New possible protocals during CYCLE THROUGH PCT...

[Sauced_Up]

Please quickly read this peer reviewed study I found about Nolvadex and how FSH, luteinizing hormone and testosterone levels were significantly increased after the use of oral TC 20 mg daily for 6 months...........



Oral tamoxifen citrate treatment is more effective in normogonadotropic patients who have follicle-stimulating hormone levels within the lower half of normal

Kadioglu TC.
Istanbul University, Istanbul School of Medicine, Istanbul, Turkey.
Int Urol Nephrol. 2009 Dec;41(4):773-6. Epub 2009 Apr 21.

Abstract
OBJECTIVE: To identify a subgroup of normogonadotropic men who may benefit relatively more from TC (tamoxifen citrate; a widely prescribed drug for male infertility) among those with FSH (follicle-stimulating hormone) values in the lower or higher halves of the normal range.

PATIENTS AND METHODS: In this retrospective study, 120 normogonadotropic infertile men with idiopathic oligozoospermia were included. All patients received 20 mg TC daily as a single dose for 6 months, and semen analysis and hormone levels were analyzed after 6 months, with the values being compared with those before treatment.

RESULTS: The FSH, luteinizing hormone and testosterone levels were significantly increased after the use of oral TC 20 mg daily. The sperm counts of the patients in the lower initial FSH group had a significantly higher increase in sperm count and concentration compared to the relatively higher FSH group.

CONCLUSION: This study revealed that initial FSH values can be used as a marker to estimate the probability that a patient will benefit from oral TC therapy. Patients in the lower FSH group had statistically higher chances of having higher sperm counts after treatment, and it is rational to advise these patients to receive 6 months of oral TC therapy. However, before drawing firm conclusions from this retrospective study, these results should be confirmed with double-blind, placebo-controlled, randomized trials.





NOWWWWWW........

It had been repeated on this site since I joined that nolvadex shouldn't be ran during cycle, only PCT, and an AI is better. But think about this, according to the study Nolva increased FSH, LH, and test during a constant 6 month trial dosed at 20mg/day. Now those were for people whose levels we suppressed lower then norma, butl while on gear a users level will definitely suppressed. So if a user were to use Nolva the entire cycle length their body would constantly keep FSH and LH stimulated thus when continued through PCT, not only would estrogen side effects be non existent BUT recovery from the cycle would be extremely easy specially if HCG was used in conjunction!


LET THE DEBATE BEGIN!

[Sauced_Up]

This is the thread I created a few days again with tons of studies done on AAS and thier likes.....
Check it out for other interesting results from various studies

http://forums.steroid.com/showthread...bolic-Steroids

[redz]

Nolva on cycle is ok at low doses if needed but I wouldn`t use it to keep natty test going. It's just not worth it and I have ran cycles with it and recovery was no different than without it.

[LGM]

Dammit sauced... quit changing my protocols! I'm still waiting for Swifto to answer me in the PCT forum!

Cool if true though; I'm most concerned about sides, since I'm apparently prone to retaining water.

[Sauced_Up]

Nolva on cycle is ok at low doses if needed but I wouldn`t use it to keep natty test going. It's just not worth it and I have ran cycles with it and recovery was no different than without it.

How would it not be worth it? If it can stimulate your FSH and LH the entire cycle this will reduce shutdown on cycle. I believe that would be very beneficial as thats what users try to do with HCG. So in theory it would be an effective protocol

Dammit sauced... quit changing my protocols! I'm still waiting for Swifto to answer me in the PCT forum!

Cool if true though; I'm most concerned about sides, since I'm apparently prone to retaining water.

HAHA Im just trying to stimulate thinking among the board and challenge the current thinking. If we can reduce shutdown on cycle then recovery would proceed very smoothly.

[Knockout_Power]

If we can reduce shutdown on cycle then recovery would proceed very smoothly.

good write up, but isnt this why we toss in HCG?

[redz]

How would it not be worth it?

Because you could be supressing gains by taking Nolva....

[Sauced_Up]

good write up, but isnt this why we toss in HCG?

thanks, I know HCG is mainly used but I am just saying that if someone couldnt have access to HCG, Nolva could possibly be used instead at a low dose throughout the cycle. Also maybe if HCG was used in conjunction with Nolva, maybe on a EOD schedual, the recovery period during PCT could possibly be shortened further.

Thats why I posted this, so we could discuss this further

[muscle_dysmorphia]

Please quickly read this peer reviewed study I found about Nolvadex and how FSH, luteinizing hormone and testosterone levels were significantly increased after the use of oral TC 20 mg daily for 6 months...........



Oral tamoxifen citrate treatment is more effective in normogonadotropic patients who have follicle-stimulating hormone levels within the lower half of normal

Kadioglu TC.
Istanbul University, Istanbul School of Medicine, Istanbul, Turkey.
Int Urol Nephrol. 2009 Dec;41(4):773-6. Epub 2009 Apr 21.

Abstract
OBJECTIVE: To identify a subgroup of normogonadotropic men who may benefit relatively more from TC (tamoxifen citrate; a widely prescribed drug for male infertility) among those with FSH (follicle-stimulating hormone) values in the lower or higher halves of the normal range.

PATIENTS AND METHODS: In this retrospective study, 120 normogonadotropic infertile men with idiopathic oligozoospermia were included. All patients received 20 mg TC daily as a single dose for 6 months, and semen analysis and hormone levels were analyzed after 6 months, with the values being compared with those before treatment.

RESULTS: The FSH, luteinizing hormone and testosterone levels were significantly increased after the use of oral TC 20 mg daily. The sperm counts of the patients in the lower initial FSH group had a significantly higher increase in sperm count and concentration compared to the relatively higher FSH group.

CONCLUSION: This study revealed that initial FSH values can be used as a marker to estimate the probability that a patient will benefit from oral TC therapy. Patients in the lower FSH group had statistically higher chances of having higher sperm counts after treatment, and it is rational to advise these patients to receive 6 months of oral TC therapy. However, before drawing firm conclusions from this retrospective study, these results should be confirmed with double-blind, placebo-controlled, randomized trials.





NOWWWWWW........

It had been repeated on this site since I joined that nolvadex shouldn't be ran during cycle, only PCT, and an AI is better. But think about this, according to the study Nolva increased FSH, LH, and test during a constant 6 month trial dosed at 20mg/day. Now those were for people whose levels we suppressed lower then norma, butl while on gear a users level will definitely suppressed. So if a user were to use Nolva the entire cycle length their body would constantly keep FSH and LH stimulated thus when continued through PCT, not only would estrogen side effects be non existent BUT recovery from the cycle would be extremely easy specially if HCG was used in conjunction!


LET THE DEBATE BEGIN!

Good theory, but no it won't be beneficial to run it. This is why...

You're misinterpreting the data.... the abstract is stating that normogonadotropic males with low-ish FSH, and LH see improvement from the tamoxifen therapy. These individuals in the study DO NOT have a fully suppressed HPTA, like an individual who is using anabolic-androgenic steroids. With full HPTA-shutdown the body will no longer be making homeostatic-levels of LH or FSH; where the individuals in this study were still producing to some degree these hormones naturally. On cycle one can actively control for LH and FSH via HCG (which mimics LH) and the use of HMG for FSH.

To control estrogen sides Exemstane is second to none.

Nevertheless, some enjoy nolva's gyno-prevention properties on cycle - I've used it many times, even to reduce existing gyno while on cycle with great success.

One more thing to note - when you're reviewing abstracts of medical journals you should consider the various limitations of the studies. As even stated:

"However, before drawing firm conclusions from this retrospective study, these results should be confirmed with double-blind, placebo-controlled, randomized trials." (anything without placebo-controlled testing for baseline, and even double-blind studies is extremely limiting.)

While it may be a peer reviewed article, it is very incomplete in it's ability to make a non-ambiguous well-fare decision about the use of tamoxifen.

[Sauced_Up]

Good theory, but no it won't be beneficial to run it. This is why...

You're misinterpreting the data.... the abstract is stating that normogonadotropic males with low-ish FSH, and LH see improvement from the tamoxifen therapy. These individuals in the study DO NOT have a fully suppressed HPTA, like an individual who is using anabolic-androgenic steroids. With full HPTA-shutdown the body will no longer be making homeostatic-levels of LH or FSH; where the individuals in this study were still producing to some degree these hormones naturally. On cycle one can actively control for LH and FSH via HCG (which mimics LH) and the use of HMG for FSH.

To control estrogen sides Exemstane is second to none.

Nevertheless, some enjoy nolva's gyno-prevention properties on cycle - I've used it many times, even to reduce existing gyno while on cycle with great success.

One more thing to note - when you're reviewing abstracts of medical journals you should consider the various limitations of the studies. As even stated:

"However, before drawing firm conclusions from this retrospective study, these results should be confirmed with double-blind, placebo-controlled, randomized trials." (anything without placebo-controlled testing for baseline, and even double-blind studies is extremely limiting.)

While it may be a peer reviewed article, it is very incomplete in it's ability to make a non-ambiguous well-fare decision about the use of tamoxifen.

Now understand I am just asking for a debate, not trying to change everyones ways of PCT.

Next to argue what you stated, your body when taking gear does not instantly say "ok were shutting down the HPTA completely now", its a gradual process that can be seen with constant blood testing. Levels of both FSH and LH slowly diminish, and even on a 8-12 week cycle the levels never reach 0, atleast from what I have ever seen from mine or anyone who posted bloodwork (I may stand corrected if this can be proven otherwise). So thus in sense this could work since the users levels will be at a level lower then average which could possibly work.

Also I did read that a double blind, placebo would be further needed to verify. Thats why I posted this to stir a debate. As a possibilty to see alternatives.

[muscle_dysmorphia]

Now understand I am just asking for a debate, not trying to change everyones ways of PCT.

Next to argue what you stated, your body when taking gear does not instantly say "ok were shutting down the HPTA completely now", its a gradual process that can be seen with constant blood testing. Levels of both FSH and LH slowly diminish, and even on a 8-12 week cycle the levels never reach 0, atleast from what I have ever seen from mine or anyone who posted bloodwork (I may stand corrected if this can be proven otherwise). So thus in sense this could work since the users levels will be at a level lower then average which could possibly work.

Also I did read that a double blind, placebo would be further needed to verify. Thats why I posted this to stir a debate. As a possibilty to see alternatives.

haha.... I'm not challenging you... Sorry if it came off that way.. I was merely trying to give my opinion on both the article/abstract and on it's meaning to bodybuilders.

You're correct that HPTA shutdown is a gradual process; but not in all cases. 19-nor compounds will cause 100% suppression after 1 injection. (deca).

Again... I bring it back to the fundamentals of pathways. If one is looking for the easiest recovery then use HMG and HCG throughout the cycle, and SERMS for the pct. IMO, pulsing tamoxifen throughout a cycle will in no way help HPTA function; rather, I believe its sole use would be to block breast tissue receptors for those gyno-prone.

A more fundamental concern to bodybuilders would be utilizing stacks of steroids to maximize hormonal function. (IE) using compounds that alter SHBG, or even simply proviron which will free up unbound testosterone. The use of LH and FSH aren't as essential..

My 0.02...

[Sauced_Up]

haha.... I'm not challenging you... Sorry if it came off that way.. I was merely trying to give my opinion on both the article/abstract and on it's meaning to bodybuilders.

You're correct that HPTA shutdown is a gradual process; but not in all cases. 19-nor compounds will cause 100% suppression after 1 injection. (deca).

Again... I bring it back to the fundamentals of pathways. If one is looking for the easiest recovery then use HMG and HCG throughout the cycle, and SERMS for the pct. IMO, pulsing tamoxifen throughout a cycle will in no way help HPTA function; rather, I believe its sole use would be to block breast tissue receptors for those gyno-prone.

A more fundamental concern to bodybuilders would be utilizing stacks of steroids to maximize hormonal function. (IE) using compounds that alter SHBG, or even simply proviron which will free up unbound testosterone. The use of LH and FSH aren't as essential..

My 0.02...

Well thanks for the input as I wasnt trying to argue either, I also am merely giving my opinion on this subject. Thats why I posted this but its always good to get other opinions on the matter. I honestly have no clue if it would work or not, just speculating.