A curious Winstrol Q

[wormwood]

I have just read this somewhere, "Some studies have also shown that winstrol has estrogen and progesterone blocking abilities, making it a good choice to use with other steroids such as Testosterone , Deca or Trenbolone."

Do you guys agree or disagree with that statement?

Thanks.

[wormwood]

I realize that you cannot argue with the results of what the studies may have shown (if in fact they have) just wondering if in your experience or in talking to others if you have found the same or not.

[ythrashin]

recopied from Nandi at CEM:

Won't this notion ever die? One of the mods at elite posted this tired old abstract. I chimed in below:

Hi fellas...Was reading through some of my abstracts and found this interesting one,showing a definite stanozolol/Progesterone receptor interaction,thought you guys might enjoy it as well...

Ellis AJ, Cawston TE, Mackie EJ.

Rheumatology Research Unit, Addenbrooke's Hospital, Cambridge, UK.

The anabolic steroid stanozolol stimulates the production of prostaglandin E2 (PGE2) and the matrix metalloproteinases collagenase and stromelysin in human skin fibroblasts but not in rheumatoid synovial fibroblasts. The basis for these differential responses was investigated at the levels of DNA synthesis and steroid receptor binding. Stanozolol inhibited fibroblast growth factor (FGF)-stimulated DNA synthesis in both the skin and synovial fibroblasts, showing that both cell types were capable of responding to the compound. Competitive binding assays indicated that stanozolol bound specifically to both the skin and synovial fibroblasts. Binding of stanozolol to both cell types could be partially displaced by progesterone, indicating that stanozolol binds to the progesterone receptor. Immunocytochemical studies confirmed the presence of progesterone receptors on skin and synovial fibroblasts. However, progesterone failed to elicit any response with respect to collagenase production in either cell type. Nortestosterone, dexamethasone and 17 beta-oestradiol had no effect on binding of stanozolol to either cell type. These results indicate that the inhibition of DNA synthesis by stanozolol is elicited through the progesterone receptor. The effects of stanozolol on collagenase and PGE2 production are mediated by a different receptor, present on skin but not synovial fibroblasts, and as yet unidentified.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Virtually all androgens bind to the progesterone receptor to some degree; similarly progestins (and antiprogestins) bind to the androgen receptor. RU 486 binds to the androgen receptor as an antiandrogen, rendering it useless for bodybuilders.

As far as the winstrol article goes, has anyone bothered to actually read the whole study? Presumably we are supposed to believe winstrol has some kind of antiprogestin capability because it blocked FGF stimulated DNA synthesis.

The effect on DNA synthesis was measured by thymidine uptake. Less thymidine uptake means less DNA synthesis. Quoting from page 38 of the article,

" A significant inhibition of thymidine uptake was seen in response to stanozolol in both cell types. The steroids nortestosterone, oxymetholone, and progesterone itself were also tested for their effect on thymidine uptake to determine whether the effects of stanozolol on DNA synthesis were unique. These other compounds also inhibited DNA synthesis in both cell types"

In other words, winstrol has THE SAME effect as progesterone on progesterone receptor mediated DNA synthesis: they both block it. So rather than acting as an antiprogesterone in this study, winstrol, as well as nandrolone and oxymetholone, act in the same manner as progesterone
__________________

[ythrashin]

another post by nandi:
What is being said is that winstrol has the same effect as progesterone in that study. So it is a progesterone agonist. Nandrolone also has progestigenic preoperties, meaning it too binds to the progesterone receptor as as agonist (like progesterone). None of these drugs cause progesterone induced gyno because there is likely no such thing as progesterone induced gyno.

Deca aromatizes, so that certainly may contribute to gyno in its case. Fb47's theory is the most plausible theory as to how non aromatizing androgens could cause gyno. DHT exerts a number of antiestrogenic actions. When you suppress its production by taking nontestosterone based AAS, that could lead to gyno.

[ythrashin]

So in conclusion...

Progesterone does not form gyno...It only increases prolactin. Prolactin does not form gyno! Just puffy, itchy lactating titties!!

[HawaiianPride.]

I believe it doesn't have estrogen blocking properties on it's own but I've read from a few sources it may be able to block estrogen from other steroids it's stacked with, due to the 5-alpha reduction process. As far as anti-progestagenic effects, it's theory goes that Win can bind and compete for a position at the progesterone receptor similar to Clomid and Nolvadex would at the estrogen receptor, thus inhibiting progestagenic effects. BUT, as a few of us know, progesterone can aggravate estrogenic side-effects by agonizing estrogen and it does play a role in gyno..

[wormwood]

Great answers guys, thanks.

[ythrashin]

I believe it doesn't have estrogen blocking properties on it's own but I've read from a few sources it may be able to block estrogen from other steroids it's stacked with, due to the 5-alpha reduction process. As far as anti-progestagenic effects, it's theory goes that Win can bind and compete for a position at the progesterone receptor similar to Clomid and Nolvadex would at the estrogen receptor, thus inhibiting progestagenic effects. BUT, as a few of us know, progesterone can aggravate estrogenic side-effects by agonizing estrogen and it does play a role in gyno..

I have read some theories stating that progesterone can further compound estrogen induced gyno BUT can not form gyno on its own.
I've read no concrete evidence...just theories.

[TKO Performance]

Winstrol, since it is not 5-alpha reduced, blocks either production or utilization of progesterone. This is how it can reduce or even shut down collagen synthesis, as this is progesterone modulated. By lowering SHGB it increase free test in the body. Test converts to DHT, which I believe is what causes the issue with progesterone. However, test also aromatizes to estrogen, so in this respect it may be possible for Winstrol to influence gyno. As with all things the dosage would determine how much free test increases, thus how much aromatizes, and thus how much it could contribute.

The real reason guys stack in Winstrol is cutting, pure and simple. That's been a truth since the dawn of steroids. It's not great for bulking, but if you stack it with test, etc. you can build bulk while still staying lean/hard. Thinking that Winstrol is going to protect you from gyno when using other steroids that are known to cause it is foolhardy. Only AIs are going to do that.

[wormwood]

Yeah I didn't even remotely believe that it could ever possibly replace an AI and a progesterone antagonist.

[ythrashin]

Same with proviron... Some people think that proviron alone is enough to prevent gyno. They find out to late that it is not.