First Post, 1year of Bodybuilding Down, Prohormone questions?

[rap87]

Basic Stats:
22
6 foot
180lbs
Under 10% Body Fat.
1Year Lifting
Chest,Legs,Arms,Shoulders/Abs,Back 2 days off split

Current Diet
7 Meals a Day, 4 Shakes of Muscle Juice, 3 Whole Meals

6987 calories, 395g Protein, 974g Carbs, 157g Fat (Yes I actually do have a fast metabolism rofl, I don't just eat 3 meals a day and say I do)

Current Base Lifts
Bench 205x4
Military Press 155 x4
Squat 240 x4
Deadlift 315 x4

I started last year at about 145pds 3% to 5% bodyfat. Before and After Pictures Below. I did this by training in the 4-6 rep range, adding 3 shakes in the beginning to my daily meals thereby increasing calories dramatically, and I took the basic pre and post workouts drinks. When I hit my first sticking point in weight gain I got my diet on an excel spreadsheet, starting eating the same stuff every day, so I could actually know what I was eating to make adjustments. I also recently just got a job at a sports nutrition store to get a good discount on supplements and get my meals in every 2.5hrs, which further helps in my endeavor of getting big. Lastly, I know alot of you will shit your pants on seeing the calories, but muscle juice as 1300 calories in it per shake, I don't even count the milk I put it in which is even more. I also weigh out my chicken and steak, and eat oatmeal with every meal...I know what I'm eating and thats the number...However, working in sports nutrition I see people everyday who say one thing and really are , so I can initially understand questioning those calories...but trust me...its accurate.

Questions:
http://www.tokkyonutrition.com/prohormones.html
Okay now for the questions. At my store we have this line of prohormones called Tokkyo Nutrition. I recently hit a sticking point and being that I was eating an ungoldy amount of calories for most people, I decided I would try this out and see if I got anything off of it. I starting taking the Tren 19-norandrosta-4, 9-diene-3, 17-dion. I've gained 10pds so far off of it and my lifts have went up steadily. I've been taking liver support and a natural test booster with it. I am coming off of it in the next 10days. I have had no real side effects other than a sharp libido increase initially followed by a slight dip in libido. I have planned Gaspari Novedex and perhaps a natural booster for the PCT after. I really liked the effects of it and I believe I made such great success by training heavy in the 4-6 rep range using the compound lifts, and by staying on top of my nutrition. My question is what prohormone should I take from here? I have been researching Superdrol, which seems to be the most potent pro-steroid, I guess you would call it, that is actually legal on the market. I don't believe I was actually supposed to get as much mass as I did off Tren, so being that Superdrol is an actual bulking pro hormone I was wondering if that would be a step in the right direction? Lastly, just how strong would you say prohormones are as compared to steroids? I know typically one would want to opt for hitting their natural limit before steroids, in that regard is using prohormones breaking that line or? Thanks for any tips.

[Immortal Soldier]

The tren prohormone you took wasn't tren, lets just make that clear. The target hormone (what it tries to convert into) is nandrolone and it converts at around 5-6%.

Pro-hormones are precursor steroids meaning in the body they are converted to steroids through the liver and testes process, they are based of a parent hormone (steroid), but they only convert at less than 10% thus they are no where near as powerful as their parent hormone.

Second, more pro-hormones today are containing acitve ingridents to avoid the conversion process and create more powerful supplements thus they fall under the designer steroid category.

A year of training was too little to begin pro-hormone use, but that is my opinion your n00b gains def. kicked in because you made an impressive gain of weight in one year.

What you need to accept now is you aren't going to be gaining the massive amounts of weight you did in the beginning, you experienced your n00b gains now the body is counteracting it and your gains will come by very slow now like mother nature intended.

What you need to be careful on is to not get too deep into this pro-hormone gain or else it will lead you craving the "real thing" too soon, thats what happend to me. It's a slippery slope.

[diesel405]

AAAHHHHH, i remember the days of pro hormones, and thinking they actually worked. lol
Heres the deal, lay off the shakes and eat! You are 6' 180? You need food.....

[yucon92]

1- i think you should cut a couple of the weight gainers and add real food
2- you need to give your self proper time off befor starting superdrol
3-you need to run a real pct (real nolva and clomid)
imo

[Gaspari1255]

AAAHHHHH, i remember the days of pro hormones, and thinking they actually worked. lol
Heres the deal, lay off the shakes and eat! You are 6' 180? You need food.....

Theres a few out there that give better gains than AAS orals.

[rap87]

The tren prohormone you took wasn't tren, lets just make that clear. The target hormone (what it tries to convert into) is nandrolone and it converts at around 5-6%.

Pro-hormones are precursor steroids meaning in the body they are converted to steroids through the liver and testes process, they are based of a parent hormone (steroid), but they only convert at less than 10% thus they are no where near as powerful as their parent hormone.

Second, more pro-hormones today are containing acitve ingridents to avoid the conversion process and create more powerful supplements thus they fall under the designer steroid category.

A year of training was too little to begin pro-hormone use, but that is my opinion your n00b gains def. kicked in because you made an impressive gain of weight in one year.

What you need to accept now is you aren't going to be gaining the massive amounts of weight you did in the beginning, you experienced your n00b gains now the body is counteracting it and your gains will come by very slow now like mother nature intended.

What you need to be careful on is to not get too deep into this pro-hormone gain or else it will lead you craving the "real thing" too soon, thats what happend to me. It's a slippery slope.

I appreciate your insight, you seem to know your stuff. As for some follow up questions. If, this was a real steroid would the gains have been insane? I thought 10pds was pretty crazy, I attribute that to the prohormone because I didn't change anything as far as my calories or my training. What insight do you have as far as Superdrol goes? Is this still in the same class as a 10% conversion rate, being that apparently its a designer steroid? If, not just how strong is that? I will say steroids are defiantly tempting, however, I want to balance my deep desire for size with whats the best overall. I was hoping pro hormones would be just enough to get me gaining without hurting the big picture too much. I've always been thin and I was really happy that after a year I at least look healthy and fit. I think 200pds shredded on me would look great and people would know I'm a bodybuilder even in clothes, which would be nice. Lastly, do I really need to take 4 weeks of PCT and then another 4 weeks of normalization before I can start Superdrol, or is the PCT fine at 4 weeks?

[rap87]

1- i think you should cut a couple of the weight gainers and add real food
2- you need to give your self proper time off befor starting superdrol
3-you need to run a real pct (real nolva and clomid)
imo

Are calories not calories in the broad scheme? I'd have a hard time eating 1300 calories in one sitting...unless it was fatty pizza or something. I wouldn't have any problem running a real PCT, but I have no access to those compounds. Lastly, what would you say is the proper time off of Tokkyo Tren?

[yucon92]

food is always better your missing out on alot of nutrients and you soulnt need over 6000 cals to grow your body probably not going to be able to digest all those cals at once just eat small meals thoughout the day.as for pct go to ar-r they will have every thing you need (the red banner at the the top of the screen)as for time off afeter pct i would wait at least 6 weeks before you start something else.just because you can buy them legally does not make them safe

[rap87]

So for Superdrol it would be 3 weeks on, 3 weeks post cycle, and then 6 weeks off completely?

[rap87]

Lastly what would be be my PCT off of the Tren Prohormone and then the Superdrol clone?

[yucon92]

yeah general rule time on +pct=time off.as for the tren ph i dont know exactly what that is but i would at a minimum do 40/40/40/40 of nolva but preferably nolva and clomid to be on the safe side clomid at 50/50/50/50

[rap87]

So, even with the weaker ProHormones, that only convert at 10% you still need real PCT, instead of the over the counter Gaspari Novdex/Test boosters. I knew for sure I'd need the real stuff with Superdrol because its an actual designer steroid, but I'll need that for this as well? Can you explain why I have to take Nolva and Clomid? Don't they both overload Estrogen Receptors thereby reducing them whats the diff between the 2? Also with Superdrol, didn't I read they only wanted you taking Clomid?

[rap87]

P.S. How quick does the Novdex/Clomid come from AAS? Also, is this something thats alittle sheisty with the customs people?

[yucon92]

its ar-r not aas but i got mine within 4 days if your in the u.s it shouldnt be a problem

[rap87]

Alright thanks, and what about the Nolva/Clomid, 1 or the other, both or and why? Obviously coming off my Test will be low and my Estrogen high. I want a mild estrogen to bind to receptors and block the estorgen in my body. The body sensing the imbalance, should quickly elevate its own testerone production....I'm guessing...but why use Nolva/Clomid together, or one over the other to do the job?

[yucon92]

i would run both you want your natural levels to return to normal asap but you could get away with just one sense it was a short/mild cycle i would use nolva over clomid because clomid seems to have alittle more sides