Sugar

[mg0922]

this may be a dumb question but oh well

Ok so ive been doing so much reading and studying and im finally laying out my outline for my diet. Once i get it finished i will post it up to see what you all think.

Ive been here for a few months and have learned SO MUCH!! I have a pretty good idea of what im doing now.

one question i have now.. ABOUT SUGAR.

WHen im on a bulk diet it seems as though sugar is somthing that we want to stay away from...does it all turn into fat besides the sugar in fruit.

Say for example this cereal i LOVE!! Im pretty sure it needs to be cut out of my diet, the thing is it seems like its not bad for me. I get it from trader joes and its called maple pecan clusters . HEre is the nutritional facts


Calories 220 Calories from Fat 60
% Daily Value *
Total Fat 6g 9%
Saturated Fat 0.5g 2%
Trans Fat 0g
Cholesterol 0mg 0%
Sodium 135mg 6%
Total Carbohydrate 37g 12%
Dietary Fiber 2g 8%
Sugars 10g
Protein 5g 10%


Is this that bad for me where id have to cut it out completely? If so i have no problem doing so. Im just trying to get an idea of the whole sugar outlook and what is not good for me. Any comments would be great


thx

[POPS]

Cut out all sugar unless you need to have some pwo, like having a banana with your shake. Otherwise dump it completely. Have oatmeal made with water and throw in some splenda or sugar free jam for taste.

[FireGuy]

First of all the sugar in fruit is one of the worst as far as being stored as fat. As far as the above, if you are looking to add weight it shouldnt hurt if taken in moderation. My guess is their "one serving" specs and what you are eating per serving are two different things.

[mg0922]

thx pops

lol yea well now that im taking everything serious i would definitley weigh my food and make sure the portions are correct. AS far as fruit goes, in a bulking diet I should be able to to eat fruit in moderation also. I thought there were certain fruits that aid in fat burn? like grapefruits?

[voidofRoids]

Every nutrient has a purpose, benefit, and down-side. Sugar isn't the nemesis it is made out to be, but it certainly isn't the end-all-be-all. When on a bulk, this in my mind, is the only time you'll really get to take any sugar in (cuts should be keto, IMO). You just need to properly intake your sugars; some citrus with breakfast, a banana post-workout, etc. These things will not cause any detriment. Now, on the same token, if you notice yourself eating 100g or more of sugar throughout the day you may want to re-assess your nutritional intake. And always remember to avoid processed sugars when possible.

[Twist]

Sugar in combination with dietary fat = fat storage

[gbrice75]

I feel your pain bro. I had to cut out cereal all together because a) I LOVE it, and b) it's WAY too easy to overeat. Have you ever tried to eat an actual serving size? Usually 3/4 cup, never more then 1 cup - that's TINY. A typical american 'bowl' of cereal is easily 2 cups, probably more.

I love Kashi Toasted Berry Crumble and Honey Almond Flax - but had to stop buying both simply because I was out of control.

PS - don't get fooled by 'friendly' sounding sweeteners. The Kashi cereals use evaporated cane juice crystals - which is a less refined then table sugar (sucrose) but it's sugar nonetheless. Watch for these!

[zaggahamma]

I feel your pain bro. I had to cut out cereal all together because a) I LOVE it, and b) it's WAY too easy to overeat. Have you ever tried to eat an actual serving size? Usually 3/4 cup, never more then 1 cup - that's TINY. A typical american 'bowl' of cereal is easily 2 cups, probably more.

I love Kashi Toasted Berry Crumble and Honey Almond Flax - but had to stop buying both simply because I was out of control.

PS - don't get fooled by 'friendly' sounding sweeteners. The Kashi cereals use evaporated cane juice crystals - which is a less refined then table sugar (sucrose) but it's sugar nonetheless. Watch for these!

it still should show if on the nutri information as sugar though, yes?

example it will show serving size 3/4 cup, 1 cup, whatever...

then when u see sugars below..whatever figure shows there is the amount of total sugar in THAT SAID SERVING...

[gbrice75]

it still should show if on the nutri information as sugar though, yes?

example it will show serving size 3/4 cup, 1 cup, whatever...

then when u see sugars below..whatever figure shows there is the amount of total sugar in THAT SAID SERVING...

Yep, it still shows as sugar, but then people look at the ingredients, and if it doesn't actually say SUGAR or HFCS, people think it's some kind of 'safe' organic sugar... no such thing.

[bigslick7878]

Cereal should not be part of any bodybuilding diet, period.

[BrysZ]

Read somewhere the two worst foods are french fries and boxed cerals because of their combination of bad carbs and sugar/fat

[gbrice75]

Read somewhere the two worst foods are french fries and boxed cerals because of their combination of bad carbs and sugar/fat

Among other things, agreed! Obviously there are some cereals that are way more acceptable then others, but generally speaking i'd agree they have no real place in a BBing diet. Save cereal for cheat meals if you love it that much. That's what I had to do with my beloved Kashi.

[Twist]

Read somewhere the two worst foods are french fries and boxed cerals because of their combination of bad carbs and sugar/fat

Cake is probably the worst. Frosting = insulin spike and fat = fat storage add to that like 1,000calories of it

Sugar in combination with dietary fat = fat storage

[Sicko]

MMmmm jelly filled doughnuts...Are those bad for me?

[gbrice75]

I just made a bunch of cookies with the wife (yea, I admit I ate some raw batter) - you get a real appreciation for how bad this crap is when you REALLY see what goes into it. Just a mixture of pure fat (butter) and sugar... the perfect recipe for bodyfat. Then add the various peanut butters, nuts, eggs, candies, etc and it's just that much worse.

[FireGuy]

I am not a fan of simple sugars and I have little, if any in my diet. That said, we tend to overlook a few things. We put a ton of importance on the glycogen index yet not nearly as much into the glycogen load. Some people will avoid 10 grams of sugar like it's the plague but will take in 5-10x that amount in complex carbs without a 2nd thought. Also, a meal high in fiber and protein will help offset the rapid insulin release of simple sugars. I am not banging the drum for us to all go out and eat candy bars just saying there is more to the equation.

[Twist]

I am not a fan of simple sugars and I have little, if any in my diet. That said, we tend to overlook a few things. We put a ton of importance on the glycogen index yet not nearly as much into the glycogen load. Some people will avoid 10 grams of sugar like it's the plague but will take in 5-10x that amount in complex carbs without a 2nd thought. Also, a meal high in fiber and protein will help offset the rapid insulin release of simple sugars. I am not banging the drum for us to all go out and eat candy bars just saying there is more to the equation.

It's not the total calories, its the insulin spike coupled with the fat. I let most of my clients eat some sort of high gi candy as long as it is never coupled with a meal or with any fat; only once or twice per week and under 200cals.

Keep in mind a lot of their physique goals are not what we are trying to achieve and some compromises are necessary.

[FireGuy]

I hear what you are saying but I dont think you are hearing what I am. 10 grams of sugar is not going to cause much of an insulin spike, especially if taken with some protein and/or fiber. You are much more likely to add bodyfat off of 50 grams of complex carbs as opposed to 10 grams of simple ones with all other factors the same.

I am not speaking against complex carbs, I am as pro carb as there is on this board. I am saying again, pay just as much attention to glycogen load as glycemic index.

[FireGuy]

For the record Twist, I am not disagreeing with anything you are saying. Just bringing up other points to consider.

[bigslick7878]

I don't know much about glycemic load but came across this when googling.

http://www.mendosa.com/gilists.htm

This is the definitive table for both the glycemic index and the glycemic load. I am able to reproduce it here courtesy of the author, Professor Jennie Brand-Miller of the University of Sydney. It is based on a table in different format but no more foods published December 2008 in Diabetes Care. However, only the abstract is free online there.

GI of 55 is low; GL of 10 is low.

This table includes the glycemic index and glycemic load of more than 2,480 individual food items. Not all of them, however, are available in the United States. They represent a true international effort of testing around the world.

The glycemic index (GI) is a numerical system of measuring how much of a rise in circulating blood sugar a carbohydrate triggers–the higher the number, the greater the blood sugar response. So a low GI food will cause a small rise, while a high GI food will trigger a dramatic spike. A list of carbohydrates with their glycemic values is shown below. A GI is 70 or more is high, a GI of 56 to 69 inclusive is medium, and a GI of 55 or less is low.

The glycemic load (GL) is a relatively new way to assess the impact of carbohydrate consumption that takes the glycemic index into account, but gives a fuller picture than does glycemic index alone. A GI value tells you only how rapidly a particular carbohydrate turns into sugar. It doesn't tell you how much of that carbohydrate is in a serving of a particular food. You need to know both things to understand a food's effect on blood sugar. That is where glycemic load comes in. The carbohydrate in watermelon, for example, has a high GI. But there isn't a lot of it, so watermelon's glycemic load is relatively low. A GL of 20 or more is high, a GL of 11 to 19 inclusive is medium, and a GL of 10 or less is low.

Foods that have a low GL almost always have a low GI. Foods with an intermediate or high GL range from very low to very high GI.

Both GI and GL are listed here. The GI is of foods based on the glucose index–where glucose is set to equal 100. The other is the glycemic load, which is the glycemic index divided by 100 multiplied by its available carbohydrate content (i.e. carbohydrates minus fiber) in grams. (The "Serve size (g)" column is the serving size in grams for calculating the glycemic load; for simplicity of presentation I have left out an intermediate column that shows the available carbohydrates in the stated serving sizes.) Take, watermelon as an example of calculating glycemic load. Its glycemic index is pretty high, about 72. According to the calculations by the people at the University of Sydney's Human Nutrition Unit, in a serving of 120 grams it has 6 grams of available carbohydrate per serving, so its glycemic load is pretty low, 72/100*6=4.32, rounded to 4.

They heave pretty much every food under the sun listed with the GH load, maybe if I get a week of spare time I can go through it.

[Twist]

I hear what you are saying but I dont think you are hearing what I am. 10 grams of sugar is not going to cause much of an insulin spike, especially if taken with some protein and/or fiber. You are much more likely to add bodyfat off of 50 grams of complex carbs as opposed to 10 grams of simple ones with all other factors the same.

I am not speaking against complex carbs, I am as pro carb as there is on this board. I am saying again, pay just as much attention to glycogen load as glycemic index.

I am sure you are correct about the bold and I agree completely. But in the situation above we are taking a high gi carbohydrate, adding nutrients (protein and fiber) to make it a low gi, then comparing it to another low gi (this time naturally low) but 5x the amount.

Now this part is off topic, but I am wondering what would add more fat
Meal 1
10g sugar = 40cals
2g fat = 18cals
0g protein = o cals
total is 58 cals. Assume that although the fat is added to the meal, the sugars gi remains the same because the fat doesn't slow down absorption at all.

Meal 2
30g low gi carb = 120 cals
Now this is double the calories but there is not much of an insulin spike and there is no dietary fat.

what would you rather eat and why Fireguy?

Keep in mind I don't know the right answer (if there is one). I would probably take the 30g carbs over the fat and sugar meal even though it has more calories

For the record Twist, I am not disagreeing with anything you are saying. Just bringing up other points to consider.

I realize this man. I don't get upset if people disagree with me anyway. There is nothing wrong with that. When two people disagree both of them have an opportunity to learn something, no matter who is right.

[mg0922]

wow, i really need to take a food nutrition class or something. Just when i feel like im learning alot , i see the whole other side of things. so frustraing.


so much to read/learn , and alot of it i just dont comprehend. All this talk about GH and GI and glcogen loads and idex. i am far too uneducated about all this stuff. and i know to really be disiplined and have the body i want. Id have to know all this stuff. ughhhhhhhh frustratingggggggg

thx for the comments everyone, and thx for showing me how dumb i am lol

[POPS]

wow, i really need to take a food nutrition class or something. Just when i feel like im learning alot , i see the whole other side of things. so frustraing.


so much to read/learn , and alot of it i just dont comprehend. All this talk about GH and GI and glcogen loads and idex. i am far too uneducated about all this stuff. and i know to really be disiplined and have the body i want. Id have to know all this stuff. ughhhhhhhh frustratingggggggg

thx for the comments everyone, and thx for showing me how dumb i am lol

Not at all bro. This is where you should be asking questions. And believe me, these guys here are the ones to listen to.

They changed my life......

[gbrice75]

wow, i really need to take a food nutrition class or something. Just when i feel like im learning alot , i see the whole other side of things. so frustraing.


so much to read/learn , and alot of it i just dont comprehend. All this talk about GH and GI and glcogen loads and idex. i am far too uneducated about all this stuff. and i know to really be disiplined and have the body i want. Id have to know all this stuff. ughhhhhhhh frustratingggggggg

thx for the comments everyone, and thx for showing me how dumb i am lol

You're here to learn bro, and like with anything else, the more educated you become, the more questions you have and you see there is even more to learn.

The above bold isn't really true. All you need is a basic understanding of what your body does, why, and how to manipulate it in your favor. When you're confused or don't understand, ask! Nobody here is gonna knock you for asking a question, even if YOU think it sounds dumb.

[zaggahamma]

You're here to learn bro, and like with anything else, the more educated you become, the more questions you have and you see there is even more to learn.

The above bold isn't really true. All you need is a basic understanding of what your body does, why, and how to manipulate it in your favor. When you're confused or don't understand, ask! Nobody here is gonna knock you for asking a question, even if YOU think it sounds dumb.

was thinking the same thing but thought better coming from the guru

[gbrice75]

was thinking the same thing but thought better coming from the guru

guru GIMP!

[FireGuy]

I am sure you are correct about the bold and I agree completely. But in the situation above we are taking a high gi carbohydrate, adding nutrients (protein and fiber) to make it a low gi, then comparing it to another low gi (this time naturally low) but 5x the amount.

Now this part is off topic, but I am wondering what would add more fat
Meal 1
10g sugar = 40cals
2g fat = 18cals
0g protein = o cals
total is 58 cals. Assume that although the fat is added to the meal, the sugars gi remains the same because the fat doesn't slow down absorption at all.

Meal 2
30g low gi carb = 120 cals
Now this is double the calories but there is not much of an insulin spike and there is no dietary fat.

what would you rather eat and why Fireguy?

Keep in mind I don't know the right answer (if there is one). I would probably take the 30g carbs over the fat and sugar meal even though it has more calories


I realize this man. I don't get upset if people disagree with me anyway. There is nothing wrong with that. When two people disagree both of them have an opportunity to learn something, no matter who is right.

Great question Twist, I really had to think about it and my answer would be,,,,"it's hard to answer the question in a vacuum". It would really depend on a combination of other factors. That said, I will say this, neither of the two scenarios asked will have much if an impact. For arguments sake, if our glycogen stores were 100% full and my goal was to lose bodyfat/bodyweight. I would choose the lower calorie/higher sugar meal. I base this on the simple fact the insulin release will be minimal and there are only 18 associated fat calories with it as well. The key being this one has a little less than half the calories of meal two and I dont believe insulin related fat storage is a concern with meal one with the macros at the levels listed.

[Twist]

Great question Twist, I really had to think about it and my answer would be,,,,"it's hard to answer the question in a vacuum". It would really depend on a combination of other factors. That said, I will say this, neither of the two scenarios asked will have much if an impact. For arguments sake, if our glycogen stores were 100% full and my goal was to lose bodyfat/bodyweight. I would choose the lower calorie/higher sugar meal. I base this on the simple fact the insulin release will be minimal and there are only 18 associated fat calories with it as well. The key being this one has a little less than half the calories of meal two and I dont believe insulin related fat storage is a concern with meal one with the macros at the levels listed.

Thanks for the reply Fire. I am enjoying this lol. Ever since I made up my mind about the fat and sugar calories never being combined I have made great leaps with my clients. I agree with you completely in everything you said above. I wish there was a way for me to find out the answer to this.

In real life the calories are usually much more though. In real life its usually a piece of cake with sugar and fat equaling 600 cals or no fat cookies equalling about the same. Something like that.

[mg0922]

hey thx alot for the comments gbrice, and everyone else. I will continue to read and pat attention on here. im laid off of work now so i have plentyyy of time..

One question i want to get an idea of, which i have done some reading on and thats "insulin spikes"

So what im reading from you guys is that eating the bad sugar along with fat with cause a "bad "insulin spike? Which will store it as fat?

I read after you work out you want to use your insulin spike as an advantage dont you? like eating protein and carbs...what does that do to your insulin to HELP your body. I dont even know what insuline does, so ill have to study that. I want to be able to use it in my favor and have it help me.

alot of questions haha i wanna know this stuff!!!!!

[mg0922]

i found this good website all about this kind of stuff and its very interesting! they say to have a WHEY protien shake with SIMPLE CARBS! Like dextrose!!! I just learned about exactly what i should eat and when i should eat it after my work out!!

http://www.intense-workout.com/post_workout.html

great site!

mg

[Twist]

You only want an insulin spike when you are trying to gain weight. Insulin is basically a storage hormone. It shuttles all of the nutrients (good and bad) into there designated places. The way you get an insulin spike is by eating a fast digesting carbohydrate. The faster the carb digests, the bigger the spike.

You can slow down the speed at which a carb is digested by mixing it with other nutrients such as protein and fats. Your stomach holds all of the food you eat until everything is done being digested. This is good if you want to slow down a carbs digestion speed, but keep in mind that certain foods will ferment in your digestive tract and this can make your stomach upset and give you gas etc.

Now if you spike your insulin and give your body protein then this protein will be shuttled to your muscles and anywhere else it is needed. If you spike your insulin and give your body fat, like Fire and I were discussing above, your body will shuttle this fat into your fat stores.

Keep in mind also that lipolysis (fat burning) WILL NOT occur when insulin is present. So if you think it is a good idea to spike your insulin after a workout keep in mind that you will halt fat burning in its tracks.

Diet and insulin especially is VERY VERY complicated. I still don't have my head around it completely. But dieting can be made easy when you apply this principle to everything you consider putting in your mouth:
If you can hunt it, grow it, or pick it, you can eat. Fruit is a special dessert only.

[mg0922]

twist,
thank you so much for that information. Im getting a better grasp on the whole thing a little better now. Like you as well im not grasping it completeley..

Keep in mind also that lipolysis (fat burning) WILL NOT occur when insulin is present. So if you think it is a good idea to spike your insulin after a workout keep in mind that you will halt fat burning in its tracks.



With this statement in mind, I am trying to gain lean muscle, and i have very little body fat. But i can always use a little fat burnt on my stomach to make my six pac look better. Like the bottom of my stomach, Ill always have like little tiny bit of fat there. I could also cut up my six pack more ,to make it look alot better. But for the moment, the diet i am currently creating is a bulk diet. I dont know if id call it a clean or dirty bulk, i guess you all will have to determine that once i get it all together and posted up there.

So if there a way i can send the protien directly to my muscles after a workout to help increase weight, AND burn fat at the same time?

Its really not that big of a deal to focus on burning any fat now. I just wanna gain some lean muscle mass.

Thank you for you feedback. Im loving all the information.

mg

[Twist]

I always do complex carbs. Idk how complex they really are, but I don't do sugar. But you can get away with either if you want. Post up pics and I can give you some guidance as to what to do with your ab situation