Need *referential* material on use of Anastrozole [Liquidex /Arimidex] on men.

[forrest_and_trees]

I'm currently working with my doctor to address my ridiculously high Estradiol numbers. [167] Obviously I need an AI and for the past couple months, I've been using an OTC herbal-based AI, which clearly isn't getting the job done based on my recent test results. So now I need to move on to the "industrial strength" stuff. I mentioned Arimidex to him, which is the same as Liquidex, [official name is Anastrozole]. Personally, he has no experience with it and tried looking it up in his drug reference guide however, all it mentioned was it's original use as an Estrogen blocker for *women* recovering from breast cancer.

I know it's frequently used as an AI for men, however I need some referential material to provide him, so he'll be OK with prescribing it for my use. Anything along the lines of a Clinical Trial, Medical Study or Report on Anastrozole/Liquiidex/Arimidex used as an AI for men would be ideal. I've done some searching of my own on Google and all I came up with are clinical trials in men over 60 or men with breast cancer or other non-referential material.

At the very least, can you recommend a more widely accepted alternative "industrial strength" prescription AI? Preferably something I can get from my local pharmacy as opposed to something that is only available online. I need to get those numbers down and want to start taking something as soon as possible.

Thanks much! And as always, any and all input is greatly appreciated!

[pittbulldad]

if you look at the write up on Arimidex it says that .5 to 1mg/day will reduce your levels to about half.. so thats a good place to start looking..

i'm currently taking 1.5mg EOD of arimidex for elevated estradiol/estrogen levels

[forrest_and_trees]

Thanks PD, I too have seen a number of good suggestions on dosage and cycling however, I need more "official" medical based material from a reputable source that I can refer to my doctor so he'll feel OK about prescribing it to me. He's not about to give me some drug just because I ask for it without feeling comfortable it's the proper medication for my needs. Not to mention, I'm sure there are certain liability concerns he may have.

[PPC]

Thanks PD, I too have seen a number of good suggestions on dosage and cycling however, I need more "official" medical based material from a reputable source that I can refer to my doctor so he'll feel OK about prescribing it to me. He's not about to give me some drug just because I ask for it without feeling comfortable it's the proper medication for my needs. Not to mention, I'm sure there are certain liability concerns he may have.

I hope somebody can come up with something for you but I have my doubts.

Using arimidex to control E2 in a trt protocol is an off label use. You can see plenty of studies on it's use on women after breast cancer etc but most Doc's who understand trt just know it works. They see serum E2 levels come back into line and hear from their patients about how much better they feel without female levels of estrogen.

Many trt docs only worry about E2 once it surpasses 50. But Docs who really know their stuff will watch it and ask about symptoms well before that.

None of this will convince your Doc. You might need to take control of this into your own capable hands. You won't be alone.

You could always provide him With Dr Crisler's TRT paper.

[Vettester]

Forrest, I'm going to chime in a little on this one ...

Somewhere about a month ago we all pooled our thoughts on this subject for you, i.e., your thread http://forums.steroid.com/showthread.php?t=432980

There was also another thread that had a lot of similar information. When I asked you about doing the Adex, your response to me was that you don't know me from Adam and basically you're going to do a lot more research and talking with the doc.

I'm just confused with your strategy, Forest. You don't need to know me, that's fine, but I presume you joined this forum to ascertain as much information as possible to make the best decisions. 99% of seasoned HRT vets will tell you to take some form of AI while on HRT, especially with high BF. All of that is predicated on your E2 levels, but this doctor of yours could only tell you that your E2 was "OK" according to your other thread.

The problem now is you've got the highest E2 levels that I've ever seen posted here, but the real problem beyond that is that you're having to do your doctor's homework. What the hell did he go to med school for? To get guys like you to pay him well and do his research on stuff that he has no clue about? So just for the record tell the doc that his Schwartz crap sucks, and he can probably start getting milk out of you real soon if someone doesn't figure out what to do.

Best of luck!

[tubs]

it would be easier to treat yourself then teach him - jmo

[forrest_and_trees]

PPC, Thanks for the suggestion, I did some digging around in Dr. Crisler's site and added what I found to the pile. Plus there's lots of good stuff from a "big picture" perspective.

Vetteman, I'm really glad you chimed in, I was just about to PM you. My apologies about the "not knowing you from Adam" comment as it was not in reference to your suggestions, but that you seemed to be getting agitated with me for asking around rather than just following your advice. I just needed some second and third opinions as well as I was still trying to get a grasp on things. You were clearly right and certainly know your stuff. Unfortunately at the time *I* didn't have all the answers to the questions you were asking. Now I do *and* I have a much better understanding of the whole mess; though there's still *TONS* for me to learn.

While I agree, it would be nice if my Doc were to do the research on his own. He's been *more* than generous to me so far from the standpoint of taking me on a cash basis, since I have no insurance, as well as giving me months worth of free samples for some very expensive meds; all while giving me a break on fees and test costs. So I cant really complain too much about having to do the homework. Besides, I like being able to know about this stuff myself. Finding *any* doctor who's willing to work with you on it seems to be a challenge. For that matter, the first doctor I approached about this literally laughed at me for suggesting I had low T and I practically had to beg the second doctor just to give me the test. So by the time I found my current doctor I was just grateful I had someone who would take me seriously.

I hope that clears it up some and there are no hard feelings. I'm here now, asking for your help and the help of others. I really feel like I'm finally getting close to an answer that's eluded me for some time now and I'm not about to turn back.

In the end, if I cant get my doctor to write the script for me, I'll have to resort to taking care of it on my own. But I don't quite think I'm at that point just yet.

P.S. I liked your last comment about giving milk. LOL ...I may have to use it next time I see him.

[Vettester]

Forest, no apologies needed. If I came off agitated it was only because I could see a lot of this coming, and I truly don't want to see you or anyone getting sick or experiencing unnecessary sides with their TRT program. I've been through the gauntlet with a few doctors, so I tend to get a little critical when I see a patient (such as yourself) posting about their E2 going through the ceiling. I've also seen the other side where guys are told to take a boatload of AI, then 3 or 4 weeks later they're ready to drop.

Hopefully your doc can get on board with you on this stuff and then he could just cut you a script on the spot. Truthfully, I like pharmacy grade Anastrozole compared to research grade Liquidex, but that's just my preference.

Lastly, whether the doc writes you a script or you have to go rogue with the AI, don't feel that you will have to drop it all in a big hurry. It's going to take a little time, and your doc will need to run frequent BW labs to see how you're responding and where to keep your dosages at.

[eregitano]

Forest, no apologies needed. If I came off agitated it was only because I could see a lot of this coming, and I truly don't want to see you or anyone getting sick or experiencing unnecessary sides with their TRT program. I've been through the gauntlet with a few doctors, so I tend to get a little critical when I see a patient (such as yourself) posting about their E2 going through the ceiling. I've also seen the other side where guys are told to take a boatload of AI, then 3 or 4 weeks later they're ready to drop.

Hopefully your doc can get on board with you on this stuff and then he could just cut you a script on the spot. Truthfully, I like pharmacy grade Anastrozole compared to research grade Liquidex, but that's just my preference.

Lastly, whether the doc writes you a script or you have to go rogue with the AI, don't feel that you will have to drop it all in a big hurry. It's going to take a little time, and your doc will need to run frequent BW labs to see how you're responding and where to keep your dosages at.

do you run both HGC and Armidex with your TRT? If so why do you run both and what is your typical protocol for adding them into the routine? Thanks.

[Vettester]

do you run both HGC and Armidex with your TRT? If so why do you run both and what is your typical protocol for adding them into the routine? Thanks.

If you can start a new thread, I'll go over it with you, or hold off just a bit, because I'm going to start a thread here pretty soon outlying my program ... This way we don't hijack Forest.

[forrest_and_trees]

Well it's been almost a week since I got my test results back and still no script from my Doc; who's office reassures me he's got my file on his desk and plans to get back to me. So I went ahead and forwarded him all the docs I could find to help build my case for Arimidex. Truth be told, what I found was not ideal so this should be the acid-test to see just how progressive my doctor is and how willing he is to work with me. I've got my fingers crossed as I'd much rather work *with* him on this as opposed to going it alone. I'll be sure to follow with whatever I hear.

Wish me luck!

[Vettester]

May the force be with you! Keep us posted on how he responds ... Should be interesting.

[w8lifter]

Read this study. Even though it deals with gyno, it shows that anastrozole will effectively reduce estrogen in men who are on trt:

http://www.nature.com/ijir/journal/v.../3901154a.html


Another source (note the concluding sentence of the paper):

http://www.nature.com/ijir/journal/v.../3901154a.html

Third source:

"Testosterone for Life" by Abraham Morgentaler (Harvard Professor)--this book can be easily downloaded from the internet. Check the section that deals with testosterone treatments.

[forrest_and_trees]

Hallelujah! I guess it pays to be persistent.

After just sending over all the reference material I came up with, I got a call from my Dr. today. He informed me he spoke with his pharmaceutical rep and asked what he recommended for a patient on TRT with high E, and you'll never guess what the rep told him... Arimidex! Who'd of thought?!

I was actually glad to hear my doctor come back to me with the exact same recommendation as I made just last week but from a different source. It felt good to be validated. And of course a huge thanks goes out to all of you, without whom, It would have been much more of a challenge. And *yes* Vetteman, you were right all along.

So he's gone ahead and sent my script to the pharmacy and I'm just waiting to hear from them. In the mean time, I've been thinking about what my dosages should be. I'm think .25 every other day for the first week and then bump it to .5? Then get my Estradiol level check again in a month? Does that sound about right?

I'm expecting this is likely to be an on-going regular practice for me, rather than just cycling. That said is there any point in speculating what the dosages and frequency should be before I get my next results back?

During my research, I did come across a number of references to Arimidex actually *reversing* low T once E levels are brought in line and that some patients are able to resume normal T production naturally. Not that I'm expecting miracles here, but that would be a nice added bonus. That said, the studies did say continued blood tests on a fairly regular basis would be necessary as well as the occasional cycling with Arimidex to keep the E levels in line. Anyone here have first hand experience with that?

On a side note, I found it a little amusing that I was actually making dosage recommendations to my Dr. when we talked. He was suggesting 1mg daily and that's when I said, .25 EOD wold be a good start and that gradually reducing E levels would be preferable, to prevent crashing. To which he agreed of course. It feels good to be informed.

Thanks again all!

P.S. w8lifter, thanks for the recommendations. Sounds like great info, I fully intend on reviewing it.

[Vettester]

Forest, good job!!!!

I totally agree with your dosage protocol. Start with the .25mg eod, see how you react to it. Bump it to .50 from there. I would run BW in 6 weeks myself. If you need to increase it, I would suggest going no more than 2.0mg per week. It may take a few months to get things balanced out, but that's OK.

[PPC]

Hallelujah! I guess it pays to be persistent.

After just sending over all the reference material I came up with, I got a call from my Dr. today. He informed me he spoke with his pharmaceutical rep and asked what he recommended for a patient on TRT with high E, and you'll never guess what the rep told him... Arimidex! Who'd of thought?!

I was actually glad to hear my doctor come back to me with the exact same recommendation as I made just last week but from a different source. It felt good to be validated. And of course a huge thanks goes out to all of you, without whom, It would have been much more of a challenge. And *yes* Vetteman, you were right all along.

So he's gone ahead and sent my script to the pharmacy and I'm just waiting to hear from them. In the mean time, I've been thinking about what my dosages should be. I'm think .25 every other day for the first week and then bump it to .5? Then get my Estradiol level check again in a month? Does that sound about right?

I'm expecting this is likely to be an on-going regular practice for me, rather than just cycling. That said is there any point in speculating what the dosages and frequency should be before I get my next results back?

During my research, I did come across a number of references to Arimidex actually *reversing* low T once E levels are brought in line and that some patients are able to resume normal T production naturally. Not that I'm expecting miracles here, but that would be a nice added bonus. That said, the studies did say continued blood tests on a fairly regular basis would be necessary as well as the occasional cycling with Arimidex to keep the E levels in line. Anyone here every have fist hand experience with that?

On a side note, I found it a little amusing that I was actually making dosage recommendations to my Dr. when we talked. He was suggesting 1mg daily and that's when I said, .25 EOD wold be a good start and that gradually reducing E levels would be preferable, to prevent crashing. To which he agreed of course. It feels good to be informed.

Thanks again all!

P.S. w8lifter, thanks for the recommendations. Sounds like great info, I fully intend on reviewing it.

Excellent news Forrest,

I have some experience to share regarding my husband. He used arimidex alone for almost a full year alone before starting trt since his E2 level was 38 when first tested. We aimed to get it down to between 20-25.

This did help in many areas, actually it accelerated weight loss, helped his moods and restored sexual function and more mildly libido, but it did not raise T levels anywhere near high enough. My husband's free T was around 8 when he finally decided to start TRT.

Maybe an AI would work a lot better for raising T to optimum levels in younger guys since my husband is now 54.

[forrest_and_trees]

Wow... the euphoria didn't last long. I called the pharmacy to see if my script of Arimidex was ready. Now I'd heard it's not cheap and even my Doc mentioned the price telling me that I could choose between that and "Novadex". Since everything I'd heard about was in reference to Arimidex I asked the price. He told me it was $7 a tab which is obviously not cheap however, since I'm only going to be using .25 a tab EOD, it seemed reasonable.

Well after talking to the pharmacy, they quoted me $210 for FIFTEEN TABS! WTF?! That's *twice* what I had expected to pay and that's *with* my club member discount!!! Seriously, WTF?!

So now I'm not so excited nor am I in a big hurry to go pick up my script. Talk about taking the wind out of my sails. So I guess the next question is, how good is Novadex compared to Arimidex and what's the expected price? Is it worth settling for or should I just suck it up, shut up and pay for the Arimidex and be greatful?

I knew Liquidex was roughly $50+ an order, which I thought was expensive. ...Now I'm not so sure it's a bad deal after all.

What to do?

[n00bs]

I wouldnt turn to arimidex straight away..

There is obviously a reason for your high e2..

Have you at least had a LFT test done? Hormones are metabolised in the liver and if it isnt funcitoing properly this will lead to oestrogen dominance and then drag your Test down as well...


Please explore all possible options before heading over to arimidex to band aid a problem for the moment...

Thats not to say you dont need arimidex i am simply stating there are other possible causes first and they should be addressed first and foremost...


Poisslby advise your Dr on Dr Johns protocol for TRT.

http://www.allthingsmale.com/word_docs/TRT.doc


e2 in checkis a must but it is nice to know why it isnt before you treat it...

[n00bs]

if you look at the write up on Arimidex it says that .5 to 1mg/day will reduce your levels to about half.. so thats a good place to start looking..

i'm currently taking 1.5mg EOD of arimidex for elevated estradiol/estrogen levels

Holy shit that is alot of ADEX! but if you need it you need it..

0.25mg is the general EOD for most people.. Any more for some and it will base line their e2 and that is worse then having high e2! The wrist pain it feels like sandpaper in your joints no sex drive no sleep.. Its terrible..

[forrest_and_trees]

Well I sucked it up after all and just paid the price for the Arimidex. I figure by quartering the tabs and taking one every other day it works out to about $50.00 a month which is actually in line with the Liquidex.

So my next question is, how long is it likely to be before I begin to feel any difference? Are we talking a week or two or should it begin with in the first few days?