Thinking about entering the dark side... taking my time, would appreciate advice

[skinnynomore]

Yes, I am a noob when it comes to gear. I've been lurking the forums for several weeks now, reading outside material not specifically about any particular steroid, more about the biological changes that accompany injecting hormones. I'm fairly neurotic when it comes to stuff like this (adventurous... but neurotic), so I don't have a problem taking my time and really contemplating the consequences.

I compete in an endurance/strength sport, that requires flexibility, speed, strength, stamina, and endurance. I know that steroids are not a magic bullet, but think they would aid me in recovery and quality muscle gain. I'm not doing this to compete at the world stage, I'm considering it for personal reasons. I want to push myself further, and believe that a responsible attitude towards gear will aid me in my endeavors. This will be my final season competing, but most assuredly not the end of staying in shape. I don't see gear being a big part of my life after this, but lets save that discussion for later.

Anyways, I am very tall, and very skinny. I suffered from pneumonia in high school, and lost 15% of my body mass in a little over a month. It took me about a year of intense training afterwards just to be able to go for a run without stopping from an intense fit of a hacking cough. I eventually got back into shape, but have never been able to reach the level (body weight wise) where I was in high school, despite 6 years of training consisting of years of 25+ hours of exercise a week, 5000+ calories a day (of quality nutrition) and so forth.

As for my current fitness level, my legs look like they belong to somebody twice my size. When I flex you can see a lot of the individual muscles. I can do 500+ lunges in a row no problem, or do maybe 20 one-legged squats in a row either leg (ALL the way down mind you). My upper body is less developed, but I can still do 3-4 muscle-ups (for those of you who don't know what those are they're a pull up immediately followed by a dip, done on gymnasts rings). I cycle approximately 150 + miles a week as well. During the cycle my weightlifting will concentrate on pullups, squats, overhead squats, cleans (and jerks), snatches, deadlifts, rows, chest flies, variational pushups and of course, various ab exercises.

I'm not even considering gear without training my ass off and eating like a horse. I don't really need tons of pointers on those parts, but I'll be happy to accept any. Really I'm just looking for guidance and comments. If you feel the need to flame me I couldn't care less, go take that crap to somebody weaker.

Since I don't really know what to expect, I'm fine with keeping my goals transitional at this point. I could say how I want to gain 30 pounds of solid muscle, but really I'd be fine if I gained and kept 15 pounds over the course of the cycle (which I feel is reasonable) while increasing endurance, strength, all while keeping 75% (hopefully) of my gains.

I'm not going to list what I plan to do week by week, I'll devise that at a later date; I just want to run by the substances I'm considering.

OK, so as of now I want to run a combination of equipoise and test E. My biggest concern is HPTA shutdown, so I'm also thinking of running clomid during the cycle. Has anybody else ran clomid during cycle? Does it mess with gains? Does it keep your testes from shutting down? I also want to run propecia as well, to deal with the secondary male sexual side effects. Are there any dangers or undesirable side effects of running these concurrently during the cycle? Also, what is the best medication to deal with estrogenic side effects (if they begin to occur) based on cost? Nolvadex? Liquidex? Arimadex? Am I missing any?

Since I have years of intense training under my belt, I feel that my receptors will be primed for steroids. So I don't feel I need to go drastically over biological levels. The average male produces around 10 milligrams a day of test, 70 a week, so I figure keeping injections of testosterone around 200-250 milligrams a week will be appropriate. I'm also very interested in the benefits of EQ, particularly the increased appetite and lean muscle gains. I feel that personally this will be a particularly helpful steroid for me personally, and am considering running 300 milligrams a week for 14 weeks. It seems that this steroid takes a while to metabolize, due to the double bonds, so I'm comfortable running it a bit longer. It will take me a bit longer to work out my PCT, but since I'm planning on running clomid during the cycle hopefully it will be a light crash. Would running DBOL for the first two weeks be beneficial? Or will the gains be lost by the time the test and EQ kick in?

Oh, I'm 23, and my BMI is around 20.8 (I know its a worthless number but I don't want to give away ALL my personal details). Weight is just a number, I know that there are better signs to determine fitness. Such as flexibility, endurance, and strength to weight. I can squat a little over my body mass (I know some of you think this is weak, but when I used to not go down all the way-improper technique for my training- I could go up to over twice my weight, and I'm much stronger now), and I can snatch around 70% of my mass. I hope to increase my squat to around 1.5X, my snatch to 1X, and my overhead squat to 1X my weight.

Well, I feel this is enough for the fine members of this forum to digest and comment on for now. I'll be back in the coming weeks to update you all on my status. I haven't purchased the gear yet. I'll probably wait another 1 or 2 months before I do. Anyways, wish me luck and give me guidance please.

Peace y'all.

[lovbyts]

You do realize that around 200-250 milligrams a week will ONLY be replacing what you are producing now so why would you want to do that? Replace your natural with pharmaceutical?

Also being 23 you have a LOT more to loose than gain by running any cycles.

[skinnynomore]

I figured 200-250 will be about 3X the biological levels a week. Add the EQ and I thought it would be an appropriate dosage for a noob. I could bump it a little, but for a beginner I don't feel comfortable going too far past that. Maybe 400 milligrams a week tops for either.

Fair point about the age. The literature seems to say that testosterone production increases until about age 26, at which point it steadily declines the rest of your life. Meaning I know I'm in the best part of my life for testosterone production. It seems to me at the worst I'm cutting off a couple years of steady increases in testosterone. But more realistically I feel that I would only really be losing the few months of test production during the cycle and recovery. After which, testosterone should return to nearly natural levels, should it not? If you really feel that one cycle will ruin my hormone levels for the rest of my life I'm all ears, but it seems to me that plenty of the members probably started using around my age. If a more experienced user reads this and at one point was in a similar situation and later in life discovered they needed hormone replacement therapy as a direct result of steroid abuse please let me know. I wouldn't even consider running another cycle for a long time. It wouldn't even be worth it receptor wise.

Again, I'm not talking about ridiculous levels that might permanently mess up my hormones (at least I hope I'm not). I'm talking about a responsible one time use.

[lovbyts]

Im on 200mg a week to get me to NORMAL levels. Any you use will shut off your natural levels so 250mg would only put you a little over normal or at YOUR normal levels.

There are a LOT more negative side effects at running a young age. Please check the sticky messages above and they will spell out why. You are MUCH better at just learning to adjust your diet at your age and will get great gains. I realize you know a lot about diet but please take time to read our diet section. You may still learn a thing or two.

[skinnynomore]

Alright, I'll add them to my reading list for this week. Doesn't hurt to learn more...

So you use 200 mg/week to simply replace natural levels? Do you mean in addition to a cycle? Or that you needed replacement therapy due to decreased levels after a particularly nasty cycle? Does that mean you have permanent shutdown? Do you have a biologic or environmental reason this happened? Please clarify, I'm confused.

If I read and talk to enough people and feel that its not worth it I'm completely comfortable walking away and not using.

Thanks

[lovbyts]

It's nothing to do with a cycle, it's due to other life aspects and being 46 yrs old but a LOT of us are on HRT.

I was not at permanent shut down but permanent LOW levels so I/we have the choice of living with LOW levels or replacing it with pharmaceutical. Any test you use will shut down your natural levels so why use any if your levels are already OK unless you are going to up it past normal levels. Also at a young age if you use any you risk the chance of your natural levels shutting down and maybe permanently. Also you will fuse your growth plates and dont say you are done growing because you are NOT, maybe you wont get any taller but you are still growing.

[alpmaster]

Also being 23 you have a LOT more to loose than gain by running any cycles.

Yet if he was 24 we'd be fine with it. Funny how that 1 year gets everyone ready.

[romo6]

Yet if he was 24 we'd be fine with it. Funny how that 1 year gets everyone ready.

Good point.

[Aizen Sosuke]

Good advice by lovbyts.To the OP Welcome. I actually rather you waited until you are 25. And for a first cycle you don't want to run more than one compound and that would be testosterone. IMO at a minimum of 350-500mg depending on ester and such. Clomid during cycle is not recomended, you are better off using it at PCT with nolvadex and maybe an AI. In order to keep some testicular function during cycle we use HCG. IMO hold off on gear foe a couple of years, read and ask around here, and if you are willing to accept some critiquing in your diet you will learn a few things about it.

[c-Z]

W.e 23 is fine........ I don't like the 21... 22-23 ok getting there......

[alpmaster]

Haha yeah, you're a senior at 23, and at 24 you've passed the test and now steroids are safer and overall better at this age and up.

So please, don't **** yourself over by starting at 23, but go ahead at 24.

[c-Z]

i've been 5'6 since beginning of highschool. Every one is different. I'm 23. and no longer growing. Sooo.... W.e.

[Aizen Sosuke]

Everyone is different. I would get bloodwork and if your levels are still very good dont mess with them. Wait until they begin to decline at around 25 -26.

[ninesecz]

Alright, I'll add them to my reading list for this week. Doesn't hurt to learn more...

So you use 200 mg/week to simply replace natural levels? Do you mean in addition to a cycle? Or that you needed replacement therapy due to decreased levels after a particularly nasty cycle? Does that mean you have permanent shutdown? Do you have a biologic or environmental reason this happened? Please clarify, I'm confused.

If I read and talk to enough people and feel that its not worth it I'm completely comfortable walking away and not using.

Thanks

When you inject say 250mg a week you still have to take into acount that some of that is oil, some is lost so 250mg ends up being an actual 170mg or something like that.. On top of it you really can not just go mg for mg with your natty test. sounds weird but yes some people end up taking up to 250mg a week just to get their free test levels back to a normal humans range.. It is very weird... but the body metabolizes the test you inject different than the type secreted from your glands

[jasperhup]

you are doing too much sht to grow dude. you want to gain, spend a good 10 weeks (with maybe 1 week of backing off in there during those 10 weeks) and just go hard on lifting heavy weights like a powerlifter with body building assistance stuff. no cycling no nothing. you might gain the strength and muscle to act as a foundation after those 10 weeks.

[ninesecz]

you are doing too much sht to grow dude. you want to gain, spend a good 10 weeks (with maybe 1 week of backing off in there during those 10 weeks) and just go hard on lifting heavy weights like a powerlifter with body building assistance stuff. no cycling no nothing. you might gain the strength and muscle to act as a foundation after those 10 weeks.

You need to know about endurance sports before making a statement like that! You can not tell an athlete who trains for endurance to stop doing that for 10 weeks! 10 weeks of not training will take 20 weeks of training again to get back to where you were when you stopped! My brother has been an endurance athlete for 20+ years racing moto X Triathlons etc. etc. We stopped for 4 weeks one time and he went from top 5 in his group to like 50th! you can not just stop cycling and things like that for long periods of time to try and add weight..

[BG]

When you inject say 250mg a week you still have to take into acount that some of that is oil,

??? Maybe the molecular weight of the ester attached would make more sense???

[Phate]

??? Maybe the molecular weight of the ester attached would make more sense???

agreed, the reason the different estered tests(cyp, enth, decanate, undecanate, prop, etc..) have different injection protocols is because of the ester attached

the ester is actually the second part of the name, so for test cypionate, the ester is the cypionate, which is an organic molecule that the body must breakdown before it can process whatever the ester is attached to(in this case, testosterone)

the bigger the ester, the higher the percentage of total molecular weight it has when compared with the testosterone, so bigger ester=less total testosterone per certain amount=less injections needed due to longer absorption time


the oil is just the carrier or vessel that the testosterone is suspended in and it doesn't contribute anything to the actual cycle nor does it affect the testosterone or the ester, that's like saying that if you have two different sized pills that contain 25mg of dianabol, the bigger pill is going to actually contain less because it has more filler

[ted666]

You do realize that around 200-250 milligrams a week will ONLY be replacing what you are producing now so why would you want to do that? Replace your natural with pharmaceutical?

Also being 23 you have a LOT more to loose than gain by running any cycles.

really ......we produce 250mg naturally a week. that would be cool ,but we dont , your wrong about that.WE PRODUCE NATURALLY ABOUT 7-9mg A FULLY FUNCTIONING ENDOCRINE SYTEM

[lovbyts]

Yet if he was 24 we'd be fine with it. Funny how that 1 year gets everyone ready.

When did it become 24? It's 25 nad yeas a year here or there does make a difference.

[skinnynomore]

All good info.
I've been reading up some more and am becoming interested in IGF-1 LR3 and MGF post work out. If its true that they help in hyperplasia (new satellite cells), its possible that the new cells would aid in oxygen transport and lactic acid metabolism; thus aiding me in my sport. Cycles seem to be run short, but a cycle in the beginning of the season when my body is stressed the most might aid in lots of new cells; which could grow in size over the rest of the season with good diet. There is also the benefit that in a few years if I do decide to take steroids; the cells will still be around and may greatly increase the gains.

[MYWHEY]

The dark side? All I saw was light

[jasperhup]

You need to know about endurance sports before making a statement like that! You can not tell an athlete who trains for endurance to stop doing that for 10 weeks! 10 weeks of not training will take 20 weeks of training again to get back to where you were when you stopped! My brother has been an endurance athlete for 20+ years racing moto X Triathlons etc. etc. We stopped for 4 weeks one time and he went from top 5 in his group to like 50th! you can not just stop cycling and things like that for long periods of time to try and add weight..

i'm telling him what i think it will take for him to grow. if that isn't possible or desirable for him, you can bet your ass that going on cycle and then coming back off to the same super marathon training will NOT result in much in terms of permanent size increase.

[romo6]

The dark side? All I saw was light

Exactly,i hate when its called the dark side,seriously i have said this before anytime i see someone calling it that it pisses me off.

[sfour_tay]

id run the test at 500mg a week and the eq at 600mg a week

i just came off that cycle and was please witht he results. i didnt really have probelsm with bloat or any other sides. ran hcg the whole time and when i came off it was like butter.

gl

[skinnynomore]

I'm expecting Vader to come out and throw up some weight.