pwo nutrtion!!!!! pls help

[gibs]

hey guys,i just want to know for pwo nutrition is it ok to take 45gms of whey with 60gms of maltidextrin?? i know it should be split half multidextrin and half dextrose! but i cant get hold of dextrose.... so does it make a big diffrence if its just multidexrin? thanks

[gbrice75]

It's sugar, it won't make a difference. Both are poor choices IMO as i'm not a fan of eating pure sugar at any time, but I know plenty of people who do and have had success.

PS - what are your stats and goals?

[gibs]

I'm 5.65". 75kgs. Bodyfat @12%. My goals are to lean out to about 10%b.f for the summer. What would you recommend for pwo? I've just been basing my diet principles on rambos "cutting diet"

[gbrice75]

I'm 5.65". 75kgs. Bodyfat @12%. My goals are to lean out to about 10%b.f for the summer. What would you recommend for pwo? I've just been basing my diet principles on rambos "cutting diet"

Tbh, the diet sticky's are outdated and we're in the process of updating everything, so stay tuned for that.

If you're goal is to 'lean out', i.e. drop bodyfat, I would recommend against simple carbs PWO, even though you're already at a relatively low bodyfat. My PWO shake is 1.5 scoops protien powder (Myofusion), and 1/2 cup oats - raw, mixed up right in the shake. Shake, gulp, chew, repeat.

[joshh]

Buy some Vitargo S2, have 1 scoop (30g carbs) with a scoop of whey immediately after and your post workout meal within 45 minutes. i believe 60g carbs straight after working out is too much and unnecessary.

[joshh]

If you're goal is to 'lean out', i.e. drop bodyfat, I would recommend against simple carbs PWO, even though you're already at a relatively low bodyfat. My PWO shake is 1.5 scoops protien powder (Myofusion), and 1/2 cup oats - raw, mixed up right in the shake. Shake, gulp, chew, repeat.

I'm totally against this. Simple carbs are a must after a workout to refuel your glycogen stores. If staying lean is the goal, then minimize carbs throughout the day, do not substitute your simple carbs post workout.

[jimmyinkedup]

I'm totally against this. Simple carbs are a must after a workout to refuel your glycogen stores. If staying lean is the goal, then minimize carbs throughout the day, do not substitute your simple carbs post workout.

We will have to disagree on this. Its esstentially BS Hype that started with Muscletechs BS promotion of that cell tech garbage. There is no need whatsoever to take in simple carbs post workout to replenish glycogen stores. Glycogen will be replenished just fine without taking in all that sugar - which , if for no other reason other than genral health purposes is imo foolish. Unless you are an endurance athelete doing extended back to back exercise (ie: riding in the tour de france) or playing football doing say 2 a day practices (lifting am /field pm or vice versa) simple carbs post workout is not only unecessary imo its far from the best dietary choice. The insulin spike theory is garbage as imo it is impossible to "spike insulin" by eating foods to any extent that would increase anabolism and therefore increase muscle mass. Replenishing glycogen faster also doesnt increase muscle mass. That quanitiy of pure simple sugars has no place , at any time , in my diet.
To each his own but thats my take on it.

[gbrice75]

Simple carbs are a must after a workout to refuel your glycogen stores.

If you're gonna be bold enough to make a blanket statement like this, you had better be prepared to back it up - or you're gonna get eaten alive.

[jimmyinkedup]

We will have to disagree on this. Its esstentially BS Hype that started with Muscletechs BS promotion of that cell tech garbage. There is no need whatsoever to take in simple carbs post workout to replenish glycogen stores. Glycogen will be replenished just fine without taking in all that sugar - which , if for no other reason other than genral health purposes is imo foolish. Unless you are an endurance athelete doing extended back to back exercise (ie: riding in the tour de france) or playing football doing say 2 a day practices (lifting am /field pm or vice versa) simple carbs post workout is not only unecessary imo its far from the best dietary choice. The insulin spike theory is garbage as imo it is impossible to "spike insulin" by eating foods to any extent that would increase anabolism and therefore increase muscle mass. Replenishing glycogen faster also doesnt increase muscle mass. That quanitiy of pure simple sugars has no place , at any time , in my diet.
To each his own but thats my take on it.

I should add to this if you DO believe in simple carbs PWO why not incorporate them in a nutritionally prudent way - say in the form of fruit. Banana or pineapple would be good choices. Pineapple even contaian bromalain (sp), an enzyme that aids in the digestion of protein. Better yet how about a combo of one of the above fruits AND some oats ( complex carb). As I said i dont use simple carbs PWO - but if I did it would be the combo I just described above.

[gbrice75]

Have a good day

[Back In Black]

Buy some Vitargo S2, have 1 scoop (30g carbs) with a scoop of whey immediately after and your post workout meal within 45 minutes. i believe 60g carbs straight after working out is too much and unnecessary.

Disagree that 30g is sufficient. And 60g too much? Not necessarily, but that depends on stats and goals. And in your diet, assisted by gbrice, you state you were having oats at almost 40g of carbspost workout!!!

[gbrice75]

Pineapple even contaian bromalain (sp), an enzyme that aids in the digestion of protein.

I supplement bromelain with every meal!

[gibs]

I've heard a lot that getting fruit sugars(fructose) is not a great simple sugar pwo because it stores glycogen in your liver?? Its so confusing because wenever I try get information about what's best for pwo nutri,85% of people and magazines say that the whey and dextrose are best for pwo cos it gives you that insulin spike for more absorbtion. Then a lot of people say that simple sugars arnt a great pwo carb.... Hasn't their been a study done to see what is optimal for lean muscle growth?????? Surely their has to be the best way?

[jimmyinkedup]

I've heard a lot that getting fruit sugars(fructose) is not a great simple sugar pwo because it stores glycogen in your liver?? Its so confusing because wenever I try get information about what's best for pwo nutri,85% of people and magazines say that the whey and dextrose are best for pwo cos it gives you that insulin spike for more absorbtion. Then a lot of people say that simple sugars arnt a great pwo carb.... Hasn't their been a study done to see what is optimal for lean muscle growth?????? Surely their has to be the best way?

I understand your confusion , i do. A couple things to remeber - fruits contain glucose and fructose. Fruits like pineapple and bananas are about 50% glucoes / 50% fructose. Fruits like apples and pears are about 35% gluscose / 65% frutose. I read agreat article - it was called nutrition roundtable . It was Alan Aragon , Will brink , Jamie Hale and someone else(forget who) discuccing nutrition. Jamie Hale pointed out that in order for fructose to have an adverse effect it has to be consumed in excess of 50 grams. Not gonna happen- even still im sure it comes down more to caloric surplus or deficit as far as fat gain- not type of sugar. In fact i saw a study posted somewhere that showed a combo of glucose and fructose are the optimal mix for recovery. There are prob studies showing simplke carbs are better , the combo of glucose and fructose are better and that just complex carbs are better. The fact is there are sevral opinions. I used to use dextrose in my shakes years ago - I got the runs and no more muscle than i did when i switched to oats and its a hell of alot healthier. From a glycogen replenishment standpoint as I said unless there are special circumstances there is no bebnfit. Also from an "insulin spike) standpoint there is also no benefit. I am of the opinion the overall nutritional/health costs of that much pure sugar consumed at once is great and the benfit isnt there to justify it.
Again JMO...

[Swifto]

Good info here.

I'm an advocate of fruits no matter what time of the day it is, as long as they're consumed with protein/fats.

[Dukkit]

Or, to go out on a limb and say something that most dont agree with or know about...

Dont have any carbs PWO

All protein.

Protein = gluconeogenesis. Protein can convert to glucose when there is an abundance.

This will also keep your fat burning going long after your workout.

Then make your PPWO meal a protein and fat meal.

I know a few guys who utilize this method, even while using insulin and they are ripped to shreds.

Just an idea.

[Dukkit]

Point - you usually have to be carb depleted to make that work. So no carbs preworkout either.

[gbrice75]

sorry to hijack but how can do you supplement this each meal.?

is 1-2 scoops whey protein isolate and concentrate sufficient for PWO shake.?

You can buy a bromelain supplement... and it's very inexpensive.

As for your 2nd question - it all depends on your stats, goals, and complete diet. That said, most people are in the 1-2 scoop range. I tend to go with 1.5 to 2 scoops. Also, i'd recommend a protein blend (i.e. casein, whey, egg, etc) vs. straight whey. Yes, even PWO.

Its so confusing because wenever I try get information about what's best for pwo nutri,85% of people and magazines say that the whey and dextrose are best for pwo cos it gives you that insulin spike for more absorbtion.

Keep in mind that magazines sell whey and dextrose supplements, or own the companies that do. They aren't in the whole food business, so you won't see them pushing oats. And as for the people - well, most just parrot what they read in magazines, or here... so bad information (IMO) can easily become 'gospel' if enough people say it, and more listen.

While it's true that dextrose certainly will give you an insulin spike, I don't see the benefit. It's an oudated argument really. I think studies have shown that more stable blood glucose levels throughout the day are more beneficial to overall health than the supposed 'massive shoveling of nutrients into muscle cells' caused by spiking insulin.

Then a lot of people say that simple sugars arnt a great pwo carb.... Hasn't their been a study done to see what is optimal for lean muscle growth?????? Surely their has to be the best way?

Plenty of studies - and the bottom line is a consistent diet with a smart macro balance and nutritional foods is optimal. Particularly in healthy individuals, this source vs. that source is really getting into splitting hairs IMO. Again, there is no 'health' benefit to purposely eating sugar. I would be happy with the sugars I get from fruits, berries, etc. Muscle growth occurs when there is sufficient stimulation for growth, and sufficient calories to build (over simplified, but we're not going to get into hormonal balances and such right now), with a proper diet to help distribute those calories efficiently.

I understand your confusion , i do. A couple things to remeber - fruits contain glucose and fructose. Fruits like pineapple and bananas are about 50% glucoes / 50% fructose. Fruits like apples and pears are about 35% gluscose / 65% frutose. I read agreat article - it was called nutrition roundtable . It was Alan Aragon , Will brink , Jamie Hale and someone else(forget who) discuccing nutrition. Jamie Hale pointed out that in order for fructose to have an adverse effect it has to be consumed in excess of 50 grams. Not gonna happen- even still im sure it comes down more to caloric surplus or deficit as far as fat gain- not type of sugar. In fact i saw a study posted somewhere that showed a combo of glucose and fructose are the optimal mix for recovery. There are prob studies showing simplke carbs are better , the combo of glucose and fructose are better and that just complex carbs are better. The fact is there are sevral opinions. I used to use dextrose in my shakes years ago - I got the runs and no more muscle than i did when i switched to oats and its a hell of alot healthier. From a glycogen replenishment standpoint as I said unless there are special circumstances there is no bebnfit. Also from an "insulin spike) standpoint there is also no benefit. I am of the opinion the overall nutritional/health costs of that much pure sugar consumed at once is great and the benfit isnt there to justify it.
Again JMO...

Good info IMO Jimmy

Or, to go out on a limb and say something that most dont agree with or know about...

Dont have any carbs PWO

All protein.

Protein = gluconeogenesis. Protein can convert to glucose when there is an abundance.

This will also keep your fat burning going long after your workout.

Then make your PPWO meal a protein and fat meal.

I know a few guys who utilize this method, even while using insulin and they are ripped to shreds.

Just an idea.

Weird... seems to me i'd rather have all of my protein being utilized for it's primary purpose of cell repair vs. gluconeogenesis, BUT I suppose on a diet where the primary goal is to get shredded vs. building muscle, this could be a viable method with benefits.

[rhino6218]

Point - you usually have to be carb depleted to make that work. So no carbs preworkout either.

uggghh like pre-contest time!

[Dukkit]

Weird... seems to me i'd rather have all of my protein being utilized for it's primary purpose of cell repair vs. gluconeogenesis, BUT I suppose on a diet where the primary goal is to get shredded vs. building muscle, this could be a viable method with benefits.

Weird... that you seem to think that some how every single mg of protein is used for said cell repair.

In order to make use of gluconeogenesis.... your protein intake must be alot higher then normal. I.E. 80g or more. Usually even more depending on training and stats.

So why wouldnt that first 50g of protein be used for the cell repair and then other 30-50 used for gluconegenesis?

All while getting lean and sexy?

[Dukkit]

Off topic

But I must admit I do love bouncing ideas around with you GBrice!

[gbrice75]

Weird... that you seem to think that some how every single mg of protein is used for said cell repair.

Note I didn't say muscle cell repair specifically, but of course not every last bit of protein is used for repair... nor did I say it was Dukki!! I only said that i'd rather see it used for it's primary purpose which I think we can both agree is cell repair, vs. energy. Don't worry, I still love you.

In order to make use of gluconeogenesis.... your protein intake must be alot higher then normal. I.E. 80g or more. Usually even more depending on training and stats.

Well this puts a whole different paint job on things! If you're specifically manipulating the protein macro in order to optimize it for gluconeogenesis, then have at it I say!

So why wouldnt that first 50g of protein be used for the cell repair and then other 30-50 used for gluconegenesis?

Agreed!

All while getting lean and sexy?

Well this I know nothing about... i'll let you remain the expert!

Off topic

But I must admit I do love bouncing ideas around with you GBrice!

You know me bro, I love to mix it up - and if i'm wrong, i'm wrong - it's how I continue to learn!

[Dukkit]

Youre not wrong GBrice. Just different strokes for different folks. It all works in the end!
*bro hugs* lol

[gbrice75]

Youre not wrong GBrice. Just different strokes for different folks. It all works in the end!
*bro hugs* lol

Awww.... I love all the love here!

[gibs]

Guys this has helped me a lot and I've gained a lot of really great information. I guess you have to play around with the pwo nutri and see what works for yourself! And I guess if you gonna have the sugars it mite as well be from good sources of fruit... Thanks for helping me put my mind to ease on this subject....

[joshh]

If you're gonna be bold enough to make a blanket statement like this, you had better be prepared to back it up - or you're gonna get eaten alive.

"During the workout hard working muscles use glucose (usable energy) and glycogen (stored energy) for energy. As such, there is a point at which blood glucose levels (available energy) and glycogen levels (stored energy) get so low that intense exercise can't continue. There just isn't enough available energy for your muscles to use.

So what happens is that the hormone cortisol is secreted, this is your body's "stress" hormone and it has very catabolic effects. What cortisol does is eat up muscle tissue for protein and convert it into glucose. A process called gluconeogenesis ensues, producing glucose from these amino acids in the liver. The net result is a loss of muscle tissue."

I should add to this if you DO believe in simple carbs PWO why not incorporate them in a nutritionally prudent way - say in the form of fruit.

Because the faster the better. Vitargo is the fastest acting source of carb available, twice as fast absorbing than any sugar.

[jimmyinkedup]

http://www.buttseekrsand homos.com/f...kout_carbs.htm

"During the workout hard working muscles use glucose (usable energy) and glycogen (stored energy) for energy. As such, there is a point at which blood glucose levels (available energy) and glycogen levels (stored energy) get so low that intense exercise can't continue. There just isn't enough available energy for your muscles to use.

So what happens is that the hormone cortisol is secreted, this is your body's "stress" hormone and it has very catabolic effects. What cortisol does is eat up muscle tissue for protein and convert it into glucose. A process called gluconeogenesis ensues, producing glucose from these amino acids in the liver. The net result is a loss of muscle tissue."

Bvllshit



Because the faster the better. More BvllshitVitargo is the fastest acting source of carb available, twice as fast absorbing than any sugar.
http://www.*******.com/physique/vitargo.php
http://www.*******.com/physique/proof.php

First of all in accordance with the rules please edit your post and remove the links. Links of this kind are not permitted here. Thanks.

Second - Dont believe the hype!!
Third - Do yourself a favor read some Alan Aragon / Layne Norton / Will Brink(in this case esp read where he explains why vitargo is total garbage and a rip off)

I understand WHY you would have bought into this however the premise is not only unsound...its untrue and unsupported by the best nutritional minds bodybuilding has to offer. Add in the experience of the majority of bodybuilders and also that the human body just doesnt work that way and well ...that sums it up.
You are entitled to your opinion - again i even understand why u bought into this- however just do yourself a favor and dont base it off BS like you linked to above.

[jimmyinkedup]

duplicate

[rhino6218]

jimmy- i thought i was the only one on this board who followed layne norton!

[jimmyinkedup]

jimmy- i thought i was the only one on this board who followed layne norton!

Nah - I have seen Swifto and Base also refer to him as well. Im sure there are others as well. Hes a great resource for all of us - very intelligent and a pro on top of it.

[gbrice75]

Baseline is way into Layne!!

[rhino6218]

And above all else he is a natty, I find info from people without aas usage to be most useful and uncompromised.

[Sgt. Hartman]

"During the workout hard working muscles use glucose (usable energy) and glycogen (stored energy) for energy. As such, there is a point at which blood glucose levels (available energy) and glycogen levels (stored energy) get so low that intense exercise can't continue. There just isn't enough available energy for your muscles to use.

So what happens is that the hormone cortisol is secreted, this is your body's "stress" hormone and it has very catabolic effects. What cortisol does is eat up muscle tissue for protein and convert it into glucose. A process called gluconeogenesis ensues, producing glucose from these amino acids in the liver. The net result is a loss of muscle tissue."

Because the faster the better. Vitargo is the fastest acting source of carb available, twice as fast absorbing than any sugar.

I agree with what Jimmy posted but want to add 1 more point.

Just because vitargo and WM are digested faster (they pretty much pass right through the stomach undigested) does NOT mean that they replace lost muscle glycogen faster than complex carbs. Replacing all lost muscle glycogen can take hours regardless of the carb source or insulin spike, so what's the point in forking out the $ for these garbage supplements just to start a process that's gonna take a couple hours, 5 minutes sooner?

[gbrice75]

^^^ this!

Josh, don't believe everything you read. You have to learn to sort out the hype and BS. We have no agenda here, we're not selling or pushing anything. People spend their time here offering free help to those who can use it - nothing more.

As Jimmy said, please edit your post and remove the links, this is against our rules!

[joshh]

Post edited.

I don't just read things and believe it.. my current trainer also backs up these points and he was previous Mr Universe and 10x Mr Australia

[gbrice75]

Post edited.

I don't just read things and believe it.. my current trainer also backs up these points and he was previous Mr Universe and 10x Mr Australia

Have we've struck a nerve? We'll just sit back and let you have the floor then... sounds like you and your trainer have all the answers already. By all means, let the broscience flow!

PS - thx for editing out the links.

[rhino6218]

i would say the type of carb source for pwo nutrition should be based on immediate goals. as gbrice said, your glycos willl NOT be refilled at any sizable amount of time faster if you use simple carbs. the insulin spike is larger using carbs high on the glycemic index rating but this will only supply enough energy to last you for what...45 minutes? that why you get that super hungry feeling not long after pwo carbs is becuz your sugar has gone thru the floor now that you have created this massive spike which left with a massive drop off. if your goal is fat loss i would do oats or perhaps sweet potato for pwo carbs. skip the fats...fats slow the digestion of protein and will only prolong your absorption. ok im done rambling... lol

[Back In Black]

Post edited.

I don't just read things and believe it.. my current trainer also backs up these points and he was previous Mr Universe and 10x Mr Australia

Well, if your 10x (or is that 6?) Mr Australia with his superior genetics backs it up it must be true. Don't get me wrong, I'm sure the guy worked extremely hard in the kitchen and in the gym but anybody who successfully competes at national level for that long has some superior genetics and pharmacists.

Most of us on this board are 'normal' in terms of physique and genetics. If I remember rightly Joshh you were over 30% when you started cutting. That 1 meal per day of sugar probably wouldn't have done you any harm, although you did state you were having oats PWO! So how long have you done dextrose PWO for. How do you feel after? Do you eat sugar at any other time of day when you are cutting? Breakfast, for example, when your body is also crying out for nutrients after it's 8-10 hour fast. Does that make sense to have it then?

[Sgt. Hartman]

Mr Australia 1947 to present

Gary Lewer holds the record with 4 Mr Australia titles

2010 Justin Wessels NSW
2009 Justin Wessels NSW
2008 Justin Wessels NSW
2007 Darren Smith TAS
2006 Charles Duca NSW
2005 Adam Fennell SA
2004 Scott Burgess QLD
2003 Mark McEntyre NSW
2002 Nick Jones SA
2001 Lee Newman QLD
2000 Nick Jones SA
1999 Tony Loiacono WA
1998 Charles Duca NSW
1997 Grant Mayo NSW
1996 Colin Murphie NSW
1995 Lou Barrie WA
1994 Grant Clemesha WA
1993 Grant Clemesha WA
1992 Kevin O'Grady NSW
1991 Gary Tchernakoff WA
1990 Bruce Leong NT
1989 Gary Lewer VIC
1988 Gary Lewer VIC
1987 Gary Lewer VIC
1986 Sammy Ioannidis VIC
1985 Gary Lewer VIC
1984 George Costa NSW
1983 Clem Ziegler TAS
1982 Billy Knight NSW
1981 Billy Knight NSW
1980 Richard Jonker QLD
1979 Peter Lindsay VIC
1978 Graeme Lancefield VIC
1977 Ivan Djirlic NSW
1976 Billy Robertson WA
1975 Roger Walker NSW
1974 Ted Matoush NSW
1973 Roger Walker NSW
1972 Frank Colombera WA
1971 Peter McCarthy VIC
1970 Frank Colombera WA
1969 Carlo Zumbo NSW
1968 Carlo Zumbo NSW
1967 Peter McCarthy VIC
1966 Henry Iwanski NSW
1965 Les Spendlove NSW
1964 Chim Leong VIC
1963 Les Griffiths NSW
1962 Vic Vella NSW
1961 Vic Vella NSW
1960 Michael Hunt VIC
1959 Tom Lardner SA
1958 Joseph Cassar VIC
1956 Charlie Sherhan NSW
1955 Les Griffiths NSW
1954 John Penman NSW
1951 Gordon Nutter VIC
1947 Bob Human SA

[gbrice75]

^^^ pwnd!!!