Thoughts on Tren

[JBarron]

I'm currently doing pct for my first cycle which was prop 150mg EOD 12 weeks. I got decent gains from it and lost a fair amount of bodyfat. Went from 169lbs 10% bodyfat to 178lbs 8% bodyfat.

No sides what so ever everything went pretty smooth, except for the first 7 weeks I was in agonizing pain from the prop, finally started mixing it with sterile grapeseed oil and this eliminated the pain 100%, I then was able to start training more intense, gains came then.

ANyways, I'm evaluating my next cycle which I will probably start in about 2-3 months after pct. I really want to pack on the mass and get to around 190-195, and I've been reading alot about tren lately and would be interested in running it next cycle, along with test prop.

Just wandering what everyones opinions are, should I just run another test prop cycle since it is only my second cycle, or would I be ready for tren?

[marcus300]

Your right you aren't ready for tren yet, it can be a harsh compound and should only be used by experienced users. If you had good solid gains form your first cycle why not just duplicate it but add an oral.

[gymfu]

I've never heard of the grape seed oil??? cool, how much do you mix it with.

By the way I was told the same thing about tren too.

How far are you into your pct? Have you held your gains?????

[AlphaGenetics]

I would go prop only. Im on my 6th cycle and have ran tren before. It took forever to recover from tren not to mention all the unwanted sides I got from it.

[JBarron]

Your right you aren't ready for tren yet, it can be a harsh compound and should only be used by experienced users. If you had good solid gains form your first cycle why not just duplicate it but add an oral.

Pretty much all I needed to hear.

I've never heard of the grape seed oil??? cool, how much do you mix it with.

By the way I was told the same thing about tren too.

How far are you into your pct? Have you held your gains?????

Yeah grapeseed oil completely eliminated the prop pain, I mixed .1cc GSO with 1cc Prop.

Here's a link to my pct thread, so far pct has been great, and I've held onto gains.
http://forums.steroid.com/showthread.php?t=437774

I would go prop only. Im on my 6th cycle and have ran tren before. It took forever to recover from tren not to mention all the unwanted sides I got from it.

yeah I've read about alot of the sides, tren cough, nightsweats, sleeplessness, loss of cardiovascular stamina lol, etc..

Marcus300 kind of hit on the point I was thinking, I made good gains on prop, so stick to it.

[Knockout_Power]

Pretty much all I needed to hear.

Marcus300 kind of hit on the point I was thinking, I made good gains on prop, so stick to it.

you know what, its so friggen nice to see someone who asks for an opinion and then takes the advice. You are really going to get a lot from your future cycling taking things in stride like this rather than trying some rediculous stack for your second cycle... my first 2 cycle were test only without an oral and the results were great.

If this 2nd cycle is geared more towards mass gain then I would consider switching to test E or C for less injections and combined with an oral you should get really nice gains on a 10 or 12 week cycle. Prop will also work but the frequent pinning is always a pain.

Congrats on getting as lean as you did first cycle, you'll look like a beast up around 195-200 which is where I would see you after this cycle.

Best of luck

[JBarron]

you know what, its so friggen nice to see someone who asks for an opinion and then takes the advice. You are really going to get a lot from your future cycling taking things in stride like this rather than trying some rediculous stack for your second cycle... my first 2 cycle were test only without an oral and the results were great.

If this 2nd cycle is geared more towards mass gain then I would consider switching to test E or C for less injections and combined with an oral you should get really nice gains on a 10 or 12 week cycle. Prop will also work but the frequent pinning is always a pain.

Congrats on getting as lean as you did first cycle, you'll look like a beast up around 195-200 which is where I would see you after this cycle.

Best of luck

Thanks for the input, for my first cycle it was a decision between prop and enanthate, but Idk I wanted to get pinning down so I was comfortable doing it. After a while eod wasn't so bad, once I got the pain issues out of the way.

I've just always been kind of weary of running any orals because of the effects it has on the liver. But if you suggest it will really help increase mass, I will take it into consideration. What orals would you suggest? One that is mild for sure.

With the test I will probably stick to the prop, I really liked it.

[Knockout_Power]

Thanks for the input, for my first cycle it was a decision between prop and enanthate, but Idk I wanted to get pinning down so I was comfortable doing it. After a while eod wasn't so bad, once I got the pain issues out of the way.

I've just always been kind of weary of running any orals because of the effects it has on the liver. But if you suggest it will really help increase mass, I will take it into consideration. What orals would you suggest? One that is mild for sure.

With the test I will probably stick to the prop, I really liked it.

nothing wrong with prop at all, you know it works, run with it. The good thing about the prop is you dont bloat up on it like the longer esters so you could run dbol without the excess bloat. If you want to avoid the water of dbol you could run tbol... if you go dbol 25mg Ed is just fine for the first 4 weeks and the tbol @ 50-60ED for 6 weeks. This will not be too harsh on your liver. Make sure to take milk thistle or Liv 52 and drink plenty of water and your liver will be fine. Try not to drink a lot and this will also keep your liver strong.

I think a simple Prop/dbol cycle will put 20lb on you easily. since you ran 525/wk prop last time, you could up it to 175OED (612/wk) or 200EOD (700/wk) but then you would be running higher test than I am on my 4th cycle. Pesonally I think the oral addition will be tons

[oscarjones]

You could also bulk up naturally for 8-12 weeks with a dirty bulk and just eat like a horse.

Then for your cycle stack the Test P with Winstrol to cut back down to 8%. You'd be hard as nails!

[ninesecz]

Tren is kind of like going from smoking pot every few days to shooting up with heroin every day! It is a hardcore steroid and really not needed unless you have a real hard time or are doing a contest etc. etc. especially if you have only done a few cycles. The first time I did tren and this is not a lie, I had to have a spare set of sheets on the nightstabnd because every night I would wake up with the sheets completely soaked from sweat and have to change them! and I was only doing 1 275mg shot every 6 days! Be very careful stuff can really kick the shit out of you!

[JBarron]

You could also bulk up naturally for 8-12 weeks with a dirty bulk and just eat like a horse.

Then for your cycle stack the Test P with Winstrol to cut back down to 8%. You'd be hard as nails!

No offense, but I'd never dirty bulk, I just believe to much in "you are what you eat" plus I can't stomach that junk food to well.

I'm eating about 4,000+ clean cals a day now which is a good surpluss for me. I haven't put on any fat since pct started.

I would want to run a cycle that will add mass not really cut fat and preserve muscle, my metabolism is fast enough I really don't have a problem staying around 9-8% bodyfat, as long as I eat clean.

[JBarron]

Tren is kind of like going from smoking pot every few days to shooting up with heroin every day! It is a hardcore steroid and really not needed unless you have a real hard time or are doing a contest etc. etc. especially if you have only done a few cycles. The first time I did tren and this is not a lie, I had to have a spare set of sheets on the nightstabnd because every night I would wake up with the sheets completely soaked from sweat and have to change them! and I was only doing 1 275mg shot every 6 days! Be very careful stuff can really kick the shit out of you!

Yeah I will probably wait, if I reach my goal of a cut 200lbs within the next 2 or 3 cycles I doubt I'll ever need to run it.

I'm no competitor, and I don't want to be huuuuge, but I have a goal set in my head.

[JBarron]

What are peoples thoughts on running another test prop cycle, but with a dbol kickstart?

I know kickstarting is for longer estered tests, but looking back on my previous cycle my gains really didn't come untill about week 5 on my cycle. Like I mentioned though, diet and training improved two fold once I was able to eliminate the prop pain.

Anyways, any thoughts on a 12 week prop cycle with a dbol kickstart?

[Noles12]

What are peoples thoughts on running another test prop cycle, but with a dbol kickstart?

I know kickstarting is for longer estered tests, but looking back on my previous cycle my gains really didn't come untill about week 5 on my cycle. Like I mentioned though, diet and training improved two fold once I was able to eliminate the prop pain.

Anyways, any thoughts on a 12 week prop cycle with a dbol kickstart?

It wouldnt be considered a kickstart because the prop would already be working but that doesnt matter. I like it alot. I did it this cycle because i was bulking but had to run prop for certain reasons. I love the gains i make off the dbol in the start and continue making lean gains with the prop

[anadroljack]

tren is no joke like everyone said your to early in your lifting for it but after a couple good years you can give it a try when i started it was nothing but testosterones and post cycle and i became a different person people started talking about how big im getting so dont think test is not one of the best its the backbone to any cycle youll ever do if your good.but when you do try tren because we know you will start with acetate so you can go off real quick if you start to freak out also personally i like acetate best for me.just my thoughts hope it helps.

[Nicotine]

prop and maybe some oral winny???

i did fina. it gave me a touch of gyno (goes away when im off high dose cycle)...

IF you do go for fina, keep some nolva and arimidex on hand.... :\

quick edit: good job on doing research AND listening to peoples suggestions. all the best in the future!

[Noles12]

prop and maybe some oral winny???

i did fina. it gave me a touch of gyno (goes away when im off high dose cycle)...

IF you do go for fina, keep some nolva and arimidex on hand.... :\

quick edit: good job on doing research AND listening to peoples suggestions. all the best in the future!

Wouldnt do much for progesterone related gyno

[Nicotine]

i did warmachines gyno reversal and it helped.....

and true, it wont help with prog gyno.. if anything, take my lumpy nipple as a warning :P

[AlphaGenetics]

Is that lady gaga in your avi nine? She has a fkn smoking body. dam

[AlphaGenetics]

oho its gwen stafani. diddnt know she had a body like that.

[JBarron]

It wouldnt be considered a kickstart because the prop would already be working but that doesnt matter. I like it alot. I did it this cycle because i was bulking but had to run prop for certain reasons. I love the gains i make off the dbol in the start and continue making lean gains with the prop

Good I like to hear that, maybe I will do this for my next cycle.

prop and maybe some oral winny???

i did fina. it gave me a touch of gyno (goes away when im off high dose cycle)...

IF you do go for fina, keep some nolva and arimidex on hand.... :\

quick edit: good job on doing research AND listening to peoples suggestions. all the best in the future!

Thanks for your suggestions, isn't winny mainly for a cutting cycle tho?

For next cycle I'm really not looking to get cut up, I'm already pretty lean and don't have a problem staying lean (even at 4,000+ cals a day)

So I'd really be looking for mass gain.

[Nicotine]

maybe enethate or cypionate, plus deca???

[JBarron]

maybe enethate or cypionate, plus deca???

I really enjoyed the prop (besides the pain at first) kept me really dry looking, no water bloat, and didn't have any gyno, so I think i'll stick with what works.

[Noles12]

I really enjoyed the prop (besides the pain at first) kept me really dry looking, no water bloat, and didn't have any gyno, so I think i'll stick with what works.

Truthfully i would take the cyp or enanthate over prop when bulking any day. I have put on mass this cycle but not like i do when using those two.

I dont get any bloat when i clean bulk and if you are worried about bloat then i wouldnt run dbol. IMO though bloat is all about diet and water intake. If those dont control it a low dose AI will.

I just know if i had the option to run those two this cycle i would have over the prop

[JBarron]

Truthfully i would take the cyp or enanthate over prop when bulking any day. I have put on mass this cycle but not like i do when using those two.

I dont get any bloat when i clean bulk and if you are worried about bloat then i wouldnt run dbol. IMO though bloat is all about diet and water intake. If those dont control it a low dose AI will.

I just know if i had the option to run those two this cycle i would have over the prop

Alright, I'll take those into consideration.

[Nicotine]

prop is more summer time for guys like me - i tend to retain water like a cow without an AI....

longer esters for me = a bit of water...good for bulk

[Neevor]

Alright, I'll take those into consideration.

I have to disagree here. With everything I have read and my own experience (just finished a prop, tren, mast cycle, my number 5) I think prop is fine for bulking up. Its more concentrated per gram and it gives all the same effects except you can end your cycle pretty much the day you want and start PCT right then. Not only that but, what good is water weight in a bulking cycle except to increase your blood pressure and give you stretch marks from all the extra water?

Not any benefits for nasty sides IMHO

[JBarron]

I have to disagree here. With everything I have read and my own experience (just finished a prop, tren, mast cycle, my number 5) I think prop is fine for bulking up. Its more concentrated per gram and it gives all the same effects except you can end your cycle pretty much the day you want and start PCT right then. Not only that but, what good is water weight in a bulking cycle except to increase your blood pressure and give you stretch marks from all the extra water?

Not any benefits for nasty sides IMHO

See, I had decent size gain with prop the first time I ran it alone, no water weight either, the gains were gradual and solid.

So I just figured maybe adding an oral mass gainer such as dbol would help make it a little bit more of a mass gaining cycle.

And I really enjoyed the prop overall, that's why I'd really like to stick with it. So if more people agree that running prop and dbol as a mass gaining cycle isn't such a bad idea I think I'll do that. I know prop is short ester and alot of people feel it doesn't require a jump start (which is what dbol is usually used for). But I didn't start seeing my good solid gains untill week 5-6. I think maybe running 4 weeks of dbol at the beginning could really help.

Thanks for commenting on it.

[AlphaGenetics]

See, I had decent size gain with prop the first time I ran it alone, no water weight either, the gains were gradual and solid.

So I just figured maybe adding an oral mass gainer such as dbol would help make it a little bit more of a mass gaining cycle.

And I really enjoyed the prop overall, that's why I'd really like to stick with it. So if more people agree that running prop and dbol as a mass gaining cycle isn't such a bad idea I think I'll do that. I know prop is short ester and alot of people feel it doesn't require a jump start (which is what dbol is usually used for). But I didn't start seeing my good solid gains untill week 5-6. I think maybe running 4 weeks of dbol at the beginning could really help.

Thanks for commenting on it.

I see nice gains in the first couple weeks of running prop. I agree that about week5 levels are peaking and gains seem to be at thier best.

[Neevor]

.... So I just figured maybe adding an oral mass gainer such as dbol would help make it a little bit more of a mass gaining cycle.

And I really enjoyed the prop overall, that's why I'd really like to stick with it. So if more people agree that running prop and dbol as a mass gaining cycle isn't such a bad idea I think I'll do that. I know prop is short ester and alot of people feel it doesn't require a jump start (which is what dbol is usually used for). But I didn't start seeing my good solid gains untill week 5-6. I think maybe running 4 weeks of dbol at the beginning could really help...

If you read this forum for long enough you'll notice a lot of newbs and quite a few intermediate user memebers recommending long estered stuff for mass cycles. I think this has mainly to do with the fact that most newbs pass out and have to sing songs or whatever while they inject so the fewer amount of times they have to shoot the better for them. Also, I suspect that because water retention occurs with these longer esters and they see more weight they equate that water retention with quality weight.

Also, the Vets seem not to share their opinions very often on benefits or sides of certain substances (I'm guessing they've repeated themselves so many times that they just don't care to again and figure as long as a member isnt being stupid their learn through their own experience so no need to comment) but on the rare occasions I have seen them speak up it seems many of them favor the shorter estered components. Once I noticed this it was what got me to think outside the box a little and stop listening to everyone parroting how long esters are for bulking cycles. Now it seems kind of retarded.

I will say that Knockout_Power mentioned something the other day that I found to be the only good argument for long esters I have really heard so far (I'm not an expert by any means but I know sound logic when I hear it). His argument was that he didnt want to gain lots of weight fast because its hard on the body. He also stated he doesnt front load or take orals to kick start if I recall correctly. Being weary of stressing the body seems to be a legitimate concern. After some thought I think I disagree with his standpoint but mainly because studies show your body gains the most from roids in the first 8 weeks then platteaus. My personal stance is that I want to take advantage of those first 8 weeks as much as possible and have been leaning toward shorter, more frequent cycles. They seem to be less harsh on HPTA as well. Overall, a longer cycle with less immidiate gains seems to have just as many risks as a shorter cycle with quick gains IMHO.

[JBarron]

If you read this forum for long enough you'll notice a lot of newbs and quite a few intermediate user memebers recommending long estered stuff for mass cycles. I think this has mainly to do with the fact that most newbs pass out and have to sing songs or whatever while they inject so the fewer amount of times they have to shoot the better for them. Also, I suspect that because water retention occurs with these longer esters and they see more weight they equate that water retention with quality weight.

Also, the Vets seem not to share their opinions very often on benefits or sides of certain substances (I'm guessing they've repeated themselves so many times that they just don't care to again and figure as long as a member isnt being stupid their learn through their own experience so no need to comment) but on the rare occasions I have seen them speak up it seems many of them favor the shorter estered components. Once I noticed this it was what got me to think outside the box a little and stop listening to everyone parroting how long esters are for bulking cycles. Now it seems kind of retarded.

I will say that Knockout_Power mentioned something the other day that I found to be the only good argument for long esters I have really heard so far (I'm not an expert by any means but I know sound logic when I hear it). His argument was that he didnt want to gain lots of weight fast because its hard on the body. He also stated he doesnt front load or take orals to kick start if I recall correctly. Being weary of stressing the body seems to be a legitimate concern. After some thought I think I disagree with his standpoint but mainly because studies show your body gains the most from roids in the first 8 weeks then platteaus. My personal stance is that I want to take advantage of those first 8 weeks as much as possible and have been leaning toward shorter, more frequent cycles. They seem to be less harsh on HPTA as well. Overall, a longer cycle with less immidiate gains seems to have just as many risks as a shorter cycle with quick gains IMHO.

Thanks for the comment, I've seem to have read in a number of articles that the best keepable gains do come from short bursts of accelerated growth. Like you said it's less harsh on the hpta etc, 12 week or under cycles.

Also, water weight was another concern I had with longer estered tests. I didn't experience hardly any water weight with the prop, like I've mentioned it kept me very dry looking.

And at first since it was my first cycle, I was intimidated about pinning myself EOD. For the first three weeks I was pinning 1.5 inches into my quad and I was barely able to walk, sit, etc. Made working out alot harder. I also had problems shooting glutes, they became very painful as well. I dreaded it everytime I had to pin, cuz I knew the pain waiting ahead lol, but I did it anyways. I was also feeling very lethargic, rundown, sore, the first 4-5 weeks. I would get test flu at least 1 injection out of the week. It was pretty miserable experience.

Finally I wised up, got some 1 inch pins, sterile grapeseed oil, and started pinning delts and quads, pain went away, it was so relieving. After that I was able to train with proper intensity, really started to feel like a beast. That's when gains started coming.

Just think throwing in some d-bol first 4 weeks to the same cycle would be really beneficial to seeing more gains.

[Ashop]

I'm currently doing pct for my first cycle which was prop 150mg EOD 12 weeks. I got decent gains from it and lost a fair amount of bodyfat. Went from 169lbs 10% bodyfat to 178lbs 8% bodyfat.

No sides what so ever everything went pretty smooth, except for the first 7 weeks I was in agonizing pain from the prop, finally started mixing it with sterile grapeseed oil and this eliminated the pain 100%, I then was able to start training more intense, gains came then.

ANyways, I'm evaluating my next cycle which I will probably start in about 2-3 months after pct. I really want to pack on the mass and get to around 190-195, and I've been reading alot about tren lately and would be interested in running it next cycle, along with test prop.

Just wandering what everyones opinions are, should I just run another test prop cycle since it is only my second cycle, or would I be ready for tren?

DEFINTELY run it with some testosterone and if you use it try TREN ACE. Yhe sides are much easier to control than longer esters if you have any issues.