest rate of interest - stand ready, at all times, to lend money in unlimited amounts to those robbers and murderers, who call themselves governments, to be expended in shooting down those who do not submit quietly to being robbed and enslaved."
- Lysander Spooner"The dirty little secret is that both houses of Congress are irrelevant. ... America's domestic policy is now being run by Alan Greenspan and the Federal Reserve, and America's foreign policy is now being run by the International Monetary Fund [IMF]. ...when the president decides to go to war, he no longer needs a declaration of war from Congress."
- Robert ReichFor the first time in its history, Western Civilization is in danger of being destroyed internally by a corrupt, criminal ruling cabal which is centered around the Rockefeller interests, which include elements from the Morgan, Brown, Rothschild, Du Pont, Harriman, Kuhn-Loeb, and other groupings as well. This junta took control of the political, financial, and cultural life of America in the first two decades of the twentieth century."
- Carroll Quigley
***No source checks!!!***
I feel accomplished
I know it's not a free market.
Not a solid infrastructure? Who has a better one? There need to be changes upgrades and maitaince, but the transportation, communications, energy, and information are there and available at a resonable price to run a solid economy.
I don't see an alternative to a centeral bank or federal reserve. I've never even heard of a viable alternative. Perhaps my head in the sand.
China and Arab nations draining us...yeah I'm not happy about it.
I'm not hearing soloutions from you, only fear...what do you want to do?
Last edited by Kratos; 09-30-2008 at 04:08 PM.
Knowledgeable Member
So many people are completely unaware, that even though America comprises of about 4% of the global population, they use FIFTY PERCENT of the total worlds oil. And when I mention how pathetically addicted the West and in particular America are to oil, im told im a liberal or some right wing shit and to research where plastic comes from. I wish people would do more research into where oil came from in the first place so they could learn it wont be around forever.
Knowledgeable Member
Not to derail the thread that I created, but why is it that "liberal" and "liberty" have become dirty words in todays so called, DEMOCRACY?
Knowledgeable Member
China and Arab nations are draining your country? Like they're leeches? Its YOUR country that is borrowing 3 billion dollars a day from Asian banks.
Ron Paul Nuthugger
Someone is doing their homework I see.
American Economy Collapsing
The Politics eZine - Economics
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Skyrocketing Inflation in the USA
By Charles Moffat - March 11th 2008.
Oil prices skyrocketed today, nearing $110 US per barrel while the US dollar slumped.
The highest point was $109.72/barrel, a new all time record, even when adjusted for inflation. Gasoline prices likewise are skyrocketing, and with them the cost of food and goods.
It is not so much that oil prices are going up however. It is actually the slumping American dollar which has dropped in value internationally by 18% in the last year against other major currencies.
The American dollar is becoming worthless, and unlike a normal recession the US economy is still growing in GDP. In 2007 the American Gross Domestic Product grew 2.2% to $13.8 trillion, but since the American dollar is worth 18% less than last year in reality the American economy actually took a huge hit. So when you think about it the US economy actually shrunk by roughly 16% in 2007 compared to the rest of the world.
But what happened in 2007 that could be so devastating to the US economy? The answer is a bit complicated.
The housing crisis and too much credit has created a credit crisis that undermines the actual value of American currency.
Imagine if someone pumped millions of dollars of counterfeit into the US economy, and then somehow the media found it. It would create economic confusion and and uproar. People wouldn't be able to trust cash. It would undermine the overall value of the American dollar and its value would plummet.
In this case however it isn't counterfeit (although technically speaking US currency is one of the easiest to counterfeit), it is simply too much credit. Americans have too many mortgages, too many credit cards and too much national debt. They rely on foreign imports from China and other nations and their own economy has become too service oriented and lacks manufacturing.
The result is that that the American dollar isn't actually worth much when you think about it. It is just paper after all. For decades its value has been boosted by strong demand overseas as banks used it as backup currency because it was stable and strong. In this era of the Bush Administration however, with George W. Bush asleep at the wheel, economic prosperity has been given a backseat and basically totally ignored while the White House focuses on international terrorism.
There was once a time when currency was usually backed up with actual substance such as gold in Fort Knox or a national treasury, but that era is long gone. Now a currency is valuable because the government and the markets say it is, and they allow the currencies to float on the international markets based on demand, but when a society bases most of its purchases on credit and isn't making enough to support those purchases the value of the dollar ends up plummeting.
Think of it like this: Someone buys 120 million widgets for $1 each in a single year and pays for it with credit. They pay for the interest and the next year they buy another 120 million widgets and buy it on credit also, and keep doing it every year. They pay the interest on the widgets but they never actually pay it off. After 5 years they've bought 600 million widgets but have bought it on credit and have never paid any of the balance off, paying only the interest. Eventually the bank says: "No. We're not giving you any more credit. You have no intention of ever paying us back in full."
Imagine if I bought your old TV, but instead of paying for it with gold or something of value I gave you an IOU instead. If I kept buying stuff with IOUs and never paid them off you would eventually say "Hey, these IOUs are worthless!"
Unlike the widget example above the IOUs don't gain interest. But what is the point of interest if the value of things keeps going up due to inflation? The price of grain, food, oil, gold, and many other basic commodities are all skyrocketing in value, much higher than the actual rate of interest.
Imagine you have $10,000 in the bank and the yearly compound interest rate is 5%. Over a year you would get $500 in interest. But imagine for a moment if the value of food, gasoline and all commodities doubled in price in one year. Your $10,500 isn't really worth the same as it used to be... it is now worth approx. $5,250 in terms of actual purchasing power.
And so this is the situation the USA is in right now. Commodity prices are skyrocketing, which means America's GDP is going up because prices are going up due to inflation. But if you adjust the GDP to make up for the loss of currency value you realize what has really happened. The USA is now in a recession and Ameircans just hasn't realize it because the GDP numbers still look up, but they haven't clued in that the GDP's value has actually gone down.
In the last year the American dollar has dropped in value by approx. 18% compared to the Canadian dollar and the Euro (and numerous other commodities). So even though the US GDP increased 2.2% in 2007 in the amount of US dollars, the actual value of that GDP has shrunk by about 16%.
Couple that with a mortgage and credit crisis and the United States is in for a wild ride in terms of economics.
Politics wise it should make for an interesting 2008 election campaign.
Wow...this was stated back in March 2008....
And people are really surprised this has happened?
Last edited by Panzerfaust; 09-30-2008 at 09:04 PM.
***No source checks!!!***
Ron Paul Nuthugger
You 401K and Savings people who are worried about your money and have fallen for the scare tactics from Bush and the Media...take special notice to this little piece of information below
"Imagine you have $10,000 in the bank and the yearly compound interest rate is 5%. Over a year you would get $500 in interest. But imagine for a moment if the value of food, gasoline and all commodities doubled in price in one year. Your $10,500 isn't really worth the same as it used to be... it is now worth approx. $5,250 in terms of actual purchasing power."
This is exactly what is happening to the US Dollar as we speak and pumping $700 BILLION dollars out of thin air into the economy will do the same to your coveted 401K and Savings account. WE lose regardless...what good is your 401K with say $150,000.00 in it when years down the road that same $150,000.00 is worth considerably less due to its purchasing power? You are affected regardless.
There is a reason why many people are buying Gold right now...because it has value unlike this Fiat currency that you are told has value. The same people who laugh at the assumption of returning to the Gold standard are the ones buying up Gold now...hahaha
Some Investors Taking Shelter By Buying Gold: As Value Rises, People Avoid Turmoil in Market With the Precious Metal
Thursday, September 25, 2008 3:59 AM
Symbols: AIG, BAC, LEH, MER
(Source: Richmond Times-Dispatch)By Emily C. Dooley, Richmond Times-Dispatch, Va.
Sep. 25--Paul Chandler sold $12,000 worth of coins to one person this week.
His customer was looking for a safe place to invest his money.
"We're selling a lot of gold," said Chandler, co-owner of Mechanicsville Gold-N-Coin. "People seem to be investing more in silver and gold than they are in the stock market. It's just regular people investing their money."
With bankruptcies, bailouts and an unpredictable stock market, gold coins and bullion are becoming the go-to commodity for people looking to invest, or to unload old jewelry in hopes of cashing in.
On Sept. 11, the price of a pure ounce of gold was about $750. Yesterday, the precious metal closed at $881.90 per ounce.
During those nearly two weeks, Lehman Brothers filed for bankruptcy, Bank of America bought struggling Merrill Lynch and the federal government granted an $85 billion takeover loan to insurer American International Group Inc.
Now, as politicians and policy makers wrangle over the fate of a $700 billion plan to fix a shell-shocked financial sector, the eventual outcome is unknown.
"It really has investors spooked, and they're looking for safety," said David Beahm, vice president of economic research for Blanchard and Co. Inc., a New Orleans brokerage house that specializes in precious metals.
People are buying gold, he said, because they don't know what's going to happen next. While gold provides diversity and stability, it is also means to grow wealth, he said.
"Throughout history, people have turned to gold for safe haven," Beahm said. "Gold will never, ever, ever go to zero."
Gold prices hovered around the $400 mark for much of the 1980s and'90s. After falling below $300 in 2000, prices began rising. Gold peaked at more than $1,000 earlier this year, but that's not the most gold has cost. If you adjust for inflation, the price of an ounce would have to hit about $2,300, Beahm said.
Relatively flat mining production combined with steady demand have pushed the price up, said Peter Grandich, editor of the Grandich Letter, which covers the metals and mining markets.
To some, Grandich said, gold is the only pure form of money, and people fall back on that during rocky times. "They say in the worst of times people won't accept paper money, but they'll accept gold," he said. "They say it's the ultimate money."
Demand at the U.S. Mint has been strong. So far this month, the mint has sold 75,500 1-ounce gold American Eagle coins. During the same month last year, the mint sold 14,500 of the coins, according to data from the U.S. Mint.
In August, sales of the American Eagle 1-ounce gold coin were suspended for about a week because of supply problems. As of last night, the mint was still selling the American Eagle coins to preferred suppliers.
"There's high demand across the market for gold," spokesman Michael White said.
While some people are buying gold coins and bullion, others are cashing in on the high prices. "Turn gold into cash" signs can be seen at pawn shops across the region.
The same thing happened when times turned rough in the late 1970s, said Kim Peters, who works at Dixie Trading Co. on Williamsburg Road in Henrico County.
People can get loans for their gold or sell it at the pawn shop. If the gold is high quality, he'll put it on display. If not, the jewelry is treated as scrap and shipped to a refiner to melt it down.
Five to 10 people a day are coming in to sell their gold, Peters said. A lot of times, it's to cover daily expenses.
Two weeks ago, two teachers came in to unload some yellow gold pieces -- a few rings, some bracelets and broken chains, he said. Lots of times, people trade their broken or unused jewelry in for cash to buy gas or groceries.
"A lot of people are selling [gold] because it's high and they're getting a lot more than what they could sell it at before," said Hank Klein at S. Bachrach Co. Inc. on East Broad Street in Richmond. Contact Emily C. Dooley at (804) 649-6016 or [email protected]
Wow..I guess the Gold standard lives afterall huh? So people use paper money that is artificially given value and reject the idea of the Gold Standard....the Fiat currency goes to shit and becomes worthless....people get scared and immediately turn to Gold? Talk about ****ing irony people...I mean LOL!
Last edited by Panzerfaust; 09-30-2008 at 09:16 PM.
***No source checks!!!***
I feel accomplished
My bad on the wording, we are demanding their oil, goods, and money. America is pouring the money down the sink. Transfering our wealth to other nations. We owe 33k a peice, ever borrow money though and plan on not paying the person back.
Anabolic Member
lol theres no point Kratos their minds are not gonna be changed....ive done my best not to respond to these threads anymore...like he said, he took one economics class in college.... and im still waiting for the youtube conspiracy video to surface here
I feel accomplished
Lmao at the gold standard.
http://meganmcardle.theatlantic.com/...thar_stand.php
I feel accomplished
Go try living in some shit-hole that doesn't consume a lot of oil, then tell me you don't like it here better. No, it won't be around forever...not even a whole lot longer at reasonable prices. It was what we had at the time, it worked great and was cheap. Now as price rises we need to get off it. Drinking up the worlds oil isn't the biggest problem, someone was gonna use it. The time for change is upon us and we need leadership with a vision for our energy future.
Senior Member
where this 50% from?
Senior Member
GOLD???? Yeah im LOLing too.
Knowledgeable Member
I live in the UK, but we are currently ranked something like 33 out of 35 countries that are supposed to be greener, so we're no angels either. What I was trying to state is that we were greedy and rather than sipping that oil we chugged it back. 400 million years of oil gone in 150 years. It's a joke. I don't even want to talk about how bad oil is for the environment, you have to look at it from an economic point of view as well. I agree with you that the time for change is now, we need to look at Nuclear power, hydropower, solar power and the technologies of the 21st century.
Knowledgeable Member
I've read that in a newspaper or journal somewhere, bare with me and iL dig out the article.
Senior Member
I was asking because i have heard and read that it is between 23-25%,which is still very high.
Senior Member
I agree with you that the time for change is now, we need to look at Nuclear power, hydropower, solar power and the technologies of the 21st century.
I think we all or at least many of us can agree on this.
Senior Member
I feel the same way. Zeitgeist ftw!
The US is taking advantage of them. US borrows money at 3-4% and then creates inflation by the fed at about 3%. How much are those Asian banks really making. Hell, I wish I could trick people into that.
All these bright people don't know how great it is here in the US. If the fed is so horrible why did Japan, EU and UK mirror it.
Exactly.
Back on topic. The plan isn't horrible. If I could borrow money at 3-4%, I would buy my neighbors $300k mortgage for $100k. This is all the plan really is, in its basic form.
Warren Buffet said that he would be willing to partner with the government, with his own money on this deal. He said he would be willing to go in 1% with them. The government could make quite a bit of money on this, however the government has a poor history of running things. Welcome to socialism!
This plan won't fix everything.
Senior Member
Why has this bill been brought back up after being shot down? Their going to re-vote on it Friday wtf, did I miss something...
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
Posting Permissions
Reply With Quote
