Lifting for fast twitch muscle fibers.

[garythompson]

Ive always been strong for my size but never really been as big as I want to be. When i heard that developing your fast twitch muscle fibers makes you muscles bigger, i wanted to learn how to work those. So my question is what kind of exercises should I do to develope those fibers in particular?

[WOLFCRAFT]

I don't think it's which exercises as much as it is the way you lift.
From what I understand to hit fast twitch muscle fibers you push the weight up, well, fast. Quick explosive movements.
Someone might be able to add to this.

[MuscleScience]

Ive always been strong for my size but never really been as big as I want to be. When i heard that developing your fast twitch muscle fibers makes you muscles bigger, i wanted to learn how to work those. So my question is what kind of exercises should I do to develope those fibers in particular?

Go heavy or go home!!!

[FireGuy]

Its about rep range not speed in which you move the weight. Fast (white fibers) are stimulated more in the low and mid rep range while slow (red fibers) are stimulated in the very high rep ranges.

[garythompson]

so just lift heavy?

[MuscleScience]

so just lift heavy?

Yep....

[Phate]

so just lift heavy?

not just heavy, very heavy, 1-3 rep range and i would incorporate negatives, forced failure, stop sets and progressive overloads

[MuscleScience]

The eccentric phase of contraction is not associated with hypertrophy. Have I not taught you anything Phate???

[GymHero]

Training heavy like this, how long is it ok to train like this for? Does it matter if everytime you train you do your max for about 4-7 reps? Or should you only do it for a certain period?

[Phate]

The eccentric phase of contraction is not associated with hypertrophy. Have I not taught you anything Phate???

LMAO, my bad sensei, i wasn't referring to negatives for the benefit of hypertrophy, rather as i figured he wanted to train for strength, hence the question on incorporating slow twitch rather then just the normal, "how do i train for mass"

[MuscleScience]

Training heavy like this, how long is it ok to train like this for? Does it matter if everytime you train you do your max for about 4-7 reps? Or should you only do it for a certain period?

No you want to switch it up in your workouts. How you do that is a matter of opinion really, there are a billion different workouts out there.

When i train people I play it by ear. What I mean is I tell them to listen to their body and if they feel extra sore, or tired or weak i have them do a light week of training every now and then.

[GymHero]

No you want to switch it up in your workouts. How you do that is a matter of opinion really, there are a billion different workouts out there.

When i train people I play it by ear. What I mean is I tell them to listen to their body and if they feel extra sore, or tired or weak i have them do a light week of training every now and then.

Good advise

[garythompson]

So for arms, what kind rep numbers and workouts am I looking at?

[garythompson]

i usually do 7-8 sets of biceps and triceps. But i think i've tried super heavy sets before and its hard to get tired...

[garythompson]

[QUOTE=Phate;4490164]LMAO, my bad sensei, i wasn't referring to negatives for the benefit of hypertrophy, QUOTE]

yes hypertrophy. that's what I want right?

[Phate]

[QUOTE=garythompson;4490451]

LMAO, my bad sensei, i wasn't referring to negatives for the benefit of hypertrophy, QUOTE]

yes hypertrophy. that's what I want right?

why are you asking us?

[FireGuy]

The eccentric phase of contraction is not associated with hypertrophy. Have I not taught you anything Phate???

I cant believe one of the brightest minds on these forums just made that statement. Not only is it an absolute oxymoron (there is no eccentric phase in contraction).

[FireGuy]

There is also much evidence suggesting the negative or eccentric portion of the movement is mroe condusive to hypertrophy than the positive or concentric portion of the movement. Yes, it is a copy and paste but good reading nonetheless,

What’s the Difference between Concentric and Eccentric Training?

Concentric training is most easily thought of as the muscle contraction when a weight is lifted. The muscle fibers shorten while contracting to lift the load as in the upward movement of a bicep curl.

An eccentric muscle action is when the muscle fibers lengthen to lower a load, as in the downward movement of a bicep curl. While the fibers are lengthening, they’re also contracting to return the weight to the start position in a controlled manner. Eccentric muscle actions are common in strength training with free weights, body weight exercise, and non-hydraulic exercise machines.

Most activities of daily life contain both types of muscle actions. As an example, walking up the stairs works the quadriceps concentrically while walking down the stairs works the muscle eccentrically. Likewise, picking up a child or laundry basket are total-body concentric actions while lowering the child or laundry basket are eccentric movements.

Since we use the muscles in our bodies in both ways in every day life, we should also use both types of actions in strength-training programs.

According to the American College of Sports Medicine (ACSM) Position Stand On Resistance Training Progression published in 2002, muscle strength results from the proper activation of specific muscle fibers, which are recruited in response to the demands of the resistance-training program, and strength-training protocols should include both concentric and eccentric muscle actions.

What are the Benefits of Combined Concentric and Eccentric Training?

In 1990, Colliander and Tesch compared the effectiveness of training the quadriceps using either a concentric- only or concentric and eccentric program. Their results showed that the group that trained using both concentric and eccentric muscle actions achieved greater improvements in strength and strength-related tasks. The concentric and eccentric group outperformed the concentric-only group in vertical jump and three-repetition maximum half squat.

Concerned about the loss of muscle mass during space flight, a 2003 study by Hilliard-Robertson et.al. also compared combined action training to concentric-only training. Again, greater strength gains were found in the groups training with the combination of eccentric and concentric training.

A group of older adults were tested for their ability to perform activities of daily life (rising from a chair, stair climbing and descending, etc.). In the study, one group trained with concentric-only exercise while the other trained with eccentric and concentric exercise. The group that trained with the combined protocol showed greater improvements in function. Gur et al. (2002)

Bird et. al. (2005) recommend combined concentric and eccentric training using 1–3 sets and 15–20 repetitions to build muscular endurance. A study conducted by Marx JO et.al. (2001) compared the effects of different training volumes in women. They concluded that training programs with multiple sets and higher repetition produced greater gains in muscle endurance than lower volume programs.

What are the Benefits of Eccentric Training?

In addition to looking at the benefits of concentric and eccentric combined training programs, researchers have also studied the benefits of training eccentric muscle actions only compared to concentric muscle actions only. The results have shown that there are many benefits to training eccentric muscle actions.

These benefits include:

Greater increases in Strength

When eccentric only training has been compared to concentric only training, several researchers have discovered that eccentric training yields greater increases in strength than concentric.

One study looked at 6 weeks of eccentric vs. concentric training in women. Hortobagyi et.al. (1996). After the training, the concentric group improved strength 36% while the eccentric group had a 42% increase. This difference was significant (P<.05). The authors concluded that training eccentrically yielded greater strength adaptations faster than concentric training in women.

The superiority of eccentric training versus concentric training for developing strength has also been reported by Farthing and Chilibeck (2003), LaStayo et.al. (2003), Seger, et.al. (1998), and Hortobagyi et.al. (1997).

Greater muscle hypertrophy

It is well accepted that the stimulus for muscle growth is microtrauma to the muscle following exercise. The process of lengthening during a contraction increases the amount of microtrauma experienced by the muscle. In turn, this stimulates the muscle to rebuild and add and increase muscle fiber size in order to handle the load. While concentric training can induce some microtrauma, over the same period of time, eccentric training is more effective for promoting muscle growth.

Numerous studies have reported that eccentric training is superior to concentric training for inducing muscle hypertrophy. Farthing JP and Chilibeck PD (2003), Higbie (1996) and LaStayo et.al. (2003)

References

American College of Sports Medicine Position Stand on Progression Models in Resistance Training for Healthy Adults.(2002) Med Sci Sports Exer.34(2):364-380.

Bird, SP, Tarpenning, KM, & Marino FE. (2005) Designing resistance training programmes to enhance muscular fitness: a review of the acute programme variables. Sports Med , 35(10):841-51

Colliander EB and Tesch PA (1990) Effects of eccentric and concentric muscle actions in resistance training. Acta Physiol Scand, 140 (1):31-9.

Gur, H, Cakin, N, Akova, B, Okay, E, Kucukoglu,S. (2002) Concentric versus combined concentric-eccentric isokinetic training: effects on functional capacity and symptoms in patients with osteoarthrosis of the knee. Arch Phys Med Rehabil. 83(3): 308-16.

Hilliard-Robertson PC, Schneider SM, Bishop SL, and Guilliams ME (2003) Strength gains following different combined concentric and eccentric exercise regiems. Avait Space Environ Med. 74(4):342-7.

Hortobagyi T, Barrier J, Beard D, Braspennincx J, Koens P, Devita P, Dempsey L, and Lambert J (1996) Greater initial adaptations to submaximal muscle lengthening than maximal shortening. J Appl Physiol. 81(4):1677-82.

Farthing JP and Chilibeck PD (2003) The effect of eccentric training at different velocities on muscle hypertrophy. Eur J Appl Physiol. 89(6):570-7.

[MuscleScience]

I cant believe one of the brightest minds on these forums just made that statement. Not only is it an absolute oxymoron (there is no eccentric phase in contraction).

That is not what I said.

There is also much evidence suggesting the negative or eccentric portion of the movement is mroe condusive to hypertrophy than the positive or concentric portion of the movement. Yes, it is a copy and paste but good reading nonetheless,

What’s the Difference between Concentric and Eccentric Training?

Concentric training is most easily thought of as the muscle contraction when a weight is lifted. The muscle fibers shorten while contracting to lift the load as in the upward movement of a bicep curl.

An eccentric muscle action is when the muscle fibers lengthen to lower a load, as in the downward movement of a bicep curl. While the fibers are lengthening, they’re also contracting to return the weight to the start position in a controlled manner. Eccentric muscle actions are common in strength training with free weights, body weight exercise, and non-hydraulic exercise machines.

Most activities of daily life contain both types of muscle actions. As an example, walking up the stairs works the quadriceps concentrically while walking down the stairs works the muscle eccentrically. Likewise, picking up a child or laundry basket are total-body concentric actions while lowering the child or laundry basket are eccentric movements.

Since we use the muscles in our bodies in both ways in every day life, we should also use both types of actions in strength-training programs.

According to the American College of Sports Medicine (ACSM) Position Stand On Resistance Training Progression published in 2002, muscle strength results from the proper activation of specific muscle fibers, which are recruited in response to the demands of the resistance-training program, and strength-training protocols should include both concentric and eccentric muscle actions.

What are the Benefits of Combined Concentric and Eccentric Training?

In 1990, Colliander and Tesch compared the effectiveness of training the quadriceps using either a concentric- only or concentric and eccentric program. Their results showed that the group that trained using both concentric and eccentric muscle actions achieved greater improvements in strength and strength-related tasks. The concentric and eccentric group outperformed the concentric-only group in vertical jump and three-repetition maximum half squat.

Concerned about the loss of muscle mass during space flight, a 2003 study by Hilliard-Robertson et.al. also compared combined action training to concentric-only training. Again, greater strength gains were found in the groups training with the combination of eccentric and concentric training.

A group of older adults were tested for their ability to perform activities of daily life (rising from a chair, stair climbing and descending, etc.). In the study, one group trained with concentric-only exercise while the other trained with eccentric and concentric exercise. The group that trained with the combined protocol showed greater improvements in function. Gur et al. (2002)

Bird et. al. (2005) recommend combined concentric and eccentric training using 1–3 sets and 15–20 repetitions to build muscular endurance. A study conducted by Marx JO et.al. (2001) compared the effects of different training volumes in women. They concluded that training programs with multiple sets and higher repetition produced greater gains in muscle endurance than lower volume programs.

What are the Benefits of Eccentric Training?

In addition to looking at the benefits of concentric and eccentric combined training programs, researchers have also studied the benefits of training eccentric muscle actions only compared to concentric muscle actions only. The results have shown that there are many benefits to training eccentric muscle actions.

These benefits include:

Greater increases in Strength

When eccentric only training has been compared to concentric only training, several researchers have discovered that eccentric training yields greater increases in strength than concentric.

One study looked at 6 weeks of eccentric vs. concentric training in women. Hortobagyi et.al. (1996). After the training, the concentric group improved strength 36% while the eccentric group had a 42% increase. This difference was significant (P<.05). The authors concluded that training eccentrically yielded greater strength adaptations faster than concentric training in women.

The superiority of eccentric training versus concentric training for developing strength has also been reported by Farthing and Chilibeck (2003), LaStayo et.al. (2003), Seger, et.al. (1998), and Hortobagyi et.al. (1997).

Greater muscle hypertrophy

It is well accepted that the stimulus for muscle growth is microtrauma to the muscle following exercise. The process of lengthening during a contraction increases the amount of microtrauma experienced by the muscle. In turn, this stimulates the muscle to rebuild and add and increase muscle fiber size in order to handle the load. While concentric training can induce some microtrauma, over the same period of time, eccentric training is more effective for promoting muscle growth.

Numerous studies have reported that eccentric training is superior to concentric training for inducing muscle hypertrophy. Farthing JP and Chilibeck PD (2003), Higbie (1996) and LaStayo et.al. (2003)

References

American College of Sports Medicine Position Stand on Progression Models in Resistance Training for Healthy Adults.(2002) Med Sci Sports Exer.34(2):364-380.

Bird, SP, Tarpenning, KM, & Marino FE. (2005) Designing resistance training programmes to enhance muscular fitness: a review of the acute programme variables. Sports Med , 35(10):841-51

Colliander EB and Tesch PA (1990) Effects of eccentric and concentric muscle actions in resistance training. Acta Physiol Scand, 140 (1):31-9.

Gur, H, Cakin, N, Akova, B, Okay, E, Kucukoglu,S. (2002) Concentric versus combined concentric-eccentric isokinetic training: effects on functional capacity and symptoms in patients with osteoarthrosis of the knee. Arch Phys Med Rehabil. 83(3): 308-16.

Hilliard-Robertson PC, Schneider SM, Bishop SL, and Guilliams ME (2003) Strength gains following different combined concentric and eccentric exercise regiems. Avait Space Environ Med. 74(4):342-7.

Hortobagyi T, Barrier J, Beard D, Braspennincx J, Koens P, Devita P, Dempsey L, and Lambert J (1996) Greater initial adaptations to submaximal muscle lengthening than maximal shortening. J Appl Physiol. 81(4):1677-82.

Farthing JP and Chilibeck PD (2003) The effect of eccentric training at different velocities on muscle hypertrophy. Eur J Appl Physiol. 89(6):570-7.

I think you mis-understand what I am saying. I am talking about supramaximal eccentric exercises like phate was referring to. Of course both phases of exercise are needed for strength and growth. I simple meant that eccentric phase only is not associated (key word) with hypertrophy, the body of the literature throughout the years has shown that the concentric phase of contraction is more effective at eliciting muscle hypertrophy than that of the eccentric phase because you can surely find a few scattered papers out there that say it can cause more. I did not exclusively say that eccentric exercise will not increase strength and size. I merely said that it is scientifically speaking not what we would consider the dominate stimulus to elicit response. The below excerpt should clarify better than I what I mean...LOL

Excerpt from Carpinelli et. al, 2004,

Concentric-Only versus Eccentric-Only (“supra-maximal”) Muscle Actions
Hakkinen and Komi (83) reported the results of resistance training with different muscle actions in a group of competitive junior Olympic weightlifters, as well as in a group of non-competitive resistance trainees. Thirteen competitive weightlifters (17-23 years) performed exercises described as the snatch, clean and jerk, squat, snatch and clean pull, and arm press 4x/wk for 12 weeks. Group A progressively performed all the exercises concentrically using 70-100 % of concentric maximum. Group B performed a similar routine except they executed eccentric-only muscle actions for 25 % of the snatch and clean pulls, squat, seated press, and lower-back exercises with a progression of 100-130 % of the concentric maximum (sets and repetitions not reported for either group). There were five different dynamometer tests for the knee-extensor muscles involving isometric, concentric, and eccentric muscle actions, and each group significantly improved in two of those tests. Group B showed a significantly greater increase in the clean and jerk (13.5 %) compared with group A (5.7 %). However, both groups significantly increased the snatch (7.1 and 9.9 %, groups A and B, respectively), with no significant difference between groups.

The 27 non-competitive males (20-30 years) who comprised groups C, D, and E trained 3x/wk with the bench press and squat, performing 1-6 repetitions per set for concentric muscle actions (80-100 %) and 1-3 repetitions per set for eccentric muscle actions (100-130 %), totaling 16-22 repetitions per exercise (83). Group C performed all the exercises concentrically. Group D performed approximately half the squats and bench presses eccentrically. Group E executed about three-quarters of the exercises eccentrically. In the five tests on the dynamometer for the knee extensors, group C did not significantly improve on any test, group D significantly increased four variables, and group E on two variables. The three groups significantly increased 1 RM squat, with the gains in groups D (29.2 %) and E (28.6 %) significantly greater than group C (20.3 %). Group C (15.2 %), D (19.5 %), and E (12.3 %) significantly increased 1 RM bench press. The gains in bench-press strength were not significantly different among the groups. Thigh girth significantly increased for group C (1.4 %), D (2.4 %), and E (1.4 %), with no significant difference among the groups (83).

Johnson et al. (84) trained eight college students 3x/wk for six weeks. The four exercises were described as the arm curl, arm press, knee flexion and knee extension. Exercises were performed concentric-only with 80 % 1 RM unilaterally, and eccentric-only (“supra-maximal”) with 120 % 1 RM on the contra-lateral side. Two sets of 10 repetitions were employed for concentric-only muscle actions, and two sets of six repetitions for eccentric-only muscle actions. Both types of training produced significant gains in isometric strength in all subjects, except for elbow flexion in the eccentric-only limb, and elbow flexion and knee flexion in the concentric-only limb. Dynamic strength increased for the arm-curl (~32 and 29 %), arm-press (~55 and 60 %), knee-flexion (~25 and 25 %), and knee-extension (~30 and 30 %) exercises, concentric-only and eccentric-only muscle actions, respectively. There was no significant difference between concentric (80 % 1 RM) and eccentric (120 % 1 RM) training for any of the dynamic strength measures.

Jones and Rutherford (85) assigned five previously untrained males and one female (~28 years) to perform concentric-only knee-extension exercise with one limb using 80 % 1 RM, and eccentric-only knee-extensions with the contra-lateral limb using a resistance 145 % greater than what was used for the concentric-only training. Subjects performed four sets of six repetitions (~2-3 s/muscle action) for each limb with one-minute rest between sets 3x/wk for 12 weeks. Assistants either lifted or lowered the resistance for the two different protocols. Strength increased 15 % in the concentric-only limb and 11 % in the eccentric-only limb, with no significant difference in the strength gains. Computerized tomography revealed a significant increase in quadriceps cross-sectional area in the concentric-only (5.7 %) and eccentric-only limbs (3.5 %), with no significant difference between limbs.

Komi and Buskirk (86) randomly assigned 31 males (~20 years) to a concentric, eccentric, or control group. The exercising groups performed either maximal concentric or maximal eccentric right elbow flexor muscle actions six times a day 4x/wk for seven weeks. The exercising tension was approximately 40 % greater in the eccentric group. The increase in maximal eccentric tension was significantly greater in the eccentric group (15.6 %) compared with the concentric group (6.7 %). Maximal isometric tension (8.6 %) and right arm girth (1.8 %) showed a significant increase only in the eccentric group. There was a significant increase in maximal concentric tension (the more practical functional ability to lift a resistance) and there was no significant difference between the concentric (12.1 %) and eccentric (15.8 %) groups.

Seliger et al. (87) assigned 15 highly trained rugby players (~26 years) to perform several upper-body and lower-body free-weight resistance exercises 2x/wk for 13 weeks. One group performed concentric-only muscle actions with 90-95 % of maximal resistance, and another group performed eccentric-only muscle actions with 145-150 % of maximal resistance (specific exercises, repetitions and sets not reported). Both groups showed a significant increase in bench press (~13 and 9 %) and squat strength (~49 and 49 %) in the concentric-only and eccentric-only groups, respectively. There was no significant difference in strength gains between groups.

Most of the results from these five studies (83-87) do not support the superiority of “supra-maximal” eccentric exercise. In the two studies (83, 86) that showed some advantage to “supra-maximal” eccentric muscle actions, there was no comparison group that performed conventional concentric and eccentric muscle actions, which is a combination of lifting and lowering the same resistance. It is important to note that “supra-maximal” eccentric-only exercise is not typically performed because it requires either specially designed exercise machines to lift the resistance, or highly motivated, knowledgeable, trustworthy training partners. With the exception of the study by Jones and Rutherford (85), which is cited in the Position Stand merely to show that four sets of resistance exercise will significantly increase muscular strength (p. 367), these studies (83-84, 86-87) are not cited in the Position Stand.

Concentric and Eccentric versus Concentric and Accentuated-Eccentric Muscle Actions
Another form of training with an eccentric resistance greater than the concentric resistance is accentuated eccentric exercise. It is accomplished with the help of a spotter, special exercise machines, or by using two limbs to perform the concentric muscle action and one limb for the eccentric muscle action. However, there were only two published studies (88-89) that compared this type of training with traditional concentric-eccentric training (lifting and lowering the same resistance).

Ben-Sira et al. (88) randomly assigned 60 previously untrained females (~21 years) to one of four experimental groups or a control group. The subjects performed bilateral concentric-only (65 % 1 RM), eccentric-only (65 % 1 RM), conventional concentric/eccentric (65 %/65 % 1 RM), or concentric/accentuated eccentric (65 %/130 % 1 RM) knee-extensor muscle actions for three sets of 10 repetitions 2x/wk for eight weeks. The 65/130 % group lifted the resistance (65 % 1 RM) with both limbs, and alternated lowering the resistance (130 % 1 RM) with one limb. Dynamic knee-extensor strength gains in the conventional group (19 %) and the eccentric-accentuated group (23 %) were significantly greater than the control group (~3 %), but not significantly different from each other. Post-hoc comparisons of the groups revealed no significant difference.

Godard et al. (89) randomly assigned 28 previously untrained males and females (~22 years) to a concentric/eccentric (con/ecc), concentric/accentuated eccentric (con/ecc+), or a control group. Resistance was initially set at 80 % 1 RM for both concentric and eccentric muscle actions in the con/ecc group. In the con/ecc+ group, resistance for the eccentric component was 40 % greater than the concentric resistance. Both groups performed one unilateral set of 8-12 RM knee extensions 2x/wk for 10 weeks. There was a significant increase in 1 RM (~95 and 94 %) and thigh girth (~6 and 5 %) in the con/ecc and con/ecc+ groups, respectively, with no significant difference between groups. Godard et al. (89) concluded that using the same amount of resistance for concentric and eccentric muscle actions was just as effective as the addition of accentuated eccentric muscle actions for producing increases in strength and thigh girth.

Several studies suggest that resistance training with exercises that provide resistance for a combination of concentric and eccentric muscles actions (i.e., conventional resistance training), as compared with concentric-only resistance training, produce significantly greater strength gains (44, 90-93), retention of strength gains (91), and muscle hypertrophy (94).

In summary, there is very little evidence cited to support the superiority of supra-maximal eccentric training, as claimed in the Position Stand (Table 6). Two studies (83, 86) reported an advantage in some but not all measures of strength with supra-maximal eccentric training. However, the protocols were not compared to resistance training that typically includes both concentric and eccentric muscle actions. The research (88-89) suggests that there is no additional benefit to performing accentuated eccentric muscle actions compared with traditional concentric/eccentric muscle actions (lifting and lowering a similar resistance).

[garythompson]

so to get my muscles bigger (hypertrophy), the best thing to do is eccentric training with half as many reps and more weight (100-130%) than my normal routine??

[MuscleScience]

so to get my muscles bigger (hypertrophy), the best thing to do is eccentric training with half as many reps and more weight (100-130%) than my normal routine??

No, read the last two paragraphs of the paper I posted.

[garythompson]

But this paragraph says the group "D" has the most increase in strength and size gains. "Group D performed approximately half the squats and bench presses eccentrically."

The 27 non-competitive males (20-30 years) who comprised groups C, D, and E trained 3x/wk with the bench press and squat, performing 1-6 repetitions per set for concentric muscle actions (80-100 %) and 1-3 repetitions per set for eccentric muscle actions (100-130 %), totaling 16-22 repetitions per exercise (83). Group C performed all the exercises concentrically. Group D performed approximately half the squats and bench presses eccentrically. Group E executed about three-quarters of the exercises eccentrically. In the five tests on the dynamometer for the knee extensors, group C did not significantly improve on any test, group D significantly increased four variables, and group E on two variables. The three groups significantly increased 1 RM squat, with the gains in groups D (29.2 %) and E (28.6 %) significantly greater than group C (20.3 %). Group C (15.2 %), D (19.5 %), and E (12.3 %) significantly increased 1 RM bench press. The gains in bench-press strength were not significantly different among the groups. Thigh girth significantly increased for group C (1.4 %), D (2.4 %), and E (1.4 %), with no significant difference among the groups (83).

[garythompson]

so....

[MuscleScience]

so....

In summary, there is very little evidence cited to support the superiority of supra-maximal eccentric training, as claimed in the Position Stand (Table 6). Two studies (83, 86) reported an advantage in some but not all measures of strength with supra-maximal eccentric training. However, the protocols were not compared to resistance training that typically includes both concentric and eccentric muscle actions. The research (88-89) suggests that there is no additional benefit to performing accentuated eccentric muscle actions compared with traditional concentric/eccentric muscle actions (lifting and lowering a similar resistance).


This part here is what I was referring to. Even though the group D that you mentioned did show increases in strength. They were not completely compared to a traditional strength program of concentric/eccentric that we all follow and that is heavily researched in the literature. Basically what the author is saying is, yes there is some evidence that heavy eccentric training can produce superior strength gains vs traditional weight programs. But the evidence for traditional training is far far superior in its magnitude than just a few papers...ie hundreds and hundreds.

Its called weighing the body of evidence, its a research term that means take one or two or three papers for what their findings are worth. Take ten or twenty or thirty and feel pretty confident that its a valid finding, and are not anomalous findings. Which can and often do happen in science.

[garythompson]

sometimes its hard to know what to believe when you have so many different opinions coming at you. anyway.

so the best way to get muscles bigger is with traditional weight training techniques and using more weight, fewer reps?

[garythompson]

come on musclescience, where are you?

[FireGuy]

If getting your muscles bigger is your goal you are going to want to do the vast majority of your work in the 8-15 rep range. There is nothing wrong with going heavy, high reps or negatives only now and then but I dont know of any bodybuilders who regularly incorporate heavy singles, doubles and triples into their everyday routine. I am sure someone will chime in about how they know so and so and he max's out on the bench every week and has a huge chest. There are exceptions to everything.

[garythompson]

the only thing i really want is bigger arms. everything else is ok. i usually do 10 reps on almost everything. I've done high reps before but never really tried low reps high weight. i'll give it a try for a while and see what happens. if nothing really happens ill go for the 8-15 reps

[Phate]

the only thing i really want is bigger arms. everything else is ok. i usually do 10 reps on almost everything. I've done high reps before but never really tried low reps high weight. i'll give it a try for a while and see what happens. if nothing really happens ill go for the 8-15 reps

you can't just get bigger arms, your body distributes muscle according to a genetic blueprint that's predetermined, so if you want bigger arms, start squatting

[Ronnie Rowland]

Control the negative and use an explosive positive making the muscles do all the work. Both the negative and the positive part of the repetition build strength and size. Work in the 6-12 rep-range with great intensity and your genetic make-up (how many type-2 fibers you where born with) will determine success. You cannot change your genetics with various training methods! Some people will never go far in bodybuilding because they are lacking in type-2 fibers.

[garythompson]

type 2 fibers?

[Phate]

type 2 fibers?

google anyone?

[STED]

1 - 4 reps heavy weight gains strength, medium reps 8 - 10 decent to heavy weight will get you gains. Low weight high rep count cuts!

I do 10 10 8 8 on everything lifting first two sets to warm the muscle up and get it burning, the last two sets of 8 the last 8 specially go fairly heavy so your really pushing it an maybe need a spot for the last 2 - 3 reps! Trust me youll feel the burn an pump from this! I do anyway works for me. As stated everyones different im just throwing it out there, give it a try.

example - bench press - two sets of 10 70kg - set of 8 120kg - last set 130kg 8 reps. Thats my weight i lift without taking AAS. You might be different you may be able to go heavier lighter, just trying give you an example to go off! good luck pal

[STED]

1 - 4 reps heavy weight gains strength, medium reps 8 - 10 decent to heavy weight will get you gains. Low weight high rep count cuts!

I do 10 10 8 8 on everything lifting first two sets to warm the muscle up and get it burning, the last two sets of 8 the last 8 specially go fairly heavy so your really pushing it an maybe need a spot for the last 2 - 3 reps! Trust me youll feel the burn an pump from this! I do anyway works for me. As stated everyones different im just throwing it out there, give it a try.

example - bench press - two sets of 10 70kg - set of 8 120kg - last set 130kg 8 reps. Thats my weight i lift without taking AAS. You might be different you may be able to go heavier lighter, just trying give you an example to go off! good luck pal

[FireGuy]

^^ Are you saying high reps get you cut?

[garythompson]

he said low weight high reps count cuts. are you going to prove him wrong lol

[FireGuy]

Diet and cardio get you cut not high rep sets. One of the bigger misconceptions there is.

[Phate]

Diet and cardio get you cut not high rep sets. One of the bigger misconceptions there is.

agreed, in fact, low rep high weight stimulates the central nervous system which can cause a raise in metabolism even after your workout

[FireGuy]

Unless you count steps on the treadmill as reps, then a set of 2000, 6 times a week will get you cut.

[garythompson]

Unless you count steps on the treadmill as reps, then a set of 2000, 6 times a week will get you cut.

lol if you can do a million sit ups and you have high body fat your're still not going to be ripped.