Protein myth on cycle

[PowerliftWill]

Been reading a lot of threads with Narkissos advice and knowledge in them and im starting to see that protein in excess above 1.5lb/lb bodyweight is just a waste. Im starting to believe him seeing as going above that with less carbs has had no impact on my training, besides make me full all the time and partially constipated compared to normal and not to mention pretty bloated. I'm always seeing posts of people at 180-200 lbs hitting 400+ grams of protein daily yet they seem to be a lot smaller than the people who are getting much less, it seems ridiculous really. If any of the vets could elaborate like marcus or big or anyone whose in contact with narkissos that would be cool. i think alot of newbies could save some time by dropping protein and upping carbs.

[awms]

Steroids allow you to absorb much larger amounts of protein due to the increase nitrogen retention in the muscle...that is just plain science so yes of course you can and should take in more protein then when off cycle mostly to get the full benifit of the compounds or compound that you are using.

IMO calories are king when it come to size and then protein comes in close second. Most of the people who cant put on size have adequate amount of protein and not enouph calories so the body is unable to put on size.

For example lets say we take three men (Lets call them man A. and Man B. and Man C.) and put them all on 500mg of test a week but put then on very diffrent diets!

Man A - 500g of protein/ 1500cals
Man B - 100g protein/ 5000 cals a day
Man C - 400g of protein/ 5000 cals a day

Who do you think would grow the most and the least? Man A would prob put on much much less size than both B and C, Man B would grow and put on alot of size due to the calorie surplus, but Man C would prob grow much much more than both A and B because he has a better balance of noth cals and protein.

[scotty51312]

I personally go by 1.5-2grams per lb of LBM not total weight. For example a 200lb guy at 20% bf would have a LBM of 160lbs and would need 240g a day of protien, instead of the 300 they would need if they went with 1.5g per lb of total weight

[PowerliftWill]

Steroids allow you to absorb much larger amounts of protein due to the increase nitrogen retention in the muscle...that is just plain science so yes of course you can and should take in more protein then when off cycle mostly to get the full benifit of the compounds or compound that you are using.

IMO calories are king when it come to size and then protein comes in close second. Most of the people who cant put on size have adequate amount of protein and not enouph calories so the body is unable to put on size.

For example lets say we take three men (Lets call them man A. and Man B. and Man C.) and put them all on 500mg of test a week but put then on very diffrent diets!

Man A - 500g of protein/ 1500cals
Man B - 100g protein/ 5000 cals a day
Man C - 400g of protein/ 5000 cals a day

Who do you think would grow the most and the least? Man A would prob put on much much less size than both B and C, Man B would grow and put on alot of size due to the calorie surplus, but Man C would prob grow much much more than both A and B because he has a better balance of noth cals and protein.

I understand you reasoning and obviously man c would grow the best. But you have no info on man c. if he's 180lbs, that's a ridiculous amount of protein and probably not the best approach. If he's 250lbs then im sure that would work great. I'm not saying you shouldn't take more protein on cycle than off. Everyone knows you should, im just trying to figure out the extent in which it's exaggerated. Some people say hit 2.5 per lb when on...for and average guy of 200lbs that's 500 grams protein!!!! Ridiculous if you ask me.

[LatissimusaurousRex]

Hi, I'm far from a vet, but I thought I'd just throw my 2 cents in.

I think it's just the fact that all the information everyone learns in the beginning months or years of lifting it is either flawed, wrong, or just broscience. A lot of people will hear you need to have a high protein diet, it needs to be X times your body weight. Which is true... to an extent, but no one can really just base their diet off how much protein they "think" they should be taking in. Eventually (some) people learn the more proper way to diet and learn how to hone in on how their body responds to the different macro-nutrients and what they should be taking in to reach their goal. When these "newbies" come on here and post their diet I imagine it is usually corrected. You can only help the people that are willing to be helped.

[PowerliftWill]

I personally go by 1.5-2grams per lb of LBM not total weight. For example a 200lb guy at 20% bf would have a LBM of 160lbs and would need 240g a day of protien, instead of the 300 they would need if they went with 1.5g per lb of total weight

That's exactly what i was thinking would be more logical and correct. So many people on cycle say 2-2.5g/lb BODYWEIGHT to max out gains. it seems like overkill

[brad1986]

I personally go by 1.5-2grams per lb of LBM not total weight. For example a 200lb guy at 20% bf would have a LBM of 160lbs and would need 240g a day of protien, instead of the 300 they would need if they went with 1.5g per lb of total weight

^^^^agreed! Total wt means nothing its what your lbm is. and yes going over 2 grams per lb of body wt UNLESS ON CYCLE is a waste. Carbs and fats need to be increased to achieve higher calories

[PowerliftWill]

^^^^agreed! Total wt means nothing its what your lbm is. and yes going over 2 grams per lb of body wt UNLESS ON CYCLE is a waste. Carbs and fats need to be increased to achieve higher calories

i hope you meant 2g/lb of LBM unless on cycle is useless...

[wantaesthetics]

there was a brilliant study comparing protein intake of men who were on placebo in 1 group and men who were on 500mgs or so of test in another. They varied the levels of protein intake to see if there was a change in muscle gain and the rest of the diet along with cals and training was standardized.

I have scoured the internet and pubmed trying to find it and I freaking can't. It basically spelled out how much protein was required. It was clearly more in the group with test but I just can't remember how much. I think it might have been around the 1.5g/lb mark you guys are citing but let me try and look for it again. BRB

[Natureboy71]

Even on cycle I have found for myself that if I am getting 300g or Protein or 400g with everything else being equal makes no difference. When on cycle I like about 300g (which is about 1.5 for me) protein but increase my total carbs (if bulking) and total overall calories by doing that.

It's when I am cutting I want 400g protein and lower my carbs substantially to help maintain the muscle.

[PowerliftWill]

Even on cycle I have found for myself that if I am getting 300g or Protein or 400g with everything else being equal makes no difference. When on cycle I like about 300g (which is about 1.5 for me) protein but increase my total carbs (if bulking) and total overall calories by doing that.

It's when I am cutting I want 400g protein and lower my carbs substantially to help maintain the muscle.

Glad to see more people go this route. Im mostly checkin this out because i havent noticed a different between 1.5g/lb and whatever else above, and since money is tight right now, instead of wasting protein may as well buy more carbs like i should be for bulking anyway which is cheaper than protein sources.

[maxwkw]

Steroids allow you to absorb much larger amounts of protein due to the increase nitrogen retention in the muscle...that is just plain science so yes of course you can and should take in more protein then when off cycle mostly to get the full benifit of the compounds or compound that you are using.

IMO calories are king when it come to size and then protein comes in close second. Most of the people who cant put on size have adequate amount of protein and not enouph calories so the body is unable to put on size.

For example lets say we take three men (Lets call them man A. and Man B. and Man C.) and put them all on 500mg of test a week but put then on very diffrent diets!

Man A - 500g of protein/ 1500cals
Man B - 100g protein/ 5000 cals a day
Man C - 400g of protein/ 5000 cals a day

Who do you think would grow the most and the least? Man A would prob put on much much less size than both B and C, Man B would grow and put on alot of size due to the calorie surplus, but Man C would prob grow much much more than both A and B because he has a better balance of noth cals and protein.

Man A's diet is impossible. Protein is 4Cals/g so 500g of protein is 2000 calories.

[bjpennnn]

it depends on what type of protein sources you are getting your protein from.

[maxwkw]

no it doesn't. Protein is always 4Cals/gram

[PowerliftWill]

no it doesn't. Protein is always 4Cals/gram

guys who cares? The point he was trying to make was too much protein and not enough cals and you wont grow. period. lets get back on track....

Any other vets out there that follow similar approaches? (1.5g/lb protein and no more)

[bjpennnn]

Not sure if that response is to me...But as of the last month i have only been using whole foods for protein sources and My body has made a huge transformation. a 50 gram whey iso shake after your workout Your body is not going to absorb all of that in a 15 min time table. But if you 50 gram chicken breast it would over the next 4-6 hours. So my point it you can have a constant flow of amino acids protein as your disposale each hour if you mix up your protein sources. Meaning you would see a difference in 300 grams of whole food protein is used correctly over using protein shakes. So you could eat more protein and your body would utilize it better.

[maxwkw]

sorry for being a smart ass.

Anecdotally I have heard that people continue to do better as they increase protein approaching 2g/lb of bodyweight. But as is stated earlier in the thread it would depend a lot on the rest of the diet as well as genetics and the types and amounts of gear they were using.

[bjpennnn]

obviously there are a ton of other factors that come in to play but in general i have to agree with the op, I think people do go overboard on protein and some people do not get enough. I see the reasoning behind the people who get to much...When i was younger and i was a hard gainer I thought i was never getting enough protein. I would always think its better to be a little over then a little below and not make gains. I think everyone needs to figure out what works best for them no one is the same.

[PowerliftWill]

obviously there are a ton of other factors that come in to play but in general i have to agree with the op, I think people do go overboard on protein and some people do not get enough. I see the reasoning behind the people who get to much...When i was younger and i was a hard gainer I thought i was never getting enough protein. I would always think its better to be a little over then a little below and not make gains. I think everyone needs to figure out what works best for them no one is the same.

Agreed, though it's obviously when someone whose 180lbs eating 400 grams of protein and not growing still that it's too much. I think for just in general 1.5g/lb should be fine even when on cycle. 1g/lb when off should be okay as well. Just eat enough carbs and fat to make of the caloric difference like most SHOULD be doing.

Your body is only going to be using so much protein no matter how much AAS you are on. I'd also say a good rule of thumb is by your bodyweight. If you're under 200lbs, obviously a shitload a protein isn't your issue, it's enough calories to grow. Now if you 250 and still eating 1.5g even on cycle, maybe bump it up to 2g/lb and work from there. So if your are advanced (meaning over 220 ish with low bf) and been training for years, I think 2g/lb is okay because your actually need it when pushing the upper limits of human weight gain. Now if you're under 200, I think you need to stop tripping of protein and just increase carbs/fats because you obviously aren't eating enough when cycling.

[mrniceguy215]

take this to diet

[brad1986]

i hope you meant 2g/lb of LBM unless on cycle is useless...

thats exactly what i said

[MBMETC]

One word fellas... Genetics

[calstate23]

Been reading a lot of threads with Narkissos advice and knowledge in them and im starting to see that protein in excess above 1.5lb/lb bodyweight is just a waste. Im starting to believe him seeing as going above that with less carbs has had no impact on my training, besides make me full all the time and partially constipated compared to normal and not to mention pretty bloated. I'm always seeing posts of people at 180-200 lbs hitting 400+ grams of protein daily yet they seem to be a lot smaller than the people who are getting much less, it seems ridiculous really. If any of the vets could elaborate like marcus or big or anyone whose in contact with narkissos that would be cool. i think alot of newbies could save some time by dropping protein and upping carbs.

Before anything, a 200 lbs person at 5% and a 200 lbs person at 20% is completely different....Not necessarily based off bodyweight but how much muscle one has...The 200 lbs person at 5% should be taking in more then a 200 lbs person at 20% because he has more muscle...And more muscle means he'll need more protein then the other guy to no only maintain his muscle mass but grow his muscle mass....

I can tell you based off of personal experience and not opinion that I have the best gains at 2 grams of protein per pound of bodyweight while cycling...I cannot speak for everyone, but personally for me, I will see better gains....

[kelevra]

when i was younger and a hard gainer i had to intake higher carbs and not as much pro. Now I'm older and struggle with adding clean weight, I intake close to 2 grams (with as little powder as possible) with carbs at 225 or less. I have spent alot of time this year adjusting and working with different amounts of carbs, pro, and fats. To gain lean. You need far more pro and not normally over 225 to 250 carbs daily. IMO

[LatissimusaurousRex]

It will range from body type to body type and really from person to person what the most effective combo of macros is and it would also be goal dependent.

[jimmyinkedup]

It will range from body type to body type and really from person to person what the most effective combo of macros is and it would also be goal dependent.

Good post..in every aspect. Body type , individual response, and goal...pretty much sums it all up. I would add AAS use as well as i believe that since rate of protein synthesis is increase as well as nitrogen retention the bodies ability to ultilie protein increases to an extent as well.
I recall reading a book by Franco Columbu- he only took in .5 gram/lb of bodyweight and when bulking his strategy was to increase carb intake only! I could NEVER do that given the sensitivity to carbs i have - even when im on cycle. Many factors come into play.
More and more I really think that diet, and every aspect of it, is so personal and so few really take the time to experiment and find what truely works for them. Many times this is because the feel they are doing ok with what they are doing , however lack of expoerimentation could equal missing out on better individual methods.
I do tend to think ,in line with the OP, many take in far more protein than they need. Contrary to popular belief this can adversely effect your progress.

[PowerliftWill]

Good post..in every aspect. Body type , individual response, and goal...pretty much sums it all up. I would add AAS use as well as i believe that since rate of protein synthesis is increase as well as nitrogen retention the bodies ability to ultilie protein increases to an extent as well.
I recall reading a book by Franco Columbu- he only took in .5 gram/lb of bodyweight and when bulking his strategy was to increase carb intake only! I could NEVER do that given the sensitivity to carbs i have - even when im on cycle. Many factors come into play.
More and more I really think that diet, and every aspect of it, is so personal and so few really take the time to experiment and find what truely works for them. Many times this is because the feel they are doing ok with what they are doing , however lack of expoerimentation could equal missing out on better individual methods.
I do tend to think ,in line with the OP, many take in far more protein than they need. Contrary to popular belief this can adversely effect your progress.

Excellent post. That's sort of why I posted this thread. Eating too much protein it seemed was messing with my gains. I think people should base it of their LBM as well. Not just "2g/lb BODYWEIGHT." It should be MAX 2g/lb LBM. So obviously as a few haved stated, the leaner you are, the more protein you would need compared to someone at the same weight but higher BF.

[Turkish Juicer]

Frank Zane won O. twice (besides winning several other competitions, of course) on 200gr of protein at 90kg bodyweight with a BF of 3%-5%.

There is an interview where the journalist asks Sergio Olivia about his daily protein intake and his answer was ''I get only about 40gr of protein per meal.'' Sergio ate no more than 5-6 meals a day, make the calc. yourselves.

Why am I bringing up these two vivid examples? Because these two guys were inarguably among the demigods of BB and I believe they new much better about dieting than a newbie who undertrains and takes twice the daily protein Sergio did per se.

In short, irony has a vibrant role in revealing the truth.

[terraj]

Before anything, a 200 lbs person at 5% and a 200 lbs person at 20% is completely different....Not necessarily based off bodyweight but how much muscle one has...The 200 lbs person at 5% should be taking in more then a 200 lbs person at 20% because he has more muscle...And more muscle means he'll need more protein then the other guy to no only maintain his muscle mass but grow his muscle mass....

I can tell you based off of personal experience and not opinion that I have the best gains at 2 grams of protein per pound of bodyweight while cycling...I cannot speak for everyone, but personally for me, I will see better gains....

Same^ much better gains 2 grams per pound.

In fact I would say most guys not getting the increases they had wanted on cycle would be from not enough protein.

[PowerliftWill]

Same^ much better gains 2 grams per pound.

In fact I would say most guys not getting the increases they had wanted on cycle would be from not enough protein.

I just cannot agree with that, seeing as we have many sub 200lb individuals here cycling and claiming to be taking close to 400grams of protein/ed....

And were the gains simply because of increase caloric intake or do you surely feel it was from the protein?

[terraj]

Claiming...key word.

The other thing lacking is intensity in their training.

Not enough protien , not enough intensity.....or the other way around.

[terraj]

Dbl post

This forum has been freezing up all day...

[PowerliftWill]

Claiming...key word.

The other thing lacking is intensity in their training.

Not enough protien , not enough intensity.....or the other way around.

I'd say it's intensity. Do you really feel over 2g/lb bodyweight does anything? And by that I mean LBM, not just weight. I guess we have differing opinions, and I understand where you're coming from, but I just feel people use protein excessively. AAS definitely increase the rate that protein is absorbed but I think even then, 2g/lb+ is excessive if you're bulking. Now if you are cutting by all means, try to spare as much muscle as possible. it's just when I see people barely 200lbs taking 400+ grams protein while bulking it's like NOO you need more carbs, it's obvious why you're that size.

[awms]

Man A's diet is impossible. Protein is 4Cals/g so 500g of protein is 2000 calories.

haha its not perfect sience I wrote that up in 2 mins....the point was more that if you have a balance diet you will grow.

[buffgator]

I think that most people aren't eating as much protein as they claim. Im 6'2" 310lbs and 17% bf. And i eat about 300-350 grams of protein a day and gain no problem. There's an interesting article that pointed out that the Russian Olympic weight lifting team eats 1/2 the amount of protein but allot more carbs then the American team and they have no problem kicking our ass every 4 years. If you want to bulk calories in general are king. Get lots of fats carbs and proteins!

[buffgator]

Nasser el sonbatny was a huge dude and i read once that his off season diet was like 250grams of protein plus a stupid high amount of carbs each day. My bro is a big lineman and he's way more concerned about carbs than protein to keep his weight up.

[PowerliftWill]

I think that most people aren't eating as much protein as they claim. Im 6'2" 310lbs and 17% bf. And i eat about 300-350 grams of protein a day and gain no problem. There's an interesting article that pointed out that the Russian Olympic weight lifting team eats 1/2 the amount of protein but allot more carbs then the American team and they have no problem kicking our ass every 4 years. If you want to bulk calories in general are king. Get lots of fats carbs and proteins!

damn you're a beast aha. And according the experts on here, that wouldn't be enough protein....but yet you gain fine. I always wondered why pro athletes don't eat that much protein yet they're massive and strong (football/baseball players mostly), yet when i'm eating probably 2x the protein they do even with AAS im not as big. I'll post an article I found that pretty much said too much protein and actually decrease anabolism having an opposite effect.

[wantaesthetics]

^^ Well for the natty lifter u don't need anywhere near 1.5-2g/lb

Studies show for bodybuilding athletes need anywhere from 1.6-2.0g/kg. U can def go for the higher 2g/kg which would roughly be .9g/1lb.

And that coincides with the usually cited figure of 1g/lean lb.

On cycle it's higher and I looked guys, but can't find it. sorry.

[calstate23]

I'd say it's intensity. Do you really feel over 2g/lb bodyweight does anything? And by that I mean LBM, not just weight. I guess we have differing opinions, and I understand where you're coming from, but I just feel people use protein excessively. AAS definitely increase the rate that protein is absorbed but I think even then, 2g/lb+ is excessive if you're bulking. Now if you are cutting by all means, try to spare as much muscle as possible. it's just when I see people barely 200lbs taking 400+ grams protein while bulking it's like NOO you need more carbs, it's obvious why you're that size.

2 grams of protein per pound of bodyweight does do something for me and its not just the extra calories...I've experimented with my diet enough times to know what works for me and what doesn't. I do not claim this as the standard by all means, as everyone is different. Again, this is definitely more of an individual type of thing than a gold standard...

I can also take in 500+ grams of carbs per day and not see much fat gain...Another person might pack on massive amounts of fat if they took in as many carbs as me...Its so individual, there cannot be a stamp put on for it....But I can tell you that 2 grams per pound isn't a myth because I do it and it works best for me. People need to experiment and I would suggest someone to try it before they can find their answer.

[LatissimusaurousRex]

The dead horse is getting the sh*t beat out of it, it's been established that it can vary as much as a person to person basis so trying to establish some sort of golden rule of how much everyone should be taking in is pretty pointless. IMO the amount of protein you should be taking in should be a certain % of your target # of calories anyway, which as stated will vary person to person. Also, keep in mind that all the documented studies in the world won't change the fact of what people KNOW their body responds to.