50 Year Old Newbie has a couple of queries?

[Oucheeeeee]

Hi Folks,

I'm approaching 50 years old and am thinking of starting a course of Steroids to kick start my Quads into working again. I plan to do ONE course and no more.

I was a Sprinter and Football player (American Football - not soccer) and throughout my career, never needed to resort to steroids as I believe I am/was an Mesomorph and found it very easy to gain muscle and burn fat. I retired from Football aged 30 after winning the European Championships. There was no greater prize and, as I was coming to the end of my shelf life as a Running Back, moved on to pastures new.

Since the age of 16, I have had over 30 knee operations (osteochondritus dissicans?) and in 2004 had an autologous condracyte implant (they take a biopsy - grow your cells and then inject them back into the knee surface under a patch). The problem with that surgery, other than the fact that it didn't work, was my knee was completely imobile for 8 weeks during which time my prized and adored (by me and possibly my girlfriend) Quads had atrophied to what I considered to be chicken legs.

I had yet another wash out and clean up inside both knees 8 weeks ago at which time, my surgeon informed me that if I could get the inner part of the quads (the teardrop?) built up, it would be a massive benefit to my knee joint as that muscle plays a major role in stability and weight bearing of the knee joint (I have grade 4 arthritis on both weight bearing parts of the knee (so I'm told)).

OK - For the past 6 weeks, I have been down the gym 4 times per week, working as hard as I can (which probably isn't that hard as unchained exercises (leg extentions) really hurt my knees). Absolutely nothing. So right now I'm in a sort of viscous circle. I can't lift heavy weights for my quads as my knee joints are no good - but I need to lift heavy(ish) weights to get my quad muscles working again to help the knee joints.

Wow! - I just realised that was some pre-amble to my query......................

So, finally getting to the point, I have been given 12 capsules of 250mg Testosterone Enanthate (for deep intramuscle injection?) and told to jab twice a week for 6 weeks. Er........that's it. End of instruction manual.

I have a couple of concerns!

1) Have I gone straight in at the deep end? - Should I start slower using something less drastic? I'm not scared of needles as I required local anaesthetic in my knees before each game - (and that REALLY hurts)

2) Where should I jab - Would it help if I jab the muscle I'm most interested in developing or just in the Bum?

3) Should I take anything alongside to help with possible side effects (I just read the excellent side effects page on this website and it talked about a whole range of stuff to take alongside). Not sure where I could get these in the UK. I am aware of the need for increased protein/energy etc as I pretty much ate 7 meals a day when I trained many years ago (2 meals were just protein shakes).

4) Should I just bin the Testosterone and try and get hold of (for example Anavar) ? - Don't know how I would get hold of this in UK - probably just order from this website and pray that it gets through) - I do like the added fat loss and reduced side effects on the chart.

Sorry for the ramblings, maybe I should have just posted the queries at the top, but thought I needed to say why I was using etc.

Thanks for any/all help,

Rob
(Oucheeeeee)

[HADOUKEN!]

Lots of info here mate, seems like you need to do alot more research: http://forums.steroid.com/showthread.php?t=368656

[cherrydrpepper]

Hi Folks,

1) Have I gone straight in at the deep end? - Should I start slower using something less drastic? I'm not scared of needles as I required local anaesthetic in my knees before each game - (and that REALLY hurts)

2) Where should I jab - Would it help if I jab the muscle I'm most interested in developing or just in the Bum?

3) Should I take anything alongside to help with possible side effects (I just read the excellent side effects page on this website and it talked about a whole range of stuff to take alongside). Not sure where I could get these in the UK. I am aware of the need for increased protein/energy etc as I pretty much ate 7 meals a day when I trained many years ago (2 meals were just protein shakes).

4) Should I just bin the Testosterone and try and get hold of (for example Anavar) ? - Don't know how I would get hold of this in UK - probably just order from this website and pray that it gets through) - I do like the added fat loss and reduced side effects on the chart.

Sorry for the ramblings, maybe I should have just posted the queries at the top, but thought I needed to say why I was using etc.

Thanks for any/all help,

Rob
(Oucheeeeee)

1. Sounds like you have reservations. Get rid of them. God or whatever you believe in doesn't care if you want to make yourself stronger or look better with some gear.

2. Everyone is going to have different answers for this. I started out doing quads and found them to be painful and got an infection at one point. I now do shoulders only rotating the front, side, back of the shoulder. I have someone do this for me though so its easy. Some people enjoy glutes injects. Others will inject the pecs or maybe even the triceps and other spots. There is a thread around here about injecting. You will want to do hours of reading on all these different topics before you make a move. Here are some basic rules for injecting (disclaimer i have not done myself yet but have had people inject me)
A: Swab the area to inject with alcohol. Swab the stopper of the bottle. Allow these to dry completely (about 1 minute or more in my experience)
B: Press the pin in slowly. Back it out a little once it is in to see if you have hit a vein (blood will run out ). If you did start over with a new needle.
C: Inject the solution very slowly. The total time should be in the area of a 20 second count range depending on the amount.
D: Know what pin size to use. Glutes are 1.5 inch . Everywhere else including quads I would use a 1 inch.

3. You need to have nolva and clomi on hand for your post cycle. These are available at ar-r.com . If your nipples get sore or itchy, or if you get lumps under them during your cycle, these are signs of gyno. You will want to do a lot of reading to know what to do. I have a bottle of Letro for this; other people would handle it with a different chem.

4. OK there is an over 40 forum here that will give better advice. Please do not take my post and run with it without doing a lot of reading. At my age (28) a good cycle is 500 mg a week of testosterone ethanate for 12 weeks, split into two shots a week. I don't know if that changes with age so you will want to do a lot more reading.

[HADOUKEN!]

I found quads and delts to be the least painful for injecting, nicking a nerve is never fun though!

[MaNiCC]

This is a very informative read for aas users that are 35years+


You need to have a Pct, do not start any aas without the Pct compounds

I must admit i have very little knowledge about aas at your age but somebody will more knowledgeable will probably be along shortly, you said you was aware of dietary needs but i would suggest posting a diet up in the diet section for critique. Diet is key to progress, thats even without aas


What are your current stats?


Stats consist of

Age
Height
Weight
BF
Training experience
Cycle Experience

[AlphaGenetics]

Test e should be run for 12 weeks. I think your in a catch22. The added strength would put more stress on your knees. Your sex drive would go thru the roof though.

[Oucheeeeee]

Real glad I posted. And thanks for the (early) responses. Looks like the friend who got me the test - maybe could have passed along a little more info with it. But, I'm picking it up from the posts. Certainly doesn't sound like I should just start jabbing immediately (which WAS my plan).

So. I have postponed my start date for a couple of weeks whilst I try and figure out how to do this in best way.

However, I do have one nagging doubt from rading some of the posts that Hardoukin pointed me to.

In the past, I have ALWAYS used free weights in a sweat and sawdust gym. Heavy Heavy Heavy. Deadlifts/cleans/squats. Because of my arthritis in my knee joints, that IS NOT AN OPTION ANYMORE.

Can I get my quads working again just by 'Techno Gym Leg extension/leg curl' machines or would I just be wasting the effort?

I can try the injections anywhere (I used to have local anaesthetic injected directly into my knees before each game (by a qualified Doctor) and let me tell you - that ALWAYS hurt). I've never jabbed a steroid before but I'm hopeful it won't be even 10% of pain I had to go through just to suit up.

As for body shape now - Think of a 50 year old pro footballer with bad knees and you'll get the picture. 1.83m - between 100-130KG depending on time of year - Fat, but fairly well hidden by being big (I was always big). But probably 25% body fat.

Still reading - Thx

Rob

[HADOUKEN!]

What about cortisol shots or something less major as joint supplements? Tried any? Otherwise is it possible you need to have a doctor check them out by any chance? At the end of the day lets say you alternate quad injections however you on work your upper body, your quads won't grow and they'll be strained further as mentioned above due to the amount of weight being forced on them at such a fast rate.

I'd say play it safe, try see what you can do about getting the knees working a bit better

[cherrydrpepper]

Consider using knee wraps
Pyramid up in weight
Stretch before you start
Look at joint supplements namely glucosamine chondroitin, Cissus quadrangularis, Hyaluronic Acid and omega 3 supplements like fish oil and krill oil. EDIT: fyi I am taking glucosamine chondroitin and it seems to help a little. The other two I haven't ponied up the money for yet but I've had a GNC rep and Vitamin Shoppe rep swear that Cissus Quandragularis can help fix tendonitis and other joint issues, I have watched an interview with a former pro bodybuilder stating that Hyaluronic Acid is important for the joints.

There is a compound called Deca that is sometimes run with Testosterone to improve joint fluidity and function. Few people will recommend you run both for your first cycle though because if you have an adverse reaction you won't know which one did it for starters.

You have to tailor your lifts to your body. I have a partial rotator cuff tear from many years ago I never had surgery on. I do about 8 different stretches and motions that strengthen it 2-3 days a week. There are certain lifts I will never be able to go big on in all likelihood. I just keep the form tight and try to go up a rep or two or a few pounds as often as I can as long as the form is great.

[cobra305]

25 % bf is very high most recommend that it be below 15% before cycling. Higher bf% generally means more increased risk for sides. You should do some reading regarding pct as it plays a vital role in starting up your natural test production after cycle. At your age you may want to even look into hrt. you can go over to the diet section and work on your diet and start cardio to lower your bf%. Good luck do not rush into anything.

[AlphaGenetics]

Ill repeat myself, 6 weeks of test e is a waist of time and will do more bad then good. At your age you really need to be carefull and do everything by the book especially pct. Ressearch for a couple months before you even consider it. Try to get some info from Marcus300. He is your age and the most knowledgable person here. Take his advice over anyone else because probably 60% of the people in this forum dont know much, they just answer your question to get more posts.

[Oucheeeeee]

Guys (n' gals?),

All really good stuff and I'm picking up more and more as I read different sections on this site. I certainly won't do anything until understanding this PCT.

CherryDoc - Issue is with the condrocyte/bone on base of femur. I basically have 2 holes where the condrocyte has totally worn away and the bone has crumbled. So instead of having a pure/smooth base, I have a nasty worn out hole. When I was 16 and this first was diagnosed, they said my knee looked like someone had shot the base of my femur with a shotgun. There were little pellet sized holes all over the condrocyte. I was on Glucosamine and chondrites for years until my Knee Surgeon told me that wouldn't help what I had. I was given cortisone (again back in my football days) in my ankle and would never want it again as that ankle is permanently stiff. Is cortisol/cortisone the same thing?

I do stretch for 20 mins AFTER every session with emphasis to quads/hammies. I do a few stretches before hand but again, I believe what my Physio told me - Stretch a lot more AFTER a workout than before.

I think I'm going to try and redefine and simplify my queries as the more I read, the more I understand what an ambiguous load of drivvel I asked. I also think I'm going to hold fire on the test E until I fully understand what I'm playing with.

My concern is: If I do this cycle (see, I'm learning), I may be wasting my time as the amount of WEIGHT I can put through the quads is never going to be anywhere near what I need to put through the muscle to make any use of the test. Or am I misreading some of the pinned topics?

Here's what I want (if possible). I would like to be able to work my quads ONLY via machines using moderate weight (I'll lift as much as I possibly can but I don't expect that to be much compared to what I used to lift).

Leg extentions = I'm talking 15-20KG - full range - 3 secs up - hold -for 3 - 3 Secs down (6 x 10 reps individual legs - straight and toe out)
Leg Curls = 30-40KG - fulll range - 3 secs up - hold for 3 - 3 secs down (Just 3 x 10 - Bi lateral)

Now back in the day (20 years ago), I only used machines as a warmup for the proper HEAVY pyramid squat sessions. After one set of HEAVY, I'd take 5 mins to be able to even stand up. Actually, at the gym we used, we managed to persuade rhem to move the leg stations downstairs after a couple of guys had, lets say, lost their balance walking dowstairs after a session.

What I'm trying to say is.....Will I get any benefit from the test if I can't do this HEAVY work on my quads? I can work my right leg to exhaustion and get a burn for as long as I like by just slowing down or holding for longer, but on my left knee, the joint screams way before I can feel a burn, Recently, I have stopped pushing the right leg as I am concious that it looks so much bigger than my left,

It really is only the quads I want to work on. I can, and do occasionally, still work HEAVY on other body parts. Chest/Arms/Shoulders/abs. Although still using machines (no free weights in this gym) I can really push those if, and when, I want. I'm scared that if I do this TEST, I may grow the areas I don't need to grow which will put MORE stress on the knees in the long run.

So, I want a magic pill that will ONLY work on strengthening my Quads and Hammies. I know that isn't possible but, if I concentrate on the quads by doing as much as I humanly can 3 times a week (and do the diet) and lower the weights I use for upper body, will I be able to see any difference.

What I don't want to do is increase muscle mass everywhere EXCEPT in my quads, which will only exascerbate the problem.
An aas that would work on only what I train, and also reduce fat everywhere else would be just perfect. What have I just described. Would it be a combination of pills/jabs?

I'm getting the idea that just banging ahead with this test enan is probably not a good idea.

So glad I found this site today. I was about to nip in the bathroom and jab my thigh before heading off to gym before I got speaking with you guys.

Sincere thx

[thisbmine]

As someone pointed out, read these forums hard trying to track down marcus300.

But my 2cents, I dont see how AAS will benefit you. You cant lift big right now (due to pain, injuries etc) so I dont see the point. In my honest and limited opinion youd be better of doing lighter weights at a higher rep... Sort of like physio.

Personally Id be speaking to a doctor (perhaps in the physio section of a hospital) and finding out what the best course of action to take would be. Some personal trainers may have some experience, but MD is always better.

[Vettester]

Ditto on the doctor.

You should run a complete lab panel and make sure you have a clean bill of health. I'm 43 and on HRT. In your situation, I would seriously look at all the benefits available with a HRT program opposed to jumping into some Test cycle. You need to know your values (Total "T", Free "T", E2, LH/FSH, etc.) along with all the other panels associated to this before taking anything.

If you want to learn more about HRT, visit us over in the HRT section of this forum.

[cherrydrpepper]

You will want to keep reading and doing research to see what is realistic.

You mention leg extensions for your quads. Please watch this video it is going to help you with any knee problems immensely.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=74QB-UQCm88

I have a slight tweak in my left knee and do leg extensions the way this trainer says to.

Before I say this I need to tell you I have never used HGH (human growth hormone). I have heard some stories of them doing amazing things for joint problems. After all a lot of baseball and football guys use them. That said they are expensive as heck and don't start really working a lot until 8 months or more from what I have read. I personally would see a doctor and find out about HGH; if he said it would help I would not pay doctor prices if you know what I mean. If you do not have several grand disposable income I would not even bother looking at this route.

wish you all the best

[cherrydrpepper]

This is an article talking about collagen, the joints and how aas affects them. I am copying / pasting the good part that might help.

Disclaimers: I got this from a guy's post on here who stole it from another website. I don't have the link offhand but if anyone really cares i'll dig around and find it. I have only run test e so far so I can only give experiences from that although my lifting buddy runs test e and deca so I can give experiences on what i have seen there. I am not advocating that you run any of these just giving you some more info to make some decisions with.

ARTICLE:
Deca, Equipoise, Anavar, and Primobolan will ALL increase skeletal muscle while at the same time dramatically increase collagen syn and bone mass and density, leaving you with a substantially reduced chance of becoming injured than if you choose to use AAS like sus, cyp, or enth.

While testosterone will increase bone mass and density, even at supra-physiological levels, the result is weaker tendons due to inhibition of collagen syn.

To plan a cycle where the goal is to increase skeletal muscle mass/strength while at the same time increase joint/tendon/ligament strength, enough to keep up with the dramatic increase in skeletal muscle, you must choose drugs like Eq, Deca, Anavar, or Primo as the base of your cycle. Testosterone and its esters can be added to your cycle to keep levels within a 'normal' physiological range (ie, 100-200 mg/wk) but must not go above this. Since drugs like eq, deca, anavar and primo will reduce endogenous, natural levels of test, these levels may be maintained with exogenous test in the 100-200 mg/wk range. Test at this dose will not inhibit collagen syn, but paradoxically, will help increase it. It is when exogenous testosterone is used > 200 mg/wk that collagen syn is inhibited.

Deca @ 3 mg/kg a week(about 270 mg/wk for a 200 lb male) will increase procollagen III levels by 270% by week 2. Procollagen III is a primary indicator used to determine the rate of collagen syn. As you can see, deca is a very good drug at giving you everything you want -- an increase in collagen syn, an increase in skeletal muscle, and increases in bone mass and density. The one thing it does not give you is wood.

Primobolan, @ 5 mg/kg, will increase collagen synthesis by roughly 180% -- less than deca and equipoise but still substantial.

Equipoise @ 3 mg/kg will increase procollagen III by approximately 340% -- slightly better than deca.

Oxandrolone has over a hundred studies documenting its effectiveness at treating patients needing rapid increases in collagen syn to enhance healing.

These drugs have longer half-lives than most other AAS, so this should be considered when timing your post cycle clomid use. Here they are:

Deca: 15 days Equipoise: 14 days Primobolan: 10.5 days

Anavar has a half-life of only 8 hours so it should not pose a problem.

GH is probably the most remarkable drug at increasing collagen synthesis. It increases collagen syn in a dose dependant manner -- the more you use, the more you will increase collagen syn. It has also demonstrated this ability in short and long term studies. From what I've read, hGH at 6 iu/day increased the collagen deposition rate by around 250% in damaged collagen structures. This result indicates that the increased biomechanical strength of wounds to collagen structures treated with biosynthetic human growth hormone was produced by an increased deposition of collagen in the collagen structures.

Eq, primo, anavar, and deca are all good -- they increase several biomakers of collagen syn -- ie, type III, II, I, procollagen markers. GH just seems to do so most dramatically.

Use of any of these drugs @ supra-physiological levels with a maintenance dose of test will increase collagen syn while at the same time increase skeletal muscle mass. Skeletal muscle mass gains will not be as dramatic as with large testosterone doses but you have to weigh the risk/reward basis for yourself. Also, these drugs do not satisfy the libido like testosterone, but that is not the point of this thread. It is only to demonstrate that you can increase skeletal muscle and collagen syn at the same time with certain AAS -- the decision is up to you.

[thisbmine]

Cherry - wow above and beyond the call of duty again (hence added to ur rep).

PS whats with all the youtube vids you post? Do you watch them for better techniques, tips, etc? You just seem to have the youtube links at your disposal. Am I missing out on something? *paranoid*

[hektikk]

Hi Folks,

I'm approaching 50 years old and am thinking of starting a course of Steroids to kick start my Quads into working again. I plan to do ONE course and no more.

I was a Sprinter and Football player (American Football - not soccer) and throughout my career, never needed to resort to steroids as I believe I am/was an Mesomorph and found it very easy to gain muscle and burn fat. I retired from Football aged 30 after winning the European Championships. There was no greater prize and, as I was coming to the end of my shelf life as a Running Back, moved on to pastures new.

Since the age of 16, I have had over 30 knee operations (osteochondritus dissicans?) and in 2004 had an autologous condracyte implant (they take a biopsy - grow your cells and then inject them back into the knee surface under a patch). The problem with that surgery, other than the fact that it didn't work, was my knee was completely imobile for 8 weeks during which time my prized and adored (by me and possibly my girlfriend) Quads had atrophied to what I considered to be chicken legs.

I had yet another wash out and clean up inside both knees 8 weeks ago at which time, my surgeon informed me that if I could get the inner part of the quads (the teardrop?) built up, it would be a massive benefit to my knee joint as that muscle plays a major role in stability and weight bearing of the knee joint (I have grade 4 arthritis on both weight bearing parts of the knee (so I'm told)).

OK - For the past 6 weeks, I have been down the gym 4 times per week, working as hard as I can (which probably isn't that hard as unchained exercises (leg extentions) really hurt my knees). Absolutely nothing. So right now I'm in a sort of viscous circle. I can't lift heavy weights for my quads as my knee joints are no good - but I need to lift heavy(ish) weights to get my quad muscles working again to help the knee joints.

Wow! - I just realised that was some pre-amble to my query......................

So, finally getting to the point, I have been given 12 capsules of 250mg Testosterone Enanthate (for deep intramuscle injection?) and told to jab twice a week for 6 weeks. Er........that's it. End of instruction manual.

I have a couple of concerns!

1) Have I gone straight in at the deep end? - Should I start slower using something less drastic? I'm not scared of needles as I required local anaesthetic in my knees before each game - (and that REALLY hurts)

2) Where should I jab - Would it help if I jab the muscle I'm most interested in developing or just in the Bum?

3) Should I take anything alongside to help with possible side effects (I just read the excellent side effects page on this website and it talked about a whole range of stuff to take alongside). Not sure where I could get these in the UK. I am aware of the need for increased protein/energy etc as I pretty much ate 7 meals a day when I trained many years ago (2 meals were just protein shakes).

4) Should I just bin the Testosterone and try and get hold of (for example Anavar) ? - Don't know how I would get hold of this in UK - probably just order from this website and pray that it gets through) - I do like the added fat loss and reduced side effects on the chart.

Sorry for the ramblings, maybe I should have just posted the queries at the top, but thought I needed to say why I was using etc.

Thanks for any/all help,

Rob
(Oucheeeeee)

edit: dun wanna be banned, but i got quoted

[Matt]

please dont do the bolded, i wish i coulda pm'ed u, but i cant

Why would you want to pm him??

[hektikk]

Why would you want to pm him??

i thought im not allowed to discourage the website or something cos they sponser this site

[cherrydrpepper]

Cherry - wow above and beyond the call of duty again (hence added to ur rep).

PS whats with all the youtube vids you post? Do you watch them for better techniques, tips, etc? You just seem to have the youtube links at your disposal. Am I missing out on something? *paranoid*

Thanks man.

I am a youtube fanatic, mainly for workout music and workout videos at the moment.

There is almost always room for improvement. I have watched videos on youtube about squat form 20+ times to give an example. Yesterday I'm in the gym and a young power lifter I know walks over and we start talking. Convo goes like this:

HIM: "Hey I just have to point something out you aren't coming down low enough. Its gotta be parallel to the floor with your glutes. We wouldn't even count that in a competition no offense"

ME: "Oh ok thanks man I will try that. Hey do you point your toes slightly out?"

HIM: "Yeah and I keep my feet shoulder width apart. Back straight at all times. Tighten the midsection. Shoulders back chest out."
(In workout books this is called activating the core)

ME: "I'm really worried about injuring a knee. I heard you don't want to have your knee go farther forward than your toe what do you think and you want to drive up from the heels?"

HIM: "Yeah I always drive up from the heels. The thing about injuries is that they usually hurt the wrong way a little at first. If that happens you back off and take a break from the exercise. Go back and check your form. Some people say man up and just do it - f that. That is how people get hurt really bad."

So anyway my opinion is theres almost always room for improvement even when you have been doing something over and over. Sometimes especially then even.

[Times Roman]

For knees / joints I recommend MSM somewhere in the neighborhood of 5 - 10gms/day depending on severity and body size. Bulk powder, skip the caps. The effects are subtle, and after several weeks, it may occur to you that some of your joint pain is no longer present. I ran distance in the military and blew out my knees several times. Been on the stuff 12 years with no thoughts of coming off. Definately worth a look into, but allow a couple of months before you evaluate, and no less than 5 gms / day.