1st Cycle Advice, Stats Included.

[rap87]

Basic Stats:
22
6 foot
180lbs
Under 8% Body Fat.
1.5Years Lifting

Current Diet
7 Meals a Day, 4 Shakes of Muscle Juice, 3 Whole Meals
6987 calories, 395g Protein, 974g Carbs, 157g Fat

I guess immortal was right, I played around with prohormones for awhile and I'm getting tired of popping like 20 pills for protection of my liver just to see some gains that aren't huge. So now, I'm investigating doing the beginner recommended Test E cycle which I believe is 500mgs a week for 12 weeks? Then I will follow the Pheednos PCT. I am wondering what type of results could be expected and are their any FAQS on proper injections I am a bit nervous about abscesses after seeing some photos...jesus I don't want that to happen. I plan on doing this cycle ASAP, as soon as I get enough posts to ask for a source check. Website I found online...so I'm not going to blow $edited on Test E, if I'm not sure about it. In any case just trying to feel out if this is the right type of cycle to do for a beginner. Also, I work at a sports nutrition store...if this works out decent, is it going to be obvious that I blew up quickly? I guess will the other employees find it easy to notice I must be on something usually? Just curious if I'll have to wear some baggy clothes for a few months hah. Anyway thanks for all the help, I have a lot of respect for this stuff and want to do it correctly.

[jbm]

IMO! 6 feet at 180lbs is still a bit underweight bro... you can go to 200lbs quickly with a proper diet, training and rest. How about cycle when you are 24 yrs old above. Just my opinion bro.

[ninesecz]

first off.. you can not discuss prices on here!
Second.. at 180 I do not think there is an way you need almost 7000 calories a day! You are either way off on your macros or you are getting fatter by the day! No one who only weighs 180 pounds could eat that much and not gt fat! Pro B.B. like Jay Cutler weigh 300# and have 10X the muscle to feed as you do and most only eat 5500-6500 calories a day! Something is not right! Even myself, I am 270# and I can gain weight off of 4500calories a day! if i ate 6000 a day i would be 350# and fat as can be! Lets have you get your diet in check first off. You are not actually eating 7 meals a day@! you are eating 3 and then drinking the other 4! you diet needs a ton of work before cycling! you need than 3 whole food meals a day!

[rap87]

Well, I would hope I wouldn't need to eat 7k a day, but I'm telling you I work in sports nutrition I have a guy whose been doing it naturally for 10years work on my diet, and he typically says a calorie is a calorie rather you drink it or not. Now someone with a slower metabolism if they hoped on 4 drinks of muscle juice a day...I'm assuming they would get fatter. I don't gain any fat from it. I'm on the extreme end with my metabolism. Not many people just walk around and eat w/e the hell they want and keep below 10% body fat either. The guys at the shop do 3 meals 3 shakes and gain weight off of about the exact range your talking, but I do the same diet and 7k doesn't even phase my weight, whats that say about the metabolism all things else being equal, its a hell of a lot faster....Look I will be opened minded with your suggestions, but I will say I really don't think I have the typical metabolism, when I started I was like 145 for god sakes, skinny all of my life. I gained weight fine when I started doing shakes of 650 calories each, now I upped that and hit another weight plateau...shits crazy I can't even get fat.

[PC650]

haha ya save those shakes for pre/post workouts ONLY.

[rap87]

IMO! 6 feet at 180lbs is still a bit underweight bro... you can go to 200lbs quickly with a proper diet, training and rest. How about cycle when you are 24 yrs old above. Just my opinion bro.

Well, I will agree that as a bodybuilder its defiantly underweight. To the average Joe I have a really lean athletic physique, but its not really what I'm going for. at 6' to be anything worth a damn I gotta be 210+. Why would 24 be the age? I don't agree with it, but I had a family member compete in bodybuilding and win a lot of awards starting cycling at 16, back in the 70s, never had any issues, but was about 5-11 225 on stage, saw 250+ has a powerlifter.

[rap87]

haha ya save those shakes for pre/post workouts ONLY.

Whats the big difference with foods over shakes...any studies showing the difference? If, you have a fast metabolism, just how can you eat 1000 calories in one sitting! I've typically seen that smaller guys have smaller appetites than obviously the fatter ones, I'm imagining its hormonal, but if I got to force feed I will, but whats the evidence that it will make a significant difference?

[jbm]

Well, I will agree that as a bodybuilder its defiantly underweight. To the average Joe I have a really lean athletic physique, but its not really what I'm going for. at 6' to be anything worth a damn I gotta be 210+. Why would 24 be the age? I don't agree with it, but I had a family member compete in bodybuilding and win a lot of awards starting cycling at 16, back in the 70s, never had any issues, but was about 5-11 225 on stage, saw 250+ has a powerlifter.

AGE
In humans your Endocrine system is not fully functional until an average age of 25yrs, although the main development is up to around 21yrs it still fluctuates a little bit up to its fully functional age. There is a risk of permanently damaging your HPTA if you take AAS to young and you could end up with symptoms of andropause and HRT for life. Symptoms could be Limp dick, low libido, depression, low energy, low endurance, erection problems and many more but.......are these the types of symptoms you want to have in your 20's?. Believe me its hard to cope with these in your 40's yet alone in your prime of your life.

Around this age your Testosterone levels are the highest they going to be in your life naturally, so use what you have and don't take the risk of damage, I am passionate about this because ive seen it many times with young kids wanting to looking like their heroes and they think the answer is in an injection/tablet.

Taking AAS to young can also cause problems with development, one other main problem is premature sealing of your epiphyeal bone and the consequences mean that you wont grow as big as your genetics could allow you to, there is a test which can be done to see if your growth plates have sealed yet but the average age is around 21yrs old.

by marcus300

[sizerp]

Whats the big difference with foods over shakes...any studies showing the difference? If, you have a fast metabolism, just how can you eat 1000 calories in one sitting! I've typically seen that smaller guys have smaller appetites than obviously the fatter ones, I'm imagining its hormonal, but if I got to force feed I will, but whats the evidence that it will make a significant difference?

The difference is digestion time! Also, you receive a LOT more nutrients from REAL FVCKING FOOD. Man... it's kinda like common sense bro. To be honest, if you were eating 6-7kcal a day from REAL FOOD you would be getting fat, or not be able to actually eat that much.

Not knocking you, but head over to the diet section... get a propper diet in order THEN cycle. Not saying you shouldn't cycle... just do it right.

You'd be surprised at the amount of phytonutrients and other benefitial properties real foods contain, that your body screams for on a daily basis, especially when you're training hard, or have exogeonous hormones in your body.

You work a sports nutrition shop, that's great. I worked at a health food store, and worked beside MDs... overall health is better than just plain jamming useless calories into your body. Understand FOOD and then you'll be GTG is all I am sayin.

Do you eat veggies, EFAs? Those are two of the most important aspects of a high protein diet. Also you're eating TOO MUCH protein for your size. A lot may be going to waste, and if you're worried about wasting $$, this is the first thing I'd address if I were you. GL and head on over to the diet section for some help.

[jbm]

real food is really the key not shakes!

[PC650]

yep. i never really got big muscle gains till i switched from alot of shakes too real food. and ive been lifting hard for many many years.

[ninesecz]

As these guys said. The shakes are great pre and post workout because the liquid has a fast absorption rate therefore feeds the muscles quickly and efficently! Whole food meals are slower acting and slower digesting causing you to eat less and still maintain! Do not just listen to the guys that work with you or come in there! Just cause someone is big DOES NOT mean they have a clue.. In some instances yes but a lot of the time people just get lucky and hit the diet close to what works. My 1st suggetion for you would be to eat a nice big whole foods meal right before you go to bed! this i when your metabolism is at its slowest and the food you consume will take longer to digest. Some nice lean beef or steak. Stay away from fish unless it is like Talapia or Orange Roughie. and eat another giant meal in the am with a big bowl of oatemeal or something else that is a little starchy! I bet if you do this you will not need 7k a day! no one shoul be drinking more than they eat! Shakes should be used just to make up for when and what you cant eat, not to just take the place of because... start hear and see how it goes and stop just taking advice from very semi big guy you see in your store! I knwo a lot of really big guys who have horrible diet and laughable workout routine but because God or mother nature gave them a great metabolism, they still grow!

[rap87]

Alright, well what would you guy suggests I try whole food calorie range? My fear is I will go to 4 meals and 2 shakes and starting losing weight...But it does make alil sense, you are typically more full off of a whole food meal than a shake, but for me a 500 to 600 calorie meal typically fills me up, but I want to grow, so I'll force feed, but in designing my diet, what should I try to shoot for? Also after I fix my diet I'll give it a month and see if I start gaining weight, but I appreciate you guys concern, but if I get blood-work etc., is their anyway to tell if its safe for me to cycle, or am I going to have to accept the slower gains until 24?

[redz]

You should lay out your exact diet, im not buying this 7k calories a day thing either. Also post up a pic and show us this sub 8% bf.

[rap87]

Meals Item Qty Calories Protein Carbs Fat

7:30am Muscle Juice 1 1300 71 194 27

Pre Workout 30g 100 0 25g 0

Totals: 1400 71 194 27

9:30-10am Post Workout 102g 300 0 75 0
Egg Whites 3 75 15 3 0
Eggs 2 142 12 0 10
Oatmeal 1/2 Cup 150 5 27 3

Totals: 667 32 105 13

12:30pm Muscle Juice 1 1300 71 194 27

Totals: 1300 71 194 27

3:00p Chicken 4oz 272 32 0 16
Brown Rice 1/2 cup 76 2 17 0
Bagel .5 Bagel 125 4 24.5 0.75
Totals: 473 38 41.5 16.75

5:30pm Muscle Juice 1 1300 71 194 27

Totals: 1300 71 194 27

8:00pm Chicken 4oz 272 32 0 16
Oatmeal 1/2 Cup 150 5 27 3
Bagel .5 Bagel 125 4 24.5 0.75
Totals: 547 41 51.5 19.75

10:00pm Muscle Juice 1 1300 71 194 27

Totals: 1300 71 194 27

Total 6987 395 974 157.5

[rap87]

Alright there's that sorry about alignment I have that on an excel spreadsheet. Will post a pick from a month ago in a second. I am also wanting to switch out chicken for Ham, been doing Chicken for like 6months want something else. Probably Ham for lunch and Steak for dinner.

[rap87]

[rap87]

I have been searching for this whole foods vs powder and haven't turned up much concrete, could use some help on this.

[Matt]

I have been searching for this whole foods vs powder and haven't turned up much concrete, could use some help on this.

Most powders will say on them, "to be used with a good diet".....

Think about it, if powders were as good or better than food then hell, i would never eat real food again, id just stick to the powders...

[ninesecz]

Rap 87 you have a good physique but by looking at you it does not look like you have a lighting fast metabolism. I am also going to say from my experience you are closer to 10-12% BF which dont get me wrong is still good. Also there are some MR's out there that are just as good as whole foods. For instance, Lee Labrada Lean Body is an actual "meal replacement" shake and actually considered a whole food. There are some other companies that also make Whole food replacement I.E. Met-RX. But Some protein powder in milk mixed on a blender is no where close to being a "whole food" this is also why the meal replacements that are actual whole foods are like $2-$4 each serving and ends up being more expensive than real food anyway

[rap87]

You wouldn't consider Ultimate Nutrition a suitable replacement then? I guess I want to point out that I am not being close minded and going to act like I know it all, but...if I decide to cut out alot of these drinks for whole foods I know my calories are going to drop and I don't want to lose weight...I am trying to gauge what whole food range I should try... Lets say I did 4 whole food meals and 2 shakes around workout time, what calorie range should I try to make the meals and then shakes as an experiment? Lastly, after I get the diet dialed in, then could I consider a cycle. I am really interested in competing, I know I have small joints, small waist, wide shoulders going for me, but in the grand scheme I am still way to small for stage, but its my goal...do you guys think I'd have much chance locally to place well after I put on some more weight?

P.S. I will work up a sample diet and post it for opinions while I'm at work tomorrow.

[ninesecz]

No that Ultimate Nutrition is OK but it is not a "whole food" mel replacement.

Here http://www.labrada.com/ go to this site. It is the Labrada Nutrition homepage and go to MRP and look at what they have in them and how they work. I am in no way involed with this company bit i have used Metrx and some others and these just taste 100X better than any I ave tasted. they have actually won awards for the taste for years! and the nutrients cant be beat like 40grms of protein, 35 carbs and like 10fat and as i said they are actually enjoyable to drink but at a price. I myslef by the Labrada lean body breakfast shakes (still a whole food replacement) I get the blueberry and cream flavor it is the best thing i have ever tastr you would never thi nk it was good for you. i like the B'fast ones cause they have a little higher calorie/carb count. try a box for the $50.00 it will cost you for 20 of them. I bet as long as you can afford them , you will never want to use anythi g else! should be able to do away with all your protein powders too!

[rap87]

Well, I agree that the Whey/Casein blend in meal replacements are much better than a pure Protein shake. What I considered a weight gainer is something that is High In Carbs, what makes Lean Body anything more than a leaner meal replacement as opposed to a meal replacement weight gainer higher in calories? I will go to the site, and for me it wouldn't be that expensive, I'm just wondering why this would be considered better than the meal replacement I'm on with less calories....