Is my cycle/PCT/OCT good to go? (spreadsheet pic attached)

[1000_DaysAsTheLion]

I'm super paranoid about getting gyno because I have nips about this big (prolly slightly smaller than this guys):

http://www.flickr.com/photos/29322346@N08/4502525405/

just naturally without ever having done AAS/PH's etc.

note: THAT IS NOT ME, JUST A COMPARISON OF NIP PIC. LOL

I'm planning to start Test E or C at 250mg/week and go up to 500/week so long as sides stay in check. I'll be running aromasin 10mg ED as a preventative measure during cycle and through to the end of my PCT. I'll also be using 250iu 2-3x/week of HCG while on cycle.

if I do get gyno I plan to bump the aromasin up to 20-25mg/day and start Nolva at 40mgED for 5 days then 20ED and then 10ED after it goes away for rest of cycle. I will also have Letro on hand and will use Letro+nolva if aromasin+nolva does not work.

There is a pic of a spreadsheet I made attached which should cover pretty much everything else. If you think there is anything I am missing PLEASE let me know. I'm trying to do this exactly by the book and take every precaution possible.

stats: 5'11 186lbs 8% bf 22 years old.

so...am I good to go?

edit: meant to put test cyp not prop in spreadsheet.

[NewbFromCali]

Your spreadsheet says you're starting your AI two weeks early. Y?

[1000_DaysAsTheLion]

allow it to take effect, assess possible sides from too low estrogen, and make sure it works. I know your supposed to do this with letro, I guess maybe its not necessary for aroma, but I figured may as well, at the very least I'll know what I'm dealing with before jumping in to the cycle. I don't see how it could hurt b/c people do it with letro which is a more powerful AI.

question: if im already taking vit. C at 1-2g/day does this make any difference in how I use it in my PCT?

[Lemonada8]

You don't need to continue aromasin In your pct

[dec11]

you are too young, step back from this and understand you could screw up your sexual function aswell as a host of other hormone related problems

[Lemonada8]

^ agreed, I just looked at the spread sheet not the whole issue

[1000_DaysAsTheLion]

I'll be 23 by the time I start...90% of what I have read says 21+, with a few that say 24+.

is 23 still too young? I've read a lot about the risks and believe me, I know bad things could happen, but I am willing to accept that. I've been training seriously for 5 years and the gains I want are not attainable naturally. I will do everything to minimize risks though. I've had blood work done and my heart checked recently and I am completely healthy. Additionally, I will be keeping in touch with my doc for the duration of it and making sure everything stays fine.

[dec11]

I'll be 23 by the time I start...90% of what I have read says 21+, with a few that say 24+.

is 23 still too young? I've read a lot about the risks and believe me, I know bad things could happen, but I am willing to accept that. I've been training seriously for 5 years and the gains I want are not attainable naturally. I will do everything to minimize risks though. I've had blood work done and my heart checked recently and I am completely healthy. Additionally, I will be keeping in touch with my doc for the duration of it and making sure everything stays fine.

no, what you mean is that you just arent prepared to put the hard work in and are seeking short cuts.

im nothing special in the genetics department but was able to overcome and smash through plateaus from the age of 16 right up to 31, in plifting, and that was naturally. i most probably could have kept improving

[1000_DaysAsTheLion]

no, what you mean is that you just arent prepared to put the hard work in and are seeking short cuts.

im nothing special in the genetics department but was able to overcome and smash through plateaus from the age of 16 right up to 31, in plifting, and that was naturally. i most probably could have kept improving

I went from 140 to 185 8% over the course of 4-5 years. I bench 325, squat 505, and deadlift 590 raw at 180-185 bw - thats an elite total and more than some of my state records for 181 weight class. All of this while being a national competitor in college lacrosse and being a full time student. (note: I am no longer competing collegiate or in any other tested comps - so cheating is a non-issue)

please don't question my ability to put in hard work or my dedication. If anything, the willingness to put the time and effort into studying and learning how to use steroids properly is testament to it. I understand your point of view; there are definitely a lot of lazy people looking for an easy way to get a good body or whatever, but that ain't the case this time.

[dec11]

I went from 140 to 185 8% over the course of 4-5 years. I bench 325, squat 505, and deadlift 590 raw at 180-185 bw - thats an elite total and more than some of my state records for 181 weight class. All of this while being a national competitor in college lacrosse and being a full time student. (note: I am no longer competing collegiate or in any other tested comps - so cheating is a non-issue)

please don't question my ability to put in hard work or my dedication. If anything, the willingness to put the time and effort into studying and learning how to use steroids properly is testament to it. I understand your point of view; there are definitely a lot of lazy people looking for an easy way to get a good body or whatever, but that ain't the case this time.

so shift up a body class and build up to it. as you say it, you have the ability and dedecation, so why turn to AAS when you are at an age were they can seriously damage you?

i thought weights i broke through werent attainable, they were and more..........

[1000_DaysAsTheLion]

so shift up a body class and build up to it. as you say it, you have the ability and dedecation, so why turn to AAS when you are at an age were they can seriously damage you?

i thought weights i broke through werent attainable, they were and more..........

For my height anything past ~190 at ~7% is extremely rare naturally. my goal is 200 6-7%. AAS will have to be used at some point, unless I just happen to be 1 in a million - that is obviously not the case. so dedication is there, but being realistic, the ability is not. You might consider that one invested in this at the level I am has already considered these obvious objections (and more) and decided to proceed cautiously anyway. your ability to break through weights that you didn't think was attainable is a great accomplishment . But we have different goals, I want to go beyond elite, move weights that have not been moved before, and look better than my competitors doing it. And I'm willing to take the risks to achieve this.

btw - it is very unlikely that 1 12 week beginner cycle of test with proper PCT and OCT is going to cause serious side effects (serious to me is - death/severe injury/heart attack/permanent sexual dysfuction - even with TRT). Its not like I am taking a 50/50 with my life here. its more like a 95/5 with less serious sides like acne/gyno/lower libido.

now could we please stay on topic?

[dec11]

For my height anything past ~190 at ~7% is extremely rare naturally. my goal is 200 6-7%. AAS will have to be used at some point, unless I just happen to be 1 in a million - that is obviously not the case. so dedication is there, but being realistic, the ability is not. You might consider that one invested in this at the level I am has already considered these obvious objections (and more) and decided to proceed cautiously anyway. your ability to break through weights that you didn't think was attainable is a great accomplishment . But we have different goals, I want to go beyond elite, move weights that have not been moved before, and look better than my competitors doing it. And I'm willing to take the risks to achieve this.

btw - it is very unlikely that 1 12 week beginner cycle of test with proper PCT and OCT is going to cause serious side effects (serious to me is - death/severe injury/heart attack/permanent sexual dysfuction - even with TRT). Its not like I am taking a 50/50 with my life here. its more like a 95/5 with less serious sides like acne/gyno/lower libido.

now could we please stay on topic?

no harm but you're talking crap and why the hell do you ask for advice when you're just going act like another stupid know it all kid?

[Lemonada8]

For my height anything past ~190 at ~7% is extremely rare naturally. my goal is 200 6-7%. AAS will have to be used at some point, unless I just happen to be 1 in a million - that is obviously not the case. so dedication is there, but being realistic, the ability is not. You might consider that one invested in this at the level I am has already considered these obvious objections (and more) and decided to proceed cautiously anyway. your ability to break through weights that you didn't think was attainable is a great accomplishment . But we have different goals, I want to go beyond elite, move weights that have not been moved before, and look better than my competitors doing it. And I'm willing to take the risks to achieve this.

btw - it is very unlikely that 1 12 week beginner cycle of test with proper PCT and OCT is going to cause serious side effects (serious to me is - death/severe injury/heart attack/permanent sexual dysfuction - even with TRT). Its not like I am taking a 50/50 with my life here. its more like a 95/5 with less serious sides like acne/gyno/lower libido.

now could we please stay on topic?

if you are aware of the possible effects and want to take the chance, then go for it. but you should take another look at your diet and think of what you are doing.

and judging by your pic, you arent finished maturing. You dont have a full beard and you still have decent facial acne which are both signs of healthy testosterone production. you stayed in a weight class, and now dont have that restriction. why not start a heavy bulk diet with high rep workouts? That would be a better move IMO, utilize your natural test production and stay natural awhile longer.
you are in the prime of your life and growth, most growth you get natural you will keep because its nearly impossible to surpass your natural max with association to your body.

[BabyGymRat]

Dec11 if you haven't noticed yet, your approach to pushing 'kids' away from AAS is terrible and ineffective...

Lion where did you learn all that, just reading around online/these forums?

[jasc]

if you are aware of the possible effects and want to take the chance, then go for it. but you should take another look at your diet and think of what you are doing.

and judging by your pic, you arent finished maturing. You dont have a full beard and you still have decent facial acne which are both signs of healthy testosterone production. you stayed in a weight class, and now dont have that restriction. why not start a heavy bulk diet with high rep workouts? That would be a better move IMO, utilize your natural test production and stay natural awhile longer.
you are in the prime of your life and growth, most growth you get natural you will keep because its nearly impossible to surpass your natural max with association to your body.

That pics not him bro..

[hankdiesel]

He'll be 23 when he starts He sounds like he has a great foundation and has put in more work naturally than a lot of other people have. He's taking all the precautions to keep the side effects to a minimum. The more and more I read your posts Dec11 you sound like a hater. Not someone who is trying to give constructive criticism. The op sounds like he's ready. I would run a constant dose of test. Don't ramp it up like that.

[ijbickerdike]

Dec11 if you haven't noticed yet, your approach to pushing 'kids' away from AAS is terrible and ineffective...

Lion where did you learn all that, just reading around online/these forums?

Sorry but i have to dis-agree, he is putting it as simple as it is, its generally the fact that people cant wait and will do what ever anyway. Ive had a bit of advice of dec11 a few times and i have never been ungreatful for the advice.

[dec11]

Dec11 if you haven't noticed yet, your approach to pushing 'kids' away from AAS is terrible and ineffective...

Lion where did you learn all that, just reading around online/these forums?

i couldnt give a flying fvck what you think, your age is indicative of your stupid immature opinion

[dec11]

He'll be 23 when he starts He sounds like he has a great foundation and has put in more work naturally than a lot of other people have. He's taking all the precautions to keep the side effects to a minimum. The more and more I read your posts Dec11 you sound like a hater. Not someone who is trying to give constructive criticism. The op sounds like he's ready. I would run a constant dose of test. Don't ramp it up like that.

oh is that correct? and what the fvck do you think a 36yr man has to hate about, you plank? ive had alot of competitive success in plifting fyi, so yet again, what have i to hate about?

i'll tell what i do hate, its spoilt stupid kids and idiots like you that encourage them to go for it. you're a disgrace. constructive criticism? you've read all my posts then?

[BabyGymRat]

I'm not saying your always wrong, just your approach to it is that of an arrogant asshole and shuts people out. You should just try a different way and see how it works.

i couldnt give a flying fvck what you think, your age is indicative of your stupid immature opinion

[dec11]

I'm not saying your always wrong, just your approach to it is that of an arrogant ass-whole and shuts people out. You should just try a different way and see how it works.

yeah and just being out of nappies, what would you know? ass 'whole'? yeah i like to think its complete lmao

[1000_DaysAsTheLion]

Dec11: I'm not hating or trying to be a knowi-it-all - im just trying to learn about the topic i posted about. I appreciate your input. I think your advice is good, its just that I understand the risks and am willing to take them - so telling me "dont do it, you might get hurt" wont discourage me.

baby gym rat: yes reading multiple forums (mostly the stickies here), articles, studies etc. (I've been lurking for a while). I dont think I am completely ready yet, but thats why i am asking questions.

lemonda: haha thats not me. my diet is good (for a natty - it will be changed for cycling - thats for another thread tho)

[The Bear 79]

oh is that correct? and what the fvck do you think a 36yr man has to hate about, you plank? ive had alot of competitive success in plifting fyi, so yet again, what have i to hate about?

i'll tell what i do hate, its spoilt stupid kids and idiots like you that encourage them to go for it. you're a disgrace. constructive criticism? you've read all my posts then?

"Plank"???? Hav no idea wut a "plank" is, but I'm adopting it & adding 2 my vocab. (if thats coo with u Dec......)

[dec11]

Dec11: I'm not hating or trying to be a knowi-it-all - im just trying to learn about the topic i posted about. I appreciate your input. I think your advice is good, its just that I understand the risks and am willing to take them - so telling me "dont do it, you might get hurt" wont discourage me. fair enough, just be aware the sides wont seem real until you actually start suffering them, then you would think twice, ive been there and you're very wrong in your risk assessment, its a shot in the dark and cant be quantified

baby gym rat: yes reading multiple forums (mostly the stickies here), articles, studies etc. (I've been lurking for a while). I dont think I am completely ready yet, but thats why i am asking questions. this one is a whole massive 18yrs old and shouldnt even be acknowledged

lemonda: haha thats not me. my diet is good (for a natty - it will be changed for cycling - thats for another thread tho)

bolds...

[dec11]

"Plank"???? Hav no idea wut a "plank" is, but I'm adopting it & adding 2 my vocab. (if thats coo with u Dec......)

lol, we've a saying in ireland 'thick as a plank' its all yours to use bear

[MastaMan]

For my height anything past ~190 at ~7% is extremely rare naturally. my goal is 200 6-7%. AAS will have to be used at some point, unless I just happen to be 1 in a million - that is obviously not the case. so dedication is there, but being realistic, the ability is not. You might consider that one invested in this at the level I am has already considered these obvious objections (and more) and decided to proceed cautiously anyway. your ability to break through weights that you didn't think was attainable is a great accomplishment . But we have different goals, I want to go beyond elite, move weights that have not been moved before, and look better than my competitors doing it. And I'm willing to take the risks to achieve this.

btw - it is very unlikely that 1 12 week beginner cycle of test with proper PCT and OCT is going to cause serious side effects (serious to me is - death/severe injury/heart attack/permanent sexual dysfuction - even with TRT). Its not like I am taking a 50/50 with my life here. its more like a 95/5 with less serious sides like acne/gyno/lower libido.

now could we please stay on topic?

Good post, very weell thought out good luck on our cycle

[1000_DaysAsTheLion]

Dec11: thank you for your input. Don't think I'm just ignoring your advice either. I did additional research on side effects and reconsidered the risks. I am still planning to continue with my cycle in the near future though. please note that in addition to extensive OCT and PCT I will be in contact with my doc and get regular bloodwork before during and after the cycle. Since you seem to be very familiar with the negative sides, please let me know if there are any you think i might have missed or not accounted for with my pct/oct. thanks!

masta: thanks!

Alright I have made a few slight revisions to the spreadsheet based on recommendations in this thread. a picture is attached to this post

I have a few questions I'd really appreciate input on:

does the HCG+propecia call for higher AI/SERM use than normal for OCT? both these compounds can add extra estro, so i thought i might need a bit extra AI...???

Wanted to make sure no AI was needed in PCT if one is used OCT? - I've seen conflicting advice so I just wanted to see what people thought

was thinking about adding something to combat prolactin gyno in case i got the lactating type gyno, but my understanding is that this is not a concern for the compounds I am using. am i right?

Was thinking about proscar for hair loss, but i have a thick head of hair and I feel like this is not really a concern for a 12 week low dose test only cycle. am I right or should I include it just to be safe?


thanks, really appreciate input.

[dec11]

Dec11: thank you for your input. Don't think I'm just ignoring your advice either. I did additional research on side effects and reconsidered the risks. I am still planning to continue with my cycle in the near future though. please note that in addition to extensive OCT and PCT I will be in contact with my doc and get regular bloodwork before during and after the cycle. Since you seem to be very familiar with the negative sides, please let me know if there are any you think i might have missed or not accounted for with my pct/oct. thanks!

masta: thanks!

Alright I have made a few slight revisions to the spreadsheet based on recommendations in this thread. a picture is attached to this post

I have a few questions I'd really appreciate input on:

does the HCG+propecia call for higher AI/SERM use than normal for OCT? both these compounds can add extra estro, so i thought i might need a bit extra AI...???

Wanted to make sure no AI was needed in PCT if one is used OCT? - I've seen conflicting advice so I just wanted to see what people thought

was thinking about adding something to combat prolactin gyno in case i got the lactating type gyno, but my understanding is that this is not a concern for the compounds I am using. am i right?

Was thinking about proscar for hair loss, but i have a thick head of hair and I feel like this is not really a concern for a 12 week low dose test only cycle. am I right or should I include it just to be safe?


thanks, really appreciate input.

things that all the pct in the world cant fix, if you're unlucky:

1 depression, and i mean with a capital D
2 loss of power/strength (weaker than i was natty after my 1st cycle)
3 loss of majority of gained size (water)
4 psychological dependency and need for more cycling (relating to point 2)
5 loss of libido (its a gamble and some are shot after one cycle)
6 all of the above leading to trt, not pleasant, if like me you decide after 20yrs that you're bored with lifting and eating constantly

[1000_DaysAsTheLion]

things that all the pct in the world cant fix, if you're unlucky:

1 depression, and i mean with a capital D
2 loss of power/strength (weaker than i was natty after my 1st cycle)
3 loss of majority of gained size (water)
4 psychological dependency and need for more cycling (relating to point 2)
5 loss of libido (its a gamble and some are shot after one cycle)
6 all of the above leading to trt, not pleasant, if like me you decide after 20yrs that you're bored with lifting and eating constantly

That sucks man, I certainly understand your point of view. I will say, waiting is not very enticing seeing that you got all of those things despite waiting. I am taking extensive measures to avoid all those things and have made sure there is no reason to think i might be susceptible to them. I'll be in close contact with my doc before during and after. In the event that I do get all these negative sides and need medical care for them, I will have access to it. Certainly it is still a risk, but it is a calculated risk that I am willing to take and have minimized in every way possible.


Anyone have anymore thoughts on my cycle?

[Lemonada8]

you can prolly wait a week or 2 before starting hcg.
your pct looks good, im more of a fan of clomid over tore but thats debatable and it should be fine either way