So many cheat meal questions - my turn bitches!

[Damienm05]

Title says it. Everyone asks about cheat meals and I'm the eternal Nazi with regard to the subject. My response is always a variation of, "Go for it but you cancel out progress made during the week - ultimately this drives you a lot more insane than just embracing the cravings and sticking to your diet."

I like my response because it's the responsible one and I'm not one for telling people what they want to hear. In the case of remote trainees and other guys set on having one, I give them a protocol for it. PWO following either legs, back, or full-body - high protein, high carb, fat as low as you can without making the meal suck. Try to ensure calories don't exceed 1500 of TDEE for the day. One meal, get stuffed but it's the last of the day other than a before-bed shake.

Well, I haven't eaten anything "good" in weeks and I'm not even cutting. Just been wrapped up in work. So, in about 10 minutes, I'm going to the gym with a gallon of distilled mixed with BCAAs and glutamine and walking into the personal training office to steal a scoop of my co-workers' pre-workout powder. I'm going to crank up some obnoxious southern rap and do the most ridiculous full-body workout of all time. I will then be walking accross the street to stuff my face at a buffet among the obese. I am going to update this thread with the results tomorrow morning. I'm hoping to be vascular, filled out, and pumping but my hypothesis is that I won't receive any benefit beyond what my normal diet would have achieved.

Stay tuned. I'll be an impartial guinea pig, I promise.

[MBMETC]

Go get em fatboy...lol

[gbrice75]

I want a detailed report of everything you stuff in your mouth!

[Reed]

I believe that cheat meals is a greatly misunderstood concept. Really there is NO need to deviate to poorer food choices.

What I believe needs to become a more frequently asked question for the serious bodybuilder is refeeds, increasing insulin sensitivity, and leptin levels.

However I'll be the first one to admit Yeah I do eat poorer food choices during offseason. Pizza, burgers, fried chicken, etc. Sorry if that disappoints some. Though probably not as frequently as some as Im pretty adaptive to eating healthy in order not to feel sick to my stomach.

Contest time I turn to calculated refeeds. Like I am now. My "cheat" meal..... 96% lean ground beef w/ rice.

[Damienm05]

I want a detailed report of everything you stuff in your mouth!

Well you know me, nothing too dirty in the food department lol. I went to an authentic Chinese Dim Sum/Seafood buffet. You know it's good when you're the only white guy. Anyway, had:

- Like 24 oz. of Mongolian/Korean/Teriyaki meats. Mostly beef (Yeah...)
- About 5 servings of various noodles/pasta
- 2-3 cups if various rice (mango sticky, fried, steamed lotus leaf)
- Plates of Crab legs, bodies, squid, shrimp. Maybe 16 oz. of seafood meat
- 8-10 pieces assorted sushi
- 12-15 pieces assorted dim sum
- 1 cup tapioca pudding, 2 cups soft serve, 2 egg tarts, like 1/2 a watermelon and other fruits.

Stuffed.

[Damienm05]

I believe that cheat meals is a greatly misunderstood concept. Really there is NO need to deviate to poorer food choices.

What I believe needs to become a more frequently asked question for the serious bodybuilder is refeeds, increasing insulin sensitivity, and leptin levels.

However I'll be the first one to admit Yeah I do eat poorer food choices during offseason. Pizza, burgers, fried chicken, etc. Sorry if that disappoints some. Though probably not as frequently as some as Im pretty adaptive to eating healthy in order not to feel sick to my stomach.

Contest time I turn to calculated refeeds. Like I am now. My "cheat" meal..... 96% lean ground beef w/ rice.

Good post. I rarely eat badly either just as my tastebuds/stomach have adjusted to this lifestyle. If it happens, it happens but to schedule poor food choices is asinine.

[MBMETC]

I believe that cheat meals is a greatly misunderstood concept. Really there is NO need to deviate to poorer food choices.

What I believe needs to become a more frequently asked question for the serious bodybuilder is refeeds, increasing insulin sensitivity, and leptin levels.

However I'll be the first one to admit Yeah I do eat poorer food choices during offseason. Pizza, burgers, fried chicken, etc. Sorry if that disappoints some. Though probably not as frequently as some as Im pretty adaptive to eating healthy in order not to feel sick to my stomach.

Contest time I turn to calculated refeeds. Like I am now. My "cheat" meal..... 96% lean ground beef w/ rice.

This does not disappoint me, it gives me hope.....mmmmmm pizza

I'm strict as sh@@ my last cheat was a 93/7 lean meat cheese burger w/2% cheese on a whole wheat roll, that's right a whole wheat I ain't playing..lol

[Reed]

I enjoy life when I can. Yeah Im dedicated to the bodybuilding lifestyle but to convince yourself that "hey eating this powdered creme stuff donut is keeping things going" is completely ignorant.

Like I said scheduled refeeds, research the hormone leptin

[SlimmerMe]

I enjoy life when I can. Yeah Im dedicated to the bodybuilding lifestyle but to convince yourself that "hey eating this powdered creme stuff donut is keeping things going" is completely ignorant.

Like I said scheduled refeeds, research the hormone leptin

I will but could you please help elaborate as to your take on leptin please Reed?

[Reed]

Leptin is a protein hormone that is secreted by fats cells and the amount of leptin in a person's body is directly related to the amount of fat on a person.

In some cases you are starving yourself in order to burn fat and your body has evolved to survive not burn fat.

When starving yourself your body takes action physically and psychologically. The body begins to take steps to survive such as a decline in metabolism and leptin levels independant of body fat.

I've read studies where injection of leptin (lol) lessened the decline in metabolism, raised t3,t4 hormones and subjects were less hungry.

Now for the rest of the world this isn't realistic so we need to find other methods. Refeed days. High carbs, cals, low in saturated fat IMO is what is best.

This will replenish the body of the nutrients it has needed causing a restoration of the body.

I personally do this when trying to get competion ripped the last few weeks. Typically 3 days of mainly fibrous veggies carb sources followed by 1 day of starchy sources at much higher quanity. This as seemed to help me burn fat really fast and even build lean muscle. But I know their are many roads to the same goal though

[RaginCajun]

is there anyway to manipulate/regulate your body's leptin level?

sorry to hijack!

[Damienm05]

Workout was grotesquely sweaty this morning. That's saying something since it was delts/traps/abs/calves - not legs, lol. No strength increase but I can't deny the pump was better than usual - I'll go into this below. Still, nothing to convince me that this was a necessary or even beneficial move. I simply enjoyed the meal, slept great, and woke up fuller in my face/neck with noticeable subcutaneous water increase around my pelvic bone especially.

Understand that my calories have been consistently above maintenance with an interesting set-up. Basically been running 6 of my 8 meals as keto. 6-8 oz. of fish, fibrous veggies, and 20g fat via healthy sources. Anyway, my pre/PWO meals each contain 60g carbs via WM starch as well as 50g whey isolate, and in the case of the pre-workout shake, 15g fat from coconut/macadamia/walnut nut oils to slow absorption. As such, conventional wisdom would state that this "carb-up" of sorts, would really be beneficial to my workout intensity and strength but the fact of the matter is - I'm already getting plenty of calories and energy (fat) on a daily basis for my sustained aerobic metabolism with just enough carbs to keep the engine firing on all cylinders when talking about anaerobic exercise at high intensity - ATP system/metabolism.

My finding: In this brief, informal, and possibly all too half-assed study - I've concluded that the need for a cheat meal/Re-feed, even on a carb-restriced diet, is minimal/nonexistent provided day-to-day caloric intake and intake of energy sources as needed to fuel bodybuilding pursuits is sufficient. My results would have been different if this were a true keto diet or other type of heavily calorie restricted carb-cycle. The fact remains, however, that I was not bearing the burden of starvation, fully depleted levels of muscle glycogen, electrolytes, or preparing for an athletic exertion of energy beyond normal (a marathon, NFL Sunday, double-OT hockey game, etc). Thus, don't let yourself justify meals like this when bulking or maintaining - you simply increase the odds of body fat increase. When cutting - keep them few and far between and only if you have a realistic, achievable goal of replenishing depleted muscle glycogen levels in preparation for such athletic exertion.

The end.

[kalspic]

i think everything you ate in that one sitting could feed a family of four. but other than that good post. very interesting. its good to see people dieting outside the norm.

[rueboy]

I often wonder about the effects that "cheat meal" has, i would have 1 per week. Im single again as of 2 months ago, and my training and diet is spot on, but how do you take a women out and just eat diet foods, ahh well!

[Damienm05]

I am single and quite pimpin' if I do say so myself. Meaning I go on several dates per week. Usually nice restaurants where I can just have them Sear me some Rockfish or something over greens - I always hold the starch/sauce on the side. I don't get dessert and if they say anything, I just say I'm on a diet (this usually opens up a whole new vein of conversation where first they say, "it shows" and then it turns into an hour long conversation where they ask me everything they've ever wanted to know about nutrition/diet lol).

I used to always chalk dates up as a semi-cheat meal but every since implementing the above protocol, they're actually far more enjoyable. I do worry that It may make her self conscious so I'm always sure to include a statement about how, "but you look great - I have my own reasons - sure you don't want dessert?!" or something but yeah - really opens up a topic of conversation that everyone wants to learn more about.

In the same vein, women are the reason I don't have cheat meals more often, even when I can afford them and just "maintaining" - I always want to look/feel my best and being bloated/sweaty/gassy from cheating is a big no-no for my lifestyle.

[gbrice75]

Workout was grotesquely sweaty this morning. That's saying something since it was delts/traps/abs/calves - not legs, lol. No strength increase but I can't deny the pump was better than usual - I'll go into this below. Still, nothing to convince me that this was a necessary or even beneficial move. I simply enjoyed the meal, slept great, and woke up fuller in my face/neck with noticeable subcutaneous water increase around my pelvic bone especially.

Understand that my calories have been consistently above maintenance with an interesting set-up. Basically been running 6 of my 8 meals as keto. 6-8 oz. of fish, fibrous veggies, and 20g fat via healthy sources. Anyway, my pre/PWO meals each contain 60g carbs via WM starch as well as 50g whey isolate, and in the case of the pre-workout shake, 15g fat from coconut/macadamia/walnut nut oils to slow absorption. As such, conventional wisdom would state that this "carb-up" of sorts, would really be beneficial to my workout intensity and strength but the fact of the matter is - I'm already getting plenty of calories and energy (fat) on a daily basis for my sustained aerobic metabolism with just enough carbs to keep the engine firing on all cylinders when talking about anaerobic exercise at high intensity - ATP system/metabolism.

My finding: In this brief, informal, and possibly all too half-assed study - I've concluded that the need for a cheat meal/Re-feed, even on a carb-restriced diet, is minimal/nonexistent provided day-to-day caloric intake and intake of energy sources as needed to fuel bodybuilding pursuits is sufficient. My results would have been different if this were a true keto diet or other type of heavily calorie restricted carb-cycle. The fact remains, however, that I was not bearing the burden of starvation, fully depleted levels of muscle glycogen, electrolytes, or preparing for an athletic exertion of energy beyond normal (a marathon, NFL Sunday, double-OT hockey game, etc). Thus, don't let yourself justify meals like this when bulking or maintaining - you simply increase the odds of body fat increase. When cutting - keep them few and far between and only if you have a realistic, achievable goal of replenishing depleted muscle glycogen levels in preparation for such athletic exertion.

The end.

Very interesting self-observation. However, the question begs to be asked - what is your current goal? You are eating above maintenance, and to my knowledge you have relatively low bodyfat, so I don't think you're cutting. Correct me if i'm wrong.

Where i'm going is this; you felt no added benefit in terms of strength, etc. However, if you were/are cutting, you wouldn't know the effect this had on bodyfat (leptin secretion specifically, as Reed was talking about) until having done it consistently for a month or so. What are your thoughts?

[Damienm05]

Very interesting self-observation. However, the question begs to be asked - what is your current goal? You are eating above maintenance, and to my knowledge you have relatively low bodyfat, so I don't think you're cutting. Correct me if i'm wrong.

Where i'm going is this; you felt no added benefit in terms of strength, etc. However, if you were/are cutting, you wouldn't know the effect this had on bodyfat (leptin secretion specifically, as Reed was talking about) until having done it consistently for a month or so. What are your thoughts?

I suppose I was remiss for not elaborating on my current goal. Basically, just trying to gain strength and lean mass slow/steady without any of the bloat/sweatiness/gas I'd experience on a typical 300g + carb/day diet. In general, I left out some pivotal info in that really triggered my interest was that I see everyone doing carb cycle diets wanting to schedule regular cheat meals. Not really to fuel the fat loss fire or with any knowledge of what leptin really is but merely because they think it's needed to keep the engine firing on all cylinders.

Therefore, I was killing two birds with one stone in A) wanting to eat a monster meal that included meat and B) wanting to prove that, as stated above, provided that day-to-day energy intake is sufficient, you don't need a re-feed to maintain optimal workout intensity/strength even if you're restricting carbs/calories. And again, talking about moderate restriction, not keto or a 1200 calorie/day starve.

Now, I have to concede; I'm so anal and strict about my diet when I am cutting that I've never implemented techniques for manipulating leptin secretion in order to prevent stalled fat loss or merely to optimize. I agree 100% that it's a good idea but now we're not really talking about a cheat meal, we're talking about first depleting the body of energy/glycogen fully and then over-compensating with nutrition via high starchy carbs/heavy insulin response. Most guys' cheat meals will never achieve that. But yeah, now that I'm finally mastering this, "it doesn't have to be all or nothing" concept; I think it is a good idea for those who have the willpower to shake off a heavy re-feed the next day. Also, I must emphasize it should always be few and far between and the results should be monitored extensively because everyone is different.

All I know is that, not talking about optimizing here, I've always achieved my fat loss goals quickly because when cutting, I don't cheat. More quickly than those who do. More quickly than when I did.

[gbrice75]

^ ^ great info, and thanks for the clarification! =)

[Damienm05]

I mean, what are your thoughts? Like me, you've been doing the trial and error thing for a while now and like me, I know you have a tendency to justify excess calories sometimes when on a more relaxed diet.