swifto....and pros!!!!

[sasman]

well I could bump the cycle up to 6 weeks but really would like to stay at 4

Now is clomid really a good choice to add with the nolva for my pct? I have no way of getting a hold of Toremifene or i would use that for sure.... from what i read its the top dog. I can get clomid but read that aromasin or amiridex are better I know that they are not serms but everything i read it says they increase test while lowering E.

clomid seems to be much less effective and give the emotional side effects.

Now I completely trust your opinion swifto... so if you tell me to do something i will. Just from what i have research here in the forms i was going to go with

masteron 100mg/EOD weeks 1-4
Test P 125mg/EOD weeks 1-4
HCG 100ius/day weeks 1-2 500ius weeks 3-4
(three days after last shot) Nolvadex 20mg/ED weeks 5-7
aromasin .5mg/ED weeks 5-7

I was also looking at adding sustain alpha boosting test and toco 8 pct stack.... have you heard anything about it?

I am willing to go the extra mile with my pct.... I think i really did a number on it before. not sure where my labs are as of now plan to test them before i start my cycle. but i have been off for a bit now and do get still get hard. nothing like when i was taking gear obviously but still do get hard.

so please help experts.... i want to do this right!

6'2
217
8%
26 y/o
lot of gear under my belt..... still trying to perfect the pct. I suck at it!!!!

[WARMachine]

well I could bump the cycle up to 6 weeks but really would like to stay at 4 (Bump it bro.)

Now is clomid really a good choice to add with the nolva for my pct? (Yes, it is a GREAT choice.) I have no way of getting a hold of Toremifene or i would use that for sure.... from what i read its the top dog.

I can get clomid but read that aromasin or amiridex are better I know that they are not serms but everything i read it says they increase test while lowering E. (Id like to see where you read that lol. Clomid is simply a must in any good PCT. It does things Nolva cannot do, and AI's are great when included in PCT's, but arent needed in most cases.)

clomid seems to be much less effective (Quite the opposite.) and give the emotional side effects. (Only in ridiculous dose of over 150mgs ED.)

Look bro ill give you this advice, when doing a PCT, ALWAYS include the following.

Nolvadex - 40/40/20/20
Clomid - 100/100/50/50

(Optional, best used when a 19-Nor is in your cycle.)
Aromasin - 25/25/25/25

(There're many ways to run hCG, i find this to be the most effective IMO.)
hCG - 500IU's 2xW for 2 weeks before cycle ends, and 2 weeks into PCT.

Thats a PCT, im sure Swifto will agree.

[Swifto]

Look bro ill give you this advice, when doing a PCT, ALWAYS include the following.

Nolvadex - 40/40/20/20
Clomid - 100/100/50/50

(Optional, best used when a 19-Nor is in your cycle.)
Aromasin - 25/25/25/25

(There're many ways to run hCG, i find this to be the most effective IMO.)
hCG - 500IU's 2xW for 2 weeks before cycle ends, and 2 weeks into PCT.

Thats a PCT, im sure Swifto will agree.

Great advice mate.

well I could bump the cycle up to 6 weeks but really would like to stay at 4

Now is clomid really a good choice to add with the nolva for my pct? Yes, 50mg/ED for 2 weeks, then 25mg/ED until your sex drive is back or BW done. I have no way of getting a hold of Toremifene or i would use that for sure.... from what i read its the top dog. I can get clomid but read that aromasin or amiridex are better I know that they are not serms but everything i read it says they increase test while lowering E. If you control E when on your cycle, you shouldnt need an AI during PCT IMHO.

clomid seems to be much less effective and give the emotional side effects. No, thats only in some individuals and when used at high doses. As Warmachine has said.

Now I completely trust your opinion swifto... so if you tell me to do something i will. Just from what i have research here in the forms i was going to go with

masteron 100mg/EOD weeks 1-4
Test P 125mg/EOD weeks 1-4
HCG 100ius/day weeks 1-2 500ius weeks 3-4 Run HCG 125-250ius 2-3 times weekly mate.
(three days after last shot) Nolvadex 20mg/ED weeks 5-7
aromasin .5mg/ED weeks 5-7 PCT should last until your sex drive is back or BW done
I was also looking at adding sustain alpha boosting test and toco 8 pct stack.... have you heard anything about it? I have. Its meant to be very effective and I'll be running it in the coming weeks. Its a very good addition to a PCT IMHO. Blood tests have shown it increases endogenous T.

I am willing to go the extra mile with my pct.... I think i really did a number on it before. not sure where my labs are as of now plan to test them before i start my cycle. but i have been off for a bit now and do get still get hard. nothing like when i was taking gear obviously but still do get hard.

so please help experts.... i want to do this right!

6'2
217
8%
26 y/o
lot of gear under my belt..... still trying to perfect the pct. I suck at it!!!!

Bolds.

[sasman]

this is great imput boys....
ok ok I am bumping the cycle to 6 weeks..... I really didn't want to I am not working for size.... only explosion and speed. I will be doing a ton of short burst sprinting and jumping.

So now i have the ability to get ahold of nolva clomid and the Toremifene now..... I am considering running the nolva and toremifene.... but if running all three would be fine i have no problems with it as i respect your imput war machine. have not seen many threads with all three being ran.

I also am confused on your hcg comment war machine..... I thought that I was only to run hcg when i was actuallly on....b/c of its ability to cont inhibiting natural production on LH.

I will now be taking my HCG at 125iu/2-3 times weeks for first 4 weeks.... and bumping to hcg to 500 iu/day weeks 5-6..... open to listing to weeks 7-8 like you said war machine but confused.

now i realize that with masteron i prob don't need an AI my only concern was not knowing my already probable built up E levels from before. and thinking i need to get them down a bit.... what patho wise causes them to naturally drop? but I do not have side effect with E much and honestly i am overly surprised that i seem to produce test so easily again.
also what about controlling cortisol....? i take pill form vit E is that enough?

Is there a good way of getting my labs done..... my plan was to see my pcp and discuss wieght loss and give suggestion that certian labs I feel sould be testing.... thinking i would be openly giving him the idea that i have been "using" but not saying it! so it does not show up on my insurence..... i just was something that my be cost effective.....any better suggestions.

and finally if i use the test lotion and toco 8 when to I implement them into my plan of action?

thanks guys great feedback

[Swifto]

this is great imput boys....
ok ok I am bumping the cycle to 6 weeks..... I really didn't want to I am not working for size.... only explosion and speed. I will be doing a ton of short burst sprinting and jumping.

So now i have the ability to get ahold of nolva clomid and the Toremifene now..... I am considering running the nolva and toremifene.... but if running all three would be fine i have no problems with it as i respect your imput war machine. have not seen many threads with all three being ran.

I also am confused on your hcg comment war machine..... I thought that I was only to run hcg when i was actuallly on....b/c of its ability to cont inhibiting natural production on LH.

I will now be taking my HCG at 125iu/2-3 times weeks for first 4 weeks.... and bumping to hcg to 500 iu/day weeks 5-6..... open to listing to weeks 7-8 like you said war machine but confused.

now i realize that with masteron i prob don't need an AI my only concern was not knowing my already probable built up E levels from before. and thinking i need to get them down a bit.... what patho wise causes them to naturally drop? but I do not have side effect with E much and honestly i am overly surprised that i seem to produce test so easily again.
also what about controlling cortisol....? i take pill form vit E is that enough?

Is there a good way of getting my labs done..... my plan was to see my pcp and discuss wieght loss and give suggestion that certian labs I feel sould be testing.... thinking i would be openly giving him the idea that i have been "using" but not saying it! so it does not show up on my insurence..... i just was something that my be cost effective.....any better suggestions.

and finally if i use the test lotion and toco 8 when to I implement them into my plan of action?

thanks guys great feedback

Wait wait...

I misread your thread. You dont need HCG. I dont think 4-6 weeks warrants its use. Keep it for 6+ weeks. Your HPTA will be shutdown for a small number of weeks, not for an extended peroid.

Keep everything the same.

I also think Tore/Clomid/Nolva is overkill. Use Tore and one other.

[WARMachine]

^ Agreed with the above.

hCG is not needed in this case, sorry if i was confusing earlier.

I was just saying what a detailed PCT should look like. Id use hCG anytime you have a 19-Nor in your cycle, or if youre cycling for more than 16wks.

But in this case, its not needed.

btw, thanks for the compliments Swifto!

If you have a chance, id love your imput on my recent thread.

Running Letro reversals, preventing gyno, and everthing inbetween
http://forums.steroid.com/showthread.php?t=379916

-WAR

[sasman]

Hey Warmachine....
I do understand that you feel i should not need HCG for this short cycle however, i am still not understanding your plan for when it is needed to run it for 2 weeks after the cycle has ended. can you please explain this rational?

also any pointers on getting BW would be appriciated.
and finally can you please tell me your feeling of why running hcg or all three serms would be a bad idea.... when i to me it seems as if it may be overkill but how could overkill hurt if it only makes sure you goals are obtained? thanks ---sas

[WARMachine]

All three SERMS together is just that. Overkill. Nothing wrong i suppose, but I wouldnt expect a faster recovery.

I also am confused on your hcg comment war machine..... I thought that I was only to run hcg when i was actuallly on....b/c of its ability to cont inhibiting natural production on LH.

As far as the hCG after the cycle has ended;


Im not saying you should use hCG while not on cycle or after PCT. I was saying that it is fine to use during PCT. Thats the point i was making. The use of hCG is that it minics LH. hCG doesnt stimulate LH production, thats why why dont use hCG alone in the PCT.


here is an article By William Llewellyn

Understanding Post Cycle Therpy Recovery

The Hypothalamic-Pituitary-Testicular Axis, or HPTA for short, is the thermostat for your bodys natural production of testosterone. Too much testosterone and the furnace will shut off. Not enough, and the heat is turned up, to put it very simply. For the purposes of our discussion here we can look at this regulating process as having three levels. At the top is the hypothalamic region of the brain, which releases the hormone GnRH (Gonadotropin-Releasing Hormone) when it senses a need for more testosterone. GnRH sends a signal to the second level of the axis, the pituitary, which releases Luteinizing Hormone in response. LH for short, this hormone stimulates the testes (level three) to secrete testosterone. The same sex steroids (testosterone, estrogen) that are produced serve to counter-balance things, by providing negative feedback signals (primarily to the hypothalamus and pituitary) to lower the secretion of testosterone when too much of this hormone is sensed. Synthetic steroids, of course, suppress testosterone the same way. This quick background of the testosterone-regulating axis is necessary to furthering our discussion, as we need to first look at the underlying mechanisms involved before we can understand why natural recovery of the HPTA post-cycle is a slow process. Only then can we implement an ancillary drug program to effectively deal with it.



Testicular Desensitization


Although steroids suppress testosterone production primarily by lowering the level of gonadotropic hormones discussed above, the big roadblock to a restored HPTA after we come off the drugs is surprisingly not the level of LH itself. This problem is made clearly evident in a study published in Acta Endocrinologica back in 1975(1). Here blood parameters, including testosterone and LH levels, were monitored in male subjects whom were given testosterone enanthate injections of 250mg weekly for 21 weeks. Subjects remained under investigation for an additional 18 weeks after the drug was discontinued. At the start of the study, LH levels became suppressed in direct relation to the rise in testosterone, which is to be expected. Things looked very different, however, once the steroids had been withdrawn (see Figure I). LH levels went on the rise quickly (by the 3rd week), while testosterone barely budged for quite some time. In fact, on average it was more than 10 weeks before any noticeable movement started. This lack of correlation makes clear that the problem in getting androgen levels restored is not the level of LH, but in fact testicular atrophy and desensitization to this hormone. After a period of inactivation the testes have apparently lost mass (atrophied), making them unable to perform the workload required by heightened levels of LH.


Post-Cycle LH Levels


Post Cycle Testosterone Levels



Figure I. LH and Testosterone measurements starting 1 week after the last injection of 250mg of testosterone enanthate (pretreated measures were 5 mU/ml and 4.5 ng/ml respectively). Note that between weeks 1 and 5, as testosterone levels are declining due to the cessation of exogenous androgen administration, LH levels are already rebounding. From weeks 5 to 10 testosterone levels are at or very near baseline, to spite the substantial LH levels by this point. No significant increase in testosterone is noted until after the 10-week mark.
HCG


So we now see, contrary to the dominating opinion of the times, that anti-estrogens alone will do little to raise testosterone levels in the early weeks of the post-cycle window. This leaves us to focus on a very different level of the HPTA in order to hasten recovery: the testes. For this we will need the injectable drug HCG. If you are not familiar with it, HCG, or Human Chorionic Gonadotropin, is a prescription fertility agent that mimics the bodies own natural LH. Although the testes are equally desensitized to this drug as LH (they both work through the same mechanism), we are administering it as a measured drug and are therefore not constrained by the limits of our own LH production. We similarly can use HCG to provide a bolus dose of LH (of our choosing), which works only to augment the recovering LH levels we already have in the body. In essence we are looking to shock them with an overwhelmingly high level of LH activity, coming from both endogenous and exogenous sources. We want it to reach a level far above what our body, even when supported by anti-estrogens, could possibly do on its own. The result can be a rapid restoration of original testicular mass and functioning, which would allow normal levels of testosterone to be output much sooner than without such an ancillary program. What we are looking at now is HCG actually being the pivotal post-cycle drug, while anti-estrogens are relegated to a supportive role at best.