Need Opinions

[CFforged]

I've commented in other threads that I'm 30 years old and have been having symptoms of low test. After going through the gambit of anti-aging clinics and endos I finally went to my primary last week to get the labs done. I just got the results today. Thyroid and lipids are all good, epstein bar is negative. I thought he was going to run a full hormonal panel but only ran total test.

Total Test = 250 (241-827 ng/dl)

They tell me I am in the normal range. Well, I can see that, but it's in the super low normal range!! I am so frustrated because there is no other aparant cause for the symptoms I am having. Am I crazy here?

For those of you who know much more about this than I, what do you think of this? Is TRT not an option with this level? I understand "normal", but at age 30 shouldn't I be in the optimal range??

[CFforged]

Just got a call from the doc and he is willing to prescribe Androgel to see if it helps any. Will that do anything to get me closer to the higher normal range?

[iGOTstrongBICEPS]

Androgel is a waste. It will do absolutely nothing, sorry to burst your bubble bro.

[CFforged]

Figured as much, plus it sounds like this sh*t is going to be expensive....

So frustrated with all of this

[zaggahamma]

i would do androgel in a heartbeat if i had no other test source...i had the same level as you when i went on androgel and saw nice gains and was able to lose body fat on 10mg of gel a day....just got tired of the mess and everyday but would do it all over again fo sho..

my.02

[Alloy]

If you can only get Androgel, so be it. Be sure to make your doc aware of the Androgel converts to E2 pretty quickly over time. When I first tried it, I must say the first month was pretty good. Lost some weight, libido went up, all was well. Then my PCP said I was cured, then the real fun began. All the water weight and bloat came back, went from a size 33 to a size 36 pants, depression, anxiety, no energy, all the cool sides of high E2. Just giving you a heads up bases upon my experience. Also if your married or have a gf, keep her way the hell away from you until that stuff dries. Skin to skin transfer is common and is a warning on their website.

[forrest_and_trees]

Sometimes you need to walk before you can run. At least you've got your doc open to the idea of TRT. Like Alloy said, E2 [Estrogen] conversion is a big issue. You're levels *will* go up and all that he said will happen. Best if you can convince your doc to run and Estradiol panel now to establish a baseline number of E2 before you begin your TRT. Also, if you have kids or are around them, then gel is a BIG NO NO! Again, like Alloy inferred, transfer is way too easy and WAY too dangerous for kids. But as long as the other issues do not apply, then give it a try. You should be able to get your Total up to the 700 range with gel. Adding DHEA would help too. Just make sure you've got an Anti-Aromatise or Aromatise Inhibitor [AI] at the ready when your E2 spikes. Arimidex is best but WAY too expensive so go with the generic brand called Anastrozole. It's a fraction of the cost. Once you show your doc that you're responsible and taking an active role in your TRT program, you can broach the subject of injectible. It's MUCH cheaper and since this will be a *lifetime* commitment, it's much more affordable. It will happen in time. Just hang in there and good luck.

F/T

P.S. Give it time, TRT doesn't happen over night. I've been on it for more than a year and *still* I'm working to dial in the proper program that works best for me.

[ds53]

Be careful with the gel. If you have a wife, girlfriend, dogs, cats, kids, grand kids or anything you will be near can get dosed by handling your clothes, giving you a hub ect.. and it will really screw them up. Thats the reason most people opt for injections as it keeps others from being exposed to it.

[Priapism]

Androgel is a waste. It will do absolutely nothing, sorry to burst your bubble bro.

Why do you make comments like that? You're completely wrong. Just because it didn't work for you, have you not seen the literally hundreds of posts from people who said it made their T skyrocket? Surely you know you're not the only guy on the planet right?

Androgel works great. Try it for a few days and you will see for yourself. There is absolutely no reason to jump to injections right off the bat just because beefcake says it sucks.

If you have a wife, girlfriend, dogs, cats, kids, grand kids ... it will really screw them up

I keep hearing this. How exactly will some androgel screw up your girlfriend? Maybe she gets a little boost of testosterone from you and gets a little horny? But thats absurd. Most of you guys claim that even a full packet "will do nothing" so how exactly is a second hand fingerprint worth of dried androgel going to harm someone? This fails the common sense, logic 101 test. Warnings on inserts are there for worst case scenarios. Finasteride warns against women handling broken tablets. Do you know why? Because when 600 times the dose was directly injected into a fetus, it caused birth defects. So they take it a million miles from that and say "Dont handle broken tablets". I can understand MAYBE children having LONG TERM and DIRECT exposure to it might have problems. ... but your adult girlfriend rubbing on you during sex? No. Dogs, cats, ....? If it was that dangerous people would never be allowed to go out in public with it on. You think some guy doesnt walk around all day rubbing against stuff? You dont see people's heads exploding.

-P-

[JuiceBox12]

Priapism, those are some pretty witty comments. What a great way to start the day. Good old fashion laughter.

[flatscat]

Why do you make comments like that? You're completely wrong. Just because it didn't work for you, have you not seen the literally hundreds of posts from people who said it made their T skyrocket? Surely you know you're not the only guy on the planet right?

Androgel works great. Try it for a few days and you will see for yourself. There is absolutely no reason to jump to injections right off the bat just because beefcake says it sucks.



I keep hearing this. How exactly will some androgel screw up your girlfriend? Maybe she gets a little boost of testosterone from you and gets a little horny? But thats absurd. Most of you guys claim that even a full packet "will do nothing" so how exactly is a second hand fingerprint worth of dried androgel going to harm someone? This fails the common sense, logic 101 test. Warnings on inserts are there for worst case scenarios. Finasteride warns against women handling broken tablets. Do you know why? Because when 600 times the dose was directly injected into a fetus, it caused birth defects. So they take it a million miles from that and say "Dont handle broken tablets". I can understand MAYBE children having LONG TERM and DIRECT exposure to it might have problems. ... but your adult girlfriend rubbing on you during sex? No. Dogs, cats, ....? If it was that dangerous people would never be allowed to go out in public with it on. You think some guy doesnt walk around all day rubbing against stuff? You dont see people's heads exploding.

-P-

Nice post - mostly right, but I don't even want to take a chance at my kids getting screwed up or my wife having a 5 inch love button - just not worth it to me.

[zaggahamma]

well at least priapism's post wont be over looked...kind of the point i wanted to make...that androgel IS BETTER THAN NOTHING...

[CFforged]

i would do androgel in a heartbeat if i had no other test source...i had the same level as you when i went on androgel and saw nice gains and was able to lose body fat on 10mg of gel a day....just got tired of the mess and everyday but would do it all over again fo sho..

my.02

Thanks for that, it actually makes me feel better about the situation

[CFforged]

Be careful with the gel. If you have a wife, girlfriend, dogs, cats, kids, grand kids or anything you will be near can get dosed by handling your clothes, giving you a hub ect.. and it will really screw them up. Thats the reason most people opt for injections as it keeps others from being exposed to it.

That was my concern, I have a wife and pets and I had read comments like this before here. I brought it up to the doc but he pretty quickly dismissed it.

[CFforged]

Thanks for the replies everyone, helps put things in perspective. I'm waiting for the Androgel scipt to get filled, insurance has to approve it and from past experience I know they drag their feet on this kind of thing. I'll start taking it and see how it works for me. In the meantime the wife and I are shopping around for an endo who has some experince with TRT. Once I can do that I'll be sure to have my E2 levels checked like suggested.

[forrest_and_trees]

Priapisim, while your comments are witty and somewhat entertaining, they lead me to suspect you're not a parent; otherwise I would think you'd have a bit more concern for your child's well being.

For those who would like some factual examples of the potential dangers of secondary exposure to Androgel, feel free to read the following FDA report from Jan of 2009 outlining specific cases.

Call me crazy, but I'd rather be safe than sorry; that's just how I roll.

[CFforged]

For those of you who have been on the Androgel, did it help improve your sleep at all? That has been a major issue lately...

[CFforged]

Just got the call that I'm being squeezed in tomorrow morning to see a highly regarded endo. Super happy about it!

[zaggahamma]

Just got the call that I'm being squeezed in tomorrow morning to see a highly regarded endo. Super happy about it!

love those....

we'll be waiting your update

[Epic Ed]

Saying the gel products are a waste is simply not true. It's not what I would prefer to do, but outside of these forums it's what most docs prescribe for low T to their patients and many have great success on that protocol.

The draw backs, aside from what has already been mentioned, are that it has to be applied every day and there is a waiting period for it to dry before you can put on your clothes over top of it. To me, that's a much bigger every day hassle then pinning twice a week. There's also the argument that dosing is inconsistent from day to day. It absorbs at different levels due to a variety of factors -- how active you are, how much you sweat, how much gets transferred to your clothes, how long you let it dry before putting on clothes, etc. With an injection you are getting the same, consistent dose every time you pin. Every freakin time. There also seems to be some evidence that suggests the gels become less effective after a period of time. I've never found anything that is able to pin point why this might be, but I've read story after story from people who started out well on the gels and then, for what ever reason, had lower test levels again after 6-12 months.

Don't let any doc tell you that "you're fine" just because your scores fall within the testing reference range. When you're told that, you're essentially being told that ANY number within the range is as good as any other number within the range. A 250 is just a good as an 800. That's bullshit. The number is only part of the story. The other part of the picture (and BIGGER part) are your symptoms. Docs who disregard their patients symptoms just because the numbers fall within a "normal" range are incompetent boobs that need to be kicked in the balls. Do not settle for "you're fine" as an answer.

[JuiceBox12]

Epic Ed that was a very insightful comment about range numbers. Thank you very much.

[zaggahamma]

agree well said

[sirupate]

Androgel is a waste. It will do absolutely nothing, sorry to burst your bubble bro.

You are quite wrong. I'm not exactly a defender of Androgel, but it raised me from say 300 total to about 1200 total on only the 5gms. dose in about 6 months. There are downsides to Androgel, especially the cost of dosing, but it is easy and painless. It may be the way to go initially, with injecting as a second option if the results are not good.

I know there is a bias toward IM injection here, and I'd like to try that at some point, but Androgel does work for some people and may be the best option for some people too. I'd say more important than the testosterone vehicle are regular and comprehensive labs to check results.

Jeff

[sirupate]

I'd like to add that contamination isn't a concern for me. Circumstances differ of course, but my kids are late teens and we don't have much skin to skin contact anymore. My wife could use a shot of testosterone...lol, but we are not like dating teens anymore either. As to mess and drying time...I don't get that at all. I rub the gell in well on 3 or 4 areas and it is dry in about a minute. Full absorption is supposed to occur within about an hour according to Dr. Crisler and I just don't "worry" after that.

I would, however, make sure your doctor is doing an estradiol lab with your regular bloodwork.

Jeff

[zaggahamma]

the gel rubbing off theory to me was just one good argument to add when asking to switch to injections and like i've said b4 although prefer pinning i would do the gel if i had to

[sirupate]

For those of you who have been on the Androgel, did it help improve your sleep at all? That has been a major issue lately...

I think Androgel did help my sleep at first. Now it seems more a function of amount of exercise and whether anything is weighing heavily on my mind. But bear in mind that I have been on the gel for about 9 months now, so the changes I felt initially may have become what seems "normal" to me now.

Jeff

[pittbulldad]

Secondary contact is always a concern but if you take some very simple precautions then it shouldn't be an issue.

wash your hands
avoid intimate contact until the gel has dried/absorbed

if you do those two things you will greatly reduce secondary contact issues..

this message has been brought to you by your local medical professional

[frawnz]

I didn't get very good results from Androgel. The results from injections have been incredibly better. I'm just not convinced that Androgel really does any absorption through the skin after the initial drying period. Once it dries it seems to just sit like a film on your skin and I'm not sure if it's actually getting absorbed any more at that point. Generally speaking, my chest/shoulders don't really sweat either, so there's nothing to really help lubricate it to make it more easily absorbed by the skin unless you happen to sweat a lot or work out (and then it probably ends up getting absorbed more by your shirt than your skin).

Everyone is different tho. But even dosage wise, a standard packet of Androgel is 5g (5000mg), and it is only 1% Testosterone (5000mg x 1% = 50mg), and then add to that the estimated absorption rate is about 10% (50mg x 10% = 5mg). Taken every day, that ends up being 7 days x 5mg = 35mg/week. Most injections run at around 100mg-200mg/week, and is much more consistant.

These aren't made up numbers, they're pulled straight from the Androgel documentation inside the box.

[zaggahamma]

I didn't get very good results from Androgel. The results from injections have been incredibly better. I'm just not convinced that Androgel really does any absorption through the skin after the initial drying period. Once it dries it seems to just sit like a film on your skin and I'm not sure if it's actually getting absorbed any more at that point. Generally speaking, my chest/shoulders don't really sweat either, so there's nothing to really help lubricate it to make it more easily absorbed by the skin unless you happen to sweat a lot or work out (and then it probably ends up getting absorbed more by your shirt than your skin).

Everyone is different tho. But even dosage wise, a standard packet of Androgel is 5g (5000mg), and it is only 1% Testosterone (5000mg x 1% = 50mg), and then add to that the estimated absorption rate is about 10% (50mg x 10% = 5mg). Taken every day, that ends up being 7 days x 5mg = 35mg/week. Most injections run at around 100mg-200mg/week, and is much more consistant.

These aren't made up numbers, they're pulled straight from the Androgel documentation inside the box.

thats y i did 2 packets and therefore after all that math it equates to a 100mg shot because of the ester in the injectible...but agree shots are better for many reasons

[sirupate]

I didn't get very good results from Androgel. The results from injections have been incredibly better. I'm just not convinced that Androgel really does any absorption through the skin after the initial drying period. Once it dries it seems to just sit like a film on your skin and I'm not sure if it's actually getting absorbed any more at that point. Generally speaking, my chest/shoulders don't really sweat either, so there's nothing to really help lubricate it to make it more easily absorbed by the skin unless you happen to sweat a lot or work out (and then it probably ends up getting absorbed more by your shirt than your skin).

Everyone is different tho. But even dosage wise, a standard packet of Androgel is 5g (5000mg), and it is only 1% Testosterone (5000mg x 1% = 50mg), and then add to that the estimated absorption rate is about 10% (50mg x 10% = 5mg). Taken every day, that ends up being 7 days x 5mg = 35mg/week. Most injections run at around 100mg-200mg/week, and is much more consistant.

These aren't made up numbers, they're pulled straight from the Androgel documentation inside the box.

I think I agree with your Gel numbers, but doesn't your IM number include the cottonseed oil carrier too? Not sure if you have apples to apples yet.

I rub the Gel into my skin. It doesn't really lay on the surface and wait to dry. But yes, everyone is different and reacts differently to most any meds.

Jeff

[zaggahamma]

I think I agree with your Gel numbers, but doesn't your IM number include the cottonseed oil carrier too? Not sure if you have apples to apples yet.

I rub the Gel into my skin. It doesn't really lay on the surface and wait to dry. But yes, everyone is different and reacts differently to most any meds.

Jeff

yes....see my above post....test cyp and enan are about the same amount of ester....generally a 100mg shot will yield 70mg of test...not sure if its cottonseed or not...guess i've never seen/noticed

[frawnz]

I think I agree with your Gel numbers, but doesn't your IM number include the cottonseed oil carrier too? Not sure if you have apples to apples yet.

I rub the Gel into my skin. It doesn't really lay on the surface and wait to dry. But yes, everyone is different and reacts differently to most any meds.

Jeff

True, the minimum TRT dosage (that I've seen) of 100mg of test C would be more akin to double the minimum dosage of Androgel (1 5g pack/day).

[CFforged]

love those....

we'll be waiting your update

Had my visit with the endo, it's pretty clear he views TRT for someone my age as a last resort only. I don't necesarily disagree with him but after suffering with symptoms for several months I'm anxious to start treating it.

He drew more blood to do a more in depth hormonal panel. He said even if this second test comes back low there will be a couple more steps before he starts prescribing any therapy. The next of which would be an MRI to check the pituitary gland, my insurance will love that I'm sure. I have an appointment on 9/28 where I'll get these lab results and find out where we go from there.

He advised that I not take the Androgel, at least not yet, my insurance hasn't even approved it at this point anyways.... Not sure what I was expecting, I just want to know what's up so I can start dealing with it.

Does this sound like a common experience when attempting to wade in the TRT waters?

[Epic Ed]

I think determining root cause, if possible, is a good idea. No harm in that. TRT should be a last resort -- he's correct. But, if you're definitively not producing enough testosterone to keep your symptoms of low T from occurring and nothing else works to elevate your testosterone levels then it would be silly to expect you not to want to get on a TRT program. You're 30 y/o, but some people who are even young have been found to have permanently low natural testosterone levels. What are they to do? Suck it up and suffer because they don't fit the rigid parameters of the guidelines? Or would it make more sense to just treat the fecking patient? I think you know where I stand. Get as many answers as possible and then assess your options.

[zaggahamma]

I think determining root cause, if possible, is a good idea. No harm in that. TRT should be a last resort -- he's correct. But, if you're definitively not producing enough testosterone to keep your symptoms of low T from occurring and nothing else works to elevate your testosterone levels then it would be silly to expect you not to want to get on a TRT program. You're 30 y/o, but some people who are even young have been found to have permanently low natural testosterone levels. What are they to do? Suck it up and suffer because they don't fit the rigid parameters of the guidelines? Or would it make more sense to just treat the fecking patient? I think you know where I stand. Get as many answers as possible and then assess your options.

agree..
and would like to ad...wtf is this...insurance company still hasnt approved the gel??? its either they do or they dont...they have a list usually...and FVCK THEM about the mri...who gives a fvck

[CFforged]

My insurance company drags their ass when it comes to stuff like this. A year ago I had a stress fracture in my left foot and it took them 3 days to approve a CT scan that my doc requested. Cheap motherfvckers.....

[subnet]

hey CF - you mentioned your age, but what's your weight and height and est. bf percentage? Curious as to your Estradiol number but you obviously won't know until you see the doc later this month.

[CFforged]

30
6'2"
196lbs
14% BF (just checked it)

[CFforged]

On a side note....are endo offices typically full of hot ass milf types?? This place was crawling with cougars! LOL

[Vettester]

On a side note....are endo offices typically full of hot ass milf types?? This place was crawling with cougars! LOL

Sounds like my dentist's office ... All female forum there!