This site....

[loftros]

Let me begin by saying that I used to love reading this site to learn everything about steroids, but now it's just filled with the same bs I see on many boards. Here are some things I have learned over the years

1. Higher doses ALWAYS give better results(if everything else is up to par)

2. PCT is risky business.....if you're trying to recover from exogenous hormones then why would you introduce even more that have side effects in themselves? If you want to return your body to it's natural state, let it take course NATURALLY.

3. Cycling on and off. Why would you screw up your endocrine system, wait till you bring it back to normal and then do it again? Seems like you're hurting your body alot more than a more stable cruise dose.

4. Using before age 25. There is no magic age to start using so why is 21 or 23 too young for that matter? I know the vets here are trying to keep people safe, but not just admit that you don't know the best age to start?

5. Prop is NOT a faster acting ester than enan or cyp...it is just out of your system faster...I can back this up with sources

Just thought this board needed a little truth, I'd love to see the same parrots argue all of these.

[taiwanguy]

#1 Is undoubtedly true to a point where it's diminishing returns. ie Taking 2g of test isn't necessarily going to be any better for you than 1g or even 800/600, but then that depends what you mean by "if everything else is up to par" I suppose... (always gives more sides is probably more accurate for most things.)

#2 Somewhat agree with this. However, if you're getting bloodwork done and obviously not recovering, definitely wouldn't advise against using something to help you get back on track.

I'm a strong advocate of getting base bloodwork done (before you ever cycle, which I regret not getting) as well as during and post cycle bloodwork.

#3 Don't get what you're saying here. Why would you put something under stress, wait for it to repair, then stress it again versus keep it constantly stressed and potentially have more risk of breaking it? (Not clear on the cycles you are trying to compare here.)

#4 No comment on "best age"

#5 Would like to see sources please, because I am unaware

[Phate]

Let me begin by saying that I used to love reading this site to learn everything about steroids, but now it's just filled with the same bs I see on many boards. Here are some things I have learned over the years

1. Higher doses ALWAYS give better results(if everything else is up to par)
blanket statement, while a higher dose may lead to more results, then gain to side effect ratio is a much better way of determining dosage
2. PCT is risky business.....if you're trying to recover from exogenous hormones then why would you introduce even more that have side effects in themselves? If you want to return your body to it's natural state, let it take course NATURALLY.
i'm not even going to start on how ignorant this statement is, you obviously have no physiological/biological background
3. Cycling on and off. Why would you screw up your endocrine system, wait till you bring it back to normal and then do it again? Seems like you're hurting your body alot more than a more stable cruise dose.
LMAO, ridiculous for most of the people here that don't want to be on TRT
4. Using before age 25. There is no magic age to start using so why is 21 or 23 too young for that matter? I know the vets here are trying to keep people safe, but not just admit that you don't know the best age to start?
and you do i take it? again you obviously have no idea what you are talking about
5. Prop is NOT a faster acting ester than enan or cyp...it is just out of your system faster...I can back this up with sources
may i see these sources please?
Just thought this board needed a little truth, I'd love to see the same parrots argue all of these.

bold, this should be interesting

[BG]

Man your not a very good learner. Back to the drawing board.

[c-Z]

Let me begin by saying that I used to love reading this site to learn everything about steroids, but now it's just filled with the same bs I see on many boards. Here are some things I have learned over the years


Ill be the first to set your ass in line.
1. Higher doses ALWAYS give better results(if everything else is up to par)
Ofc if your diet is up to par you will yield better results with a higher dose. Doesn't mean it is proper though. Especially considering 75% of guys on here need to critique their diet.
2. PCT is risky business.....if you're trying to recover from exogenous hormones then why would you introduce even more that have side effects in themselves? If you want to return your body to it's natural state, let it take course NATURALLY.
When using AAS you are shutting your natty test down. You want to get it back up and running as quick as possible? is this a statement? Or a question. Because PCT has become basically just as important as the cycle itself. Unless you have info backing this. Take it elsewhere

3. Cycling on and off. Why would you screw up your endocrine system, wait till you bring it back to normal and then do it again? Seems like you're hurting your body alot more than a more stable cruise dose.
When cruising you are shutting your natty test down obviously for a longer period of time. This is where PCT comes into play into getting the natty test levels up and going again.

4. Using before age 25. There is no magic age to start using so why is 21 or 23 too young for that matter? I know the vets here are trying to keep people safe, but not just admit that you don't know the best age to start?
Everyone and their body is different. I will not lie. I started using at 22. And personally I agree with this statement. But 25 is one of them safe magic numbers I guess.

5. Prop is NOT a faster acting ester than enan or cyp...it is just out of your system faster...I can back this up with sources
Awaiting Sources. Are you saying NPP is not faster then deca as well? As well as Tren A is not faster then Tren E? Awaiting these sources.

Just thought this board needed a little truth, I'd love to see the same parrots argue all of these.

There is no truth behind you or your opinionated statements.

[Jbert22]

i also would like to see where your getting your prop info at. plus your saying "its just out of your system faster" doesnt that explain WHY it is faster acting?

[Bonaparte]

Man, this looks promising...so we should avoid PCT because it isn't natural, but massive amounts of hormones are?

[Tim_nd32]

[RANA]

I don't even know where to begin with this made up crap...

[Jbert22]

lol me either. we are all still waiting on him to state where he got his info from!!

[stevey_6t9]

lol me either. we are all still waiting on him to state where he got his info from!!

it came to him when he was high

[hunterwells]

anybody think he'll back up that prop statement?

[Jbert22]

lol at stevey!! and i garuntee he has no proof!! FOOL

[loftros]

bold, this should be interesting

Lol I expected nothing less from so called "vets" on this board.

Phate, have you ever cycled??

1. When I said results I meant results, I never mentioned side effects.....

2. Please tell me why taking hormones designed for female birth cycles are safer than taking NOTHING...haha you'd be surprised what my occupation ensues if you think I have no biological background.

3. Once you touch steroids you're risking HRT for life, so you're saying that sending your body through constant "puberty" is safer than a constant stream of hormones? lol

4. Please don't put words in my mouth, here I'm asking "vets" such as you to stop fabricating info. when you clearly have no clear answer.

5. Quote on PM by Emeric delczeg

"Testosterone proprinate: Mximal testosterone levels in the supraphysiological range where seen after 14 hours after injection.

Test enanthate or cyp: Maximal range where seen after 10 hours.

Reference from the book Testosterone Action Deficiency Substitution 2nd edition, Chapter 11 Comparative pharmacokinetics of testosteron esters page 333 and page 335.

So proprinate is not faster acting than E or C , it is faster out of your system."

[Jbert22]

what is your bio background loftros? i am no vet but some of the things u just stated make no sense to me

[Jbert22]

especially prop being out the system faster. duh it will be hince the shorter ester compared to cyp or E. therefore the hormone can be accesed by the body ALOT faster. basically what u are saying is theres no dif between simple and complex carbs. in other words

[loftros]

C-Z, yep you sure "set my ass in line"....lol

1. When i said everything else is up to par that included diet.....

2. Does it make you recover faster though? show me proof please....if you're trying to return to natural production I believe you shouldn't rely on experimental hormones. I never said this was fact by any means.

3. Read what I said to Phate. I believe it to be a sound theory bc we arent meant to go through puberty many times in our life.

4. Good, I'm just saying people shouldnt give out an age, they should just get growth plates checked/blood tests before they start.

5. Props to Emeric again "Actualy, after ijection of either E or C, testosterone concentrations in serum increased sharply and reached maximum levels, 4-5 times above basal. 8- 24 h after injection.

Prop levels below the normal range were observed following day 2 (57 h)."

I applaud taiwanguy for actually arguing/analyzing without having a tantrum

and BG, why say anything? lol you shouldnt have a high position here

[loftros]

what is your bio background loftros? i am no vet but some of the things u just stated make no sense to me

I'm currently in Med. School, Some of the things I posted were things I've learned from use over the years not facts. What don't you understand?

[loftros]

especially prop being out the system faster. duh it will be hince the shorter ester compared to cyp or E. therefore the hormone can be accesed by the body ALOT faster. basically what u are saying is theres no dif between simple and complex carbs. in other words

......you're comparing testosterone esters to the GI component of carbohydrates, they're kinda different.

[Jbert22]

well im not going to argue with you about pct (although i would recomend running a pct) or age because you are right about the number not meaning much but 25 is safe so thats why everyone on here goes with it. its the ester thing thats got me into this disagremetn with you.

[Jbert22]

and there is no diff. the body uses what it has available

[Vitruvian-Man]

2. Does it make you recover faster though? show me proof please....if you're trying to return to natural production I believe you shouldn't rely on experimental hormones. I never said this was fact by any means.

Bro, no one has to show you any "proof," if you've ever run a cycle w/out a PCT, you would realize how awful low-testosterone feels. And trust me, MOST don't recover so easily post cycle (yes there are exceptions, and some people are able to miraculous recover their HPTA w/out a PCT fairly swiftly.. but this is clearly not common.)

Without a PCT your body can take months to return to homeostasis (if it ever actually returns..), not to mention the psychological toll it takes on your body -- depression, lethargic 24/7, etc..

To other members:


PLEASE DON'T FEED THE TROLLS.

[Jbert22]

yes sir. sorry vitruvian.

[CaliPhotog]

In reference to Prop ester vs. E and C... I am not educated enough to be able to debate this issue but I am wondering why every person I have talked to that has run both E and P says that they can FEEL the Prop kicking in faster. They claim that strength, and sex drive increase much faster than when running E. Is this all in their heads, or is this whole different issue than what you are talking about?

[Hard.On]

what is this propaganda,
While statement 4 may be true.
all the rest are not, esp the prop,
who are your sources? Gym rats....

[Micki]

Deleted

[dec11]

i have been ify on pct since my third cycle, i mean from the point of this view, has it been heavily researched that using fertility drugs will 'save' us from crashing our natty systems? i knw i've recovered less and less each cycle and have taken the decision to cruise and blast due to the fact i know i wont discontinue using AAS. the only reason i knew of pct was this site or id neva of heard of it and i know alot of guys who are oblivious to the fact of it. not saying anything is right or wrong by this. also there are so many variables applied to diff ppl, is my hard recovery due to my age (34)? is it a steady decline after each cycle? do clomid/nolva work for everyone. point is, i dont think its possible to say for the individual

[jjredd]

someone must have been told they were too young to use haha

[Vitruvian-Man]

... Comon Boys... Do I really have to repeat myself?!

Clearly someone is ~18yrs/old and just got told he was too young to cycle..

Let's let it go.


PLEASE DON'T FEED THE TROLLS.

[breakbones]

Entrusting thread!

I would like to see other mods and vets comment; however, I'm not demeaning the knowledge of anyone, just want to see validated points concurred with statements and questions.

[Bertuzzi]

Let me begin by saying that I used to love reading this site to learn everything about steroids, but now it's just filled with the same bs I see on many boards. Here are some things I have learned over the years

1. Higher doses ALWAYS give better results(if everything else is up to par)Thanks for the advice... I'm gonna shoot 3 grams of test E everyday for 3 months and take 300mg of dbol everyday with it. That should be good for me based on what you're stating

2. PCT is risky business.....if you're trying to recover from exogenous hormones then why would you introduce even more that have side effects in themselves? If you want to return your body to it's natural state, let it take course NATURALLY. Before you give opinion and try to pass it off as fact... Do a cycle without PCT then follow it with a cycle with PCT tell me which one you feel better with

3. Cycling on and off. Why would you screw up your endocrine system, wait till you bring it back to normal and then do it again? Seems like you're hurting your body alot more than a more stable cruise dose. REALLY??? Dude, we're talking about steroids here, just taking them messes with our endocrine system. The purpose of cycling is reverse the sides that come from the use of aas. If you cruise the sides can stay.... One of those sides can be..... um..... what's that called, oh yeah... being sterile. I'll let you think about that for a while

4. Using before age 25. There is no magic age to start using so why is 21 or 23 too young for that matter? I know the vets here are trying to keep people safe, but not just admit that you don't know the best age to start? Ok MR.MEDICAL STUDENT here is the answer to this one.... I'm surprised you don't know this being in med school and obviously top of your class. Do a little research on Male sexual peak..... guess what, its between the ages of 16 and 23. What happens during this time? Your body is producing massive amounts of test. WHY? To develop your body... What happens if you interrupt this phase? Maybe nothing... do we know for sure.... NO why don't we know for sure.... Studies have never been done but..... studies that relate directly to this subject suggest that if you manipulate your test production during this time, you may not develop properly. I'm gonna stop right here and just say lets use some common sense. As stated you produce all this test at this age to develop, why would you mess with it. After you stop producing developing levels of test all your body does is produce enough to maintain what it has built. So its probably smarter and safer to introduce it now. Patients is a virtue. One more thing.... If you take AAS during your developing stage.... you WILL and you can argue it all you want right now but you'll see one day.... you WILL develop sexual dysfunction about 10 years before the average male does.... have fun with that. You'll love this since you yourself started cycling at 18 as stated in one of your previous posts.

5. Prop is NOT a faster acting ester than enan or cyp...it is just out of your system faster...I can back this up with sources No comment

Just thought this board needed a little truth, I'd love to see the same parrots argue all of these.

Thank you for showing me how much ignorance is truly out there.

I am editing this post just to say.... sometimes even the smartest and most educated experts can be wrong without proper research and understanding.... here's a quote to help understand what I mean by experts (top of their field) being wrong: "No one will need more than 637 kb of memory for a personal computer." ----- BILL GATES (1981) If you're not sure who Bill Gates is.... just google it. If you don't know what google is.... you're an idiot. This being said...... Good chance you don't know what google is.

[PT]

Let me begin by saying that I used to love reading this site to learn everything about steroids, but now it's just filled with the same bs I see on many boards. Here are some things I have learned over the years

1. Higher doses ALWAYS give better results(if everything else is up to par)

2. PCT is risky business.....if you're trying to recover from exogenous hormones then why would you introduce even more that have side effects in themselves? If you want to return your body to it's natural state, let it take course NATURALLY.

3. Cycling on and off. Why would you screw up your endocrine system, wait till you bring it back to normal and then do it again? Seems like you're hurting your body alot more than a more stable cruise dose.

4. Using before age 25. There is no magic age to start using so why is 21 or 23 too young for that matter? I know the vets here are trying to keep people safe, but not just admit that you don't know the best age to start?

5. Prop is NOT a faster acting ester than enan or cyp...it is just out of your system faster...I can back this up with sources

Just thought this board needed a little truth, I'd love to see the same parrots argue all of these.

this may very well be the worst post i have ever seen. please everyone, do not listen to someone this inexperianced and uneducated

[dezza6969]

pct is the lesser of the evils. try doing a cycle without pct and go through the crash effect and then come back and say you still want to recover 'naturally'. id call troll but you just sound like a self-important nob

[marcus300]

There is no need to try and educate this kid, its obvious is as escaped from hospital and hasn't took his medication in a few days, he will argue till his mum comes home so its pointless even replying,

Please dont feed the troll

[Crest]

don't really agree with 1,3,4,5 but do believe 2 has some truth

[bjohnson1968]

I truely believe that you can visit two different doctors or three or however many and get totally different diagnosis for the same issue. So to say your opinion (Loftros) is accurate does nothing for me. Me on the other hand being "new" to indulging in the world of ass prefer to get my advice from the more logical aspect like Phate and Marcus continuely provide!!!! Totally my choice and hopefully the choice of other "newbs"

You say you here the same thing on all these forums. Why do you think that is?????

[stevey_6t9]

i think this thread should be closed its getting old.

If the OP doesnt believe in PCT, oh well fuk him let him fuk himself up

if he believes more test is better.. oh well let him take more and get on TRT.

[soulstealer]

Let me begin by saying that I used to love reading this site to learn everything about steroids, but now it's just filled with the same bs I see on many boards. Here are some things I have learned over the years

1. Higher doses ALWAYS give better results(if everything else is up to par)
Absolutely True..... But wreckless as hell with the possible side effects that come with very high doses

2. PCT is risky business.....if you're trying to recover from exogenous hormones then why would you introduce even more that have side effects in themselves? If you want to return your body to it's natural state, let it take course NATURALLY. A totally valid argument agains the use of HCG during PCT however with the studies available on tamoxifens effect on LH and FSH your argument is unsound.

3. Cycling on and off. Why would you screw up your endocrine system, wait till you bring it back to normal and then do it again? Seems like you're hurting your body alot more than a more stable cruise dose. Valid and debatable... if your going to cycle after cycle year in and year out it might be more beneficial to just stay on... HOWEVER your hemocrit/cholesterol and liver enzyme levels need to be checked regularly and this by no means should be an excuse for the excessive use of oral steroids or insane doses of inj.

4. Using before age 25. There is no magic age to start using so why is 21 or 23 too young for that matter? I know the vets here are trying to keep people safe, but not just admit that you don't know the best age to start? There is no magic number... and 25 is not arbitrary its designed based on medical knowledge... your growth plates may not fuse until 23 in some cases and its better to be safe than sorry as your hormonal levels are still fluctuating.. Its the best advice we can give to someone so they dont **** them selves up in the long run....

5. Prop is NOT a faster acting ester than enan or cyp...it is just out of your system faster...I can back this up with sources I believe this to be true... the ester determines half life and active life not binding affinity... I dont have any studies to back this up currently but I will look

Just thought this board needed a little truth, I'd love to see the same parrots argue all of these.

Just figured I'd throw in my thoughts...

[c-Z]

Pulled off a highly reputable site:

Prop:
The Propionate ester is much faster acting (2-3 days) than Enathate or Cypionate, and thus requires a more frequent injection schedule such as every day or every other day in order to keep blood levels as stable as possible. The benefit to this however, is that the steroid can be cleared from the body much more quickly after use is discontinued, thus making it a more preferable choice for tested athletes. Some bodybuilders also claim that Propionate tends to induce far fewer estrogen related side effects such as bloat than do the other esters of this powerful hormone.

Test E
The Enathate ester of this drug makes its release into slow and therefore is requires injections to be less frequent than they would be if a bodybuilder using Propionate. Athletes using this steroid often find that a twice weekly injection schedule, such as Monday/Thursday, is very sufficient for maintaining steady blood levels of the hormone.
__________________________________________________ _

Now PCT. Since you haven't cycled because you obviously have no clue wtf your talking about:

Testosterone use will quickly shut down the body's natural production of the hormone, thus making a proper PCT plan essential for restoring the body's natural function and maintaining gains as best as possible after use of the steroid has been discontinued. At cycle's end, bodybuilders often choose to use a combination of Clomid, Tamoxifen for a period of 3-4wks in order to restore pituitary gland and testes operation quickly and effectively.

If you have ran any sort of cycle. And did no PCT. And then ran a cycle with PCT. You would see a great difference. Similar to as if you ran a test E and Test P cycle separate. You would notice which one is kicking in faster.
__________________________________________________ _

"Good, I'm just saying people shouldnt give out an age, they should just get growth plates checked/blood tests before they start."

No one wants to go to their doctor and say hey doc check this so i can cycle. Hell people are afraid to tell their doctors they are using. Therefore this won't happen. Once again 25 I do not agree with. And from doing a quick search and peaking threw sites. I prove myself correct and you correct on this one. Every site mentions male body growth plates done at 18 or before.

This was taken from a Pediatrics Expert....
"Predicting growth can be a little tricky. While it is true that once a growth plate has fused there will be no lengthening of that bone, not all the growth plates in the body fuse at the same time. Some bones, like the small bones of the wrist and feet, might fuse while other bones in the body still have open growth plates. Height will be determined primarily by the growth in the bones of the legs and the spine at this time. It is quite possible that the small bones in the wrist have closed while the growth plates in the legs are still open, and that would allow for continued increases in height. You wouldn't know for sure unless you looked at an x-ray of the legs.

That said, hand and wrist x-rays are a standard use as a predictor of skeletal maturity in children, so it may be that your son has finished growing. The growth plates in the knees generally close at about the same time as the ones in the wrist. The usual progression of fusion of growth plates is elbow first, then foot and ankle, then hand and wrist, then knee, then hip and pelvis, and last the shoulder and clavicle. It is possible that he has finished, however 14 would be quite early for a boy to stop growing, unless he has gone through puberty early. Most boys don't stop growing until about age 17. "
__________________________________________________ _


This isn't feeding trolls. No need to argue because he feels he has the correct answer. The world of steroids there is a lot unknown. There are a lot of myths and a lot of parrots. If he is coming from multiple sites he should be seeing similar information there as he sees here. Except some do things differently.. This is because the studies behind steroids... There really aren't a lot. That is the truth of the matter. We have very little to go off of.

But rather argue and say your a F*cking liar. How about go out on the net. Find proof. Bring it back. Argue your point.

You must remember too. Our earlier age professional bodybuilders who used steroids. Didn't grow up with all the PCT stuff we do have. So how exactly..... DID THEY DO IT?

As stated a lot is unknown in this world. We understand as much as we can, but what is truly truth and myth?

[soulstealer]

Peer reviewed study showing incomplete epiphyseal fusion in some cases until 27:

http://www.springerlink.com/content/eanyl0gjk05fdakp/

Book showing that regardless of the ester the effects of testosterone have an onset of less than 24h... the ester just determines the half life/active life and final weight of the product

http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&...nthate&f=false

have a nice day =P