test taparing for PCT

[adimenia]

hey guys i have just been familiarized with
test tapering for PCT its a totally different approach then what is acceptable and i would like to here your views about it it basically goes like this

after you finish a cycle you have a waiting period of 4-6 weeks depending on the ester you are using 4 for test e for example and 6 if using deca for instance after that you have a tapering period of 4 weeks which take test e in the following amounts

week 1-6

mg/ week: 80mg / 60mg/ 50mg/ 40mg/ 30 mg/ 20mg.

Start your Serm (nolva or clomid) at the begining of the taper if you choose to do so.

i beg forgiveness for any inaccuracies i may have as i just got into that system

but basically with that amount of test there is no negative feedback to hpta and ur body will be able to recover its natural production

what do you guys think about it? did any of you had any experience with test tapering?

[JiGGaMaN]

I know for sure it wont work @ 80mg/wk. Im not sure where it will work. I went from test prop to androgel (5mg/day) and sure enough balls came back after a few weeks. I dont know for sure what was going on though.

[Charger527]

never tried it dought it will do any good because it will still surpress your natural test.

[adimenia]

that's the the thing i saw research that shows than an amount under 100mg a week does not supers s HPTA

[Kale]

I presume there is an amount of Test that the body considers homeostasis. If there is Androgynous Test in the body but the amount is not enough to bring the body to homeostasis then the bodies natural test production will kick in to make up the difference.

[Charger527]

so would you benniffit from it, (im in week two pct now and have heaps of prop lol)

[Kale]

so would you benniffit from it, (im in week two pct now and have heaps of prop lol)

No idea, only way to know is to try it

[Charger527]

bit late now, ill give it a go next time maybe, going to look into it more.

[uter87]

so what u start ur nolvadex 14 days after ur last test e cycle, and say u were doing 12 weeks at 500mg/w 1-12, then u go 13 - 80mg, 14 - 60mg, 15 - 40mg - 16 20mg? and start nolva at week 14? i want some more info on this cos i wouldnt mind trying it as i dont have any hcg yet and im upto week 9 of 12 at 500mg/w test e

[adimenia]

well yeah from i gather on this what you do is after your last shot of test e you enter a waiting period of 4 weeks (during this time your body clears up from the test injected)
then you start the taper period 80/60/40/20 and thats it you can also start your serms if you chose to use any like 40/20/20 nolva one week after the tapering starts

all the people who tried this system swears by it and they say they will never do the conventional PCT protocol from what i can see it makes sense with or without the "science" behind it

[uter87]

waiting for 4 weeks with no nolva? would it be better to start the nolvadex 2 weeks after injection and then hit the test at the same time? surely u used nolva for 4 weeks and the 20mg of test will still be there afterwards but u couldnt get many sides from 20-40 of test still in the system?

[adimenia]

nolva will not help you while your waiting as you still have high level of hormone circulating in your blood during the waiting period you should use 100mg a week of test and after that start your tapering phase its during this phase you can use nolva is you choose tho its not a must as there isnt any risk for side effects with that low amount of test

you can also use mast and test in 1:1 ratio and if you do that there is no need for nolva as mast will act as an anti e and being a DHT will keep libido up

[marcus300]

The HPTA is super sensitive and there are studies out there what show that even ONE injection of 100mgs of prop will cause alomost complete suprresion of your endrgenous testosterone by day 3 and will last up to around day 8, another study also used deca which was more or less double the amount of days for baseline Test to even try and get back to normal from one injection, remember this was from one injection of only 100mgs not even a cycle of high amounts or trying to recover from a shutdown.

If you carry on administrating Test the HPTA will not recover so the aid of using pct compounds while tapering the dose at the end will do nothing what so ever to your HPTA and it will only start to recover when Test or other compounds have totally stopped and cleared the blood.

Now, were ive had excellent results with tapering is from user's who suffer from withdrawal of Test, some build up great tolerance and get use to the feeling and suffer major problems from just dropping the weekly amount of test to zero and for these people tapering the amount can be of great advantage at reducing these sides or completely stopping them, but PCT shouldn't start until the clearance of the drugs have been completed by the body, of course you can overlap these pct drugs but the pct will have to be extended to compensate the overlap, kind of sounds like a mental thing for some user's but ive seen a few who use tapering at the end of a cycle to help with sides with excellent results, suppose to get a proper account of this protocol is to get bloodwork done before, during and at the end of this tapering procedure.

[adimenia]

The HPTA is super sensitive and there are studies out there what show that even ONE injection of 100mgs of prop will cause alomost complete suprresion of your endrgenous testosterone by day 3 and will last up to around day 8, another study also used deca which was more or less double the amount of days for baseline Test to even try and get back to normal from one injection, remember this was from one injection of only 100mgs not even a cycle of high amounts or trying to recover from a shutdown.

If you carry on administrating Test the HPTA will not recover so the aid of using pct compounds while tapering the dose at the end will do nothing what so ever to your HPTA and it will only start to recover when Test or other compounds have totally stopped and cleared the blood.

Now, were ive had excellent results with tapering is from user's who suffer from withdrawal of Test, some build up great tolerance and get use to the feeling and suffer major problems from just dropping the weekly amount of test to zero and for these people tapering the amount can be of great advantage at reducing these sides or completely stopping them, but PCT shouldn't start until the clearance of the drugs have been completed by the body, of course you can overlap these pct drugs but the pct will have to be extended to compensate the overlap, kind of sounds like a mental thing for some user's but ive seen a few who use tapering at the end of a cycle to help with sides with excellent results, suppose to get a proper account of this protocol is to get bloodwork done before, during and at the end of this tapering procedure.

ive seen studies that show the exact opposite.
and real world experience is definitely not complaint with your statements
ive heard tons of comments that traditional PCT did not work and that people were feeling crap and not being able to keep their gains and when trying PCT this way they felt wonderful and kept almost all their gains are you telling me that all of them are wrong ? can you refer me to some of those studies i would very much like to read them

but im most certainly agree with you last statement that the best way to know is to have blood work before during and after tapering and look at the results

[marcus300]

ive seen studies that show the exact opposite.
and real world experience is definitely not complaint with your statements
ive heard tons of comments that traditional PCT did not work and that people were feeling crap and not being able to keep their gains and when trying PCT this way they felt wonderful and kept almost all their gains are you telling me that all of them are wrong ? can you refer me to some of those studies i would very much like to read them

but im most certainly agree with you last statement that the best way to know is to have blood work before during and after tapering and look at the results

If tapering works for you and people you know thats fine, I also advice tapering if its needed for the slight few who suffer from withdrawal of test and the symptoms they suffer from, in some it works with great effects. Ive always been a great researcher in this department with many protocols with shutdown and suppression and even had good blood work back from the good old dbol bridge.

But like anything in this game when we introduce chemicals into the body we all react differently, if you research about the HPTA and have a good understanding of how it works,shuts down and recovers you will know that coming OUT of a shutdown to try and recover using Test will only delay things, many things would come into play example age but ive seen studies showing that 100mg per week of test will still make your HPTA shutdown and not recover, I will try and find these studies for you to read but like many studies with every one there is a contradicting one which follows.

It impossible to say one way or the other except for people to try it and get blood work done to back up recovery but lets be serious here tapering was the fashion in the 80's so i am sure world wide experiences as set up the best pct procotol's to date otherwise it would still be the fashion. If it works use it but get Bloodwork to see if your really recovering or your just piggyback riding.

[adimenia]

If tapering works for you and people you know thats fine, I also advice tapering if its needed for the slight few who suffer from withdrawal of test and the symptoms they suffer from, in some it works with great effects. Ive always been a great researcher in this department with many protocols with shutdown and suppression and even had good blood work back from the good old dbol bridge.

But like anything in this game when we introduce chemicals into the body we all react differently, if you research about the HPTA and have a good understanding of how it works,shuts down and recovers you will know that coming OUT of a shutdown to try and recover using Test will only delay things, many things would come into play example age but ive seen studies showing that 100mg per week of test will still make your HPTA shutdown and not recover, I will try and find these studies for you to read but like many studies with every one there is a contradicting one which follows.

It impossible to say one way or the other except for people to try it and get blood work done to back up recovery but lets be serious here tapering was the fashion in the 80's so i am sure world wide experiences as set up the best pct procotol's to date otherwise it would still be the fashion. If it works use it but get Bloodwork to see if your really recovering or your just piggyback riding.

i agree in the end it all comes down to personal experience and how things work for you i guess like most things you will find people who are pro and people who are cons i just brought up this issue as not a lot of people mention or know about it when talking about PCT and i always like to find more ways then one to do stuff

[bladerunner9]

The HPTA is super sensitive and there are studies out there what show that even ONE injection of 100mgs of prop will cause alomost complete suprresion of your endrgenous testosterone by day 3 and will last up to around day 8, another study also used deca which was more or less double the amount of days for baseline Test to even try and get back to normal from one injection, remember this was from one injection of only 100mgs not even a cycle of high amounts or trying to recover from a shutdown.

If you carry on administrating Test the HPTA will not recover so the aid of using pct compounds while tapering the dose at the end will do nothing what so ever to your HPTA and it will only start to recover when Test or other compounds have totally stopped and cleared the blood.

Now, were ive had excellent results with tapering is from user's who suffer from withdrawal of Test, some build up great tolerance and get use to the feeling and suffer major problems from just dropping the weekly amount of test to zero and for these people tapering the amount can be of great advantage at reducing these sides or completely stopping them, but PCT shouldn't start until the clearance of the drugs have been completed by the body, of course you can overlap these pct drugs but the pct will have to be extended to compensate the overlap, kind of sounds like a mental thing for some user's but ive seen a few who use tapering at the end of a cycle to help with sides with excellent results, suppose to get a proper account of this protocol is to get bloodwork done before, during and at the end of this tapering procedure.

With due respect i am not Hijacking the thread.

Hey Marcus i have a question here (The one in bold )

I didn't get with what does it meean ?
Does it mean we should start PCT after 3 months after completing Test only cycle then ?

[adimenia]

let me try and answer that

what it means is that there is no point in doing PCT while drugs are still in the system the point of pct is to bring the body back to normal and thats not gonna happen while the drugs are sill high in the system and the body will only start to do that when test levels are low enough and thats where tapering comes in its keeping levels low enough for the body to start recovering but not completely low that estrogen becomes an issue

[bladerunner9]

let me try and answer that

what it means is that there is no point in doing PCT while drugs are still in the system the point of pct is to bring the body back to normal and thats not gonna happen while the drugs are sill high in the system and the body will only start to do that when test levels are low enough and thats where tapering comes in its keeping levels low enough for the body to start recovering but not completely low that estrogen becomes an issue

Thanks Sherlock !!!!

You are saying the same in other words.

Read my question in the above post.
I meant to ask that why then we usually or everybody kind of doing it after 2 weeks of last shot ? Shouldn't it be to say wait for atleast two month and then start the PCT ?

[adimenia]

im the Sherlock that's why Ive posted this PCT alternative its exactly my point PCT protocol in practice today is by far not effective to restoring HPTA function
you dont suppose to start PCT until ALL drugs are out of the system the problem is that if youd wait that long and try to follow conventional PCT protocol your in high risk of E side effects

[Immortal Soldier]

Thanks Sherlock !!!!

You are saying the same in other words.

Read my question in the above post.
I meant to ask that why then we usually or everybody kind of doing it after 2 weeks of last shot ? Shouldn't it be to say wait for atleast two month and then start the PCT ?

Because that's when the test levels start falling (from its very high levels) and will continue to fall because the body is not getting injected with test anymore (or any other compound for that matter). So that is the widely accepted time frame to start the PCT.

If you wait two months then start your PCT you will most likely lose the majority of your gains, the PCT is just to "kick start" your body to produce test. That doesn't mean in 4 weeks of doing your PCT your test levels will be back to what they were pre-cycle levels. No, it takes time for the body to reach the level it was before. Hence why you give your body that "break" so it can go back to pre-cycle levels.

I think you read misinterpreted what marcus said.

[adimenia]

and thats where the waiting+tapering phases come in to play to let your body recover and produce its own test again without all the crap of SERMS (in high doses that is)

for example:

cycle done

waiting period 6 weeks during this time you inject 100mg test e a week (research says this amount does not shut down HPTA) after those 6 weeks you start tapering for another 6 weeks (this is the time you also start your SERMS if you choose) until you you reach 0 mg of test your body should be recovered by this time

for example
Week 1 - 100mg Test E
Week 2 - 100mg Test E
week 3 - 100mg Test E
week 4 - 100mg Test E
week 5 - 100mg Test E
week 6 - 100mg Test E
start taparing
Week 1 - 80mg Test E
Week 2 - 60mg Test E
Week 3 - 50mg Test E & 40mg/Nolva/Day
Week 4 -40mg Test E & 30mg/Nolva/Day
Week 5 - 30mg/Nolva/Day
Week 6 - 20mg/Nolva/Day

thats it your body is recovered

[Immortal Soldier]

and thats where the waiting+tapering phases come in to play to let your body recover and produce its own test again without all the crap of SERMS (in high doses that is)

for example:

cycle done

waiting period 6 weeks during this time you inject 100mg test e a week (research says this amount does not shut down HPTA) after those 6 weeks you start tapering for another 6 weeks (this is the time you also start your SERMS if you choose) until you you reach 0 mg of test your body should be recovered by this time

for example
Week 1 - 100mg Test E
Week 2 - 100mg Test E
week 3 - 100mg Test E
week 4 - 100mg Test E
week 5 - 100mg Test E
week 6 - 100mg Test E
start taparing
Week 1 - 80mg Test E
Week 2 - 60mg Test E
Week 3 - 50mg Test E & 40mg/Nolva/Day
Week 4 -40mg Test E & 30mg/Nolva/Day
Week 5 - 30mg/Nolva/Day
Week 6 - 20mg/Nolva/Day

thats it your body is recovered

100mg is half of the dosage that doctors prescribe for hrt.

No offense, but all the crap "of Serms"? What are you talking about?

People who take SERMS at high doses that is their call, obiviously, it has been well documented by a number of users on this board and others that lower doses gets you the same benefits of higher dosage.

No, doing the tapering method to me seems like a good way to waste test.

I mean your on synthetic test, I believe you should get off and let the SERMS do their job instead of prolonging the use of test.


But to each his own, if the method works for you than great.

[adimenia]

100mg is half of the dosage that doctors prescribe for hrt.

No offense, but all the crap "of Serms"? What are you talking about?

People who take SERMS at high doses that is their call, obiviously, it has been well documented by a number of users on this board and others that lower doses gets you the same benefits of higher dosage.

No, doing the tapering method to me seems like a good way to waste test.

I mean your on synthetic test, I believe you should get off and let the SERMS do their job instead of prolonging the use of test.


But to each his own, if the method works for you than great.

exactly it works for me and lots of other folks out there and what is matter if its synthetic or not?? test is test as log as the body "sees" it in normal range it will start to recover id rather to let the body recover by itself then to load up on stuff like nolva clomid and all this crap i mean how good can medicine who is being used to treat women with breast cancer be!

here read this it might make you see things in a different light

References
Armory, J., Anawalt, B., Bremner, W., Matsumoto, A., (2001) Daily Testosterone and Gonadotropin Levels are Simmilar in Azoospermic and Nonazoospermic Normal Men Administered Weekly Testosterone: Implications for Male Contraceptive Development. Journal of Andrology, 22(6). 1053-1060

Matsumoto, A., (1990) Effects of chronic Testosterone Administration in Normal Men: Safety and Efficacy of High Dosage Testosterone and Parallel Dose-Dependant Suppression of Luteinizing Hormone, Follicle Stimulating Hormone, and Sperm Production*. Journal of Clinical Endocrinology and Metabolism, 70(1). 282-287

Naftolin, F., Judd, H., Yen, S., (1973) Pulsatile Patterns of Gonadotropins and Testosterone in Man: The Effects of Clomiphene With and Without Testosterone. Journal of Clincal Endocrinology and Metabolism, (36)1. 285-

Winters, S., Janick, J., Loriaux, L., Sherrins, J., (1979) Studies of Sex Steroids in the Feedback Control of Gonadotropin Concentrations in Men. II. Use of Estrogen Antagonist Clomiphene Citrate*. Journal of Clinical Endocrinology and Metabolism, 48(1). 222-234


but yeah i agree it works for me and that what counts

[Charger527]

Im going to give it a try it after a short cycle(8 weeks) i have coming up, and see how it goes,

but ill still run provion and nolva in pct and prob clomid, just run the clomid at a lower dose, 100mg is too much.

[uter87]

so this would be a good idea to try if u didnt have hcg for pct?

[ottomaddox]

Do you have bloodwork taken pre and post cycle?

exactly it works for me and lots of other folks out there and what is matter if its synthetic or not?? test is test as log as the body "sees" it in normal range it will start to recover id rather to let the body recover by itself then to load up on stuff like nolva clomid and all this crap i mean how good can medicine who is being used to treat women with breast cancer be!

here read this it might make you see things in a different light


but yeah i agree it works for me and that what counts

[adimenia]

yeah thats always a good idea.
guys id like to thank you for this wonderful debate and i just like to say i appreciate your thoughts and opinions on this subject

[bladerunner9]

Because that's when the test levels start falling (from its very high levels) and will continue to fall because the body is not getting injected with test anymore (or any other compound for that matter). So that is the widely accepted time frame to start the PCT.

If you wait two months then start your PCT you will most likely lose the majority of your gains, the PCT is just to "kick start" your body to produce test. That doesn't mean in 4 weeks of doing your PCT your test levels will be back to what they were pre-cycle levels. No, it takes time for the body to reach the level it was before. Hence why you give your body that "break" so it can go back to pre-cycle levels.

I think you read misinterpreted what marcus said.

Good. Now that clears my doubt, but i didn't misinterpreted Marcus, i was asking a question which you replied.