Trying to find a balance in my dose amount and frequency

[Notpretty]

I've been on replacement therapy for 18 months, but for this discussion I really only have 5 months of stable consistent injections. In short, when I started the therapy I decided to cycle...add more and push things. Not smart. I got way out of balance and am now trying to do this the right way. I need your advice. For the last 5 months things have gone like this: I was (1st two months of the last 5 months) injecting 1.5cc of 200mg cypionate every other week. I was experiencing many roller coaster side effects including heavy sleep on day 2, sweating like mad on day 7-14, headaches were intermitent, and my mood was insane at times...usually on the downside on days 7-14 and I still get tender tits at high points...day 2-5. So, they changed me to injecting weekly with each dose .75cc of 200mg cypionate. Now the roller coaster is less overall, but happens every week rather then over two weeks.

Day 1...still feel like crap, moodiness, depression is terrible, headache, sweating can be bad or just annoying based on physical activity.
Day 2...begin to improve rapidly. Sweats stop, depression fades, feel good, still can get headaches a bit, but for some reason I get an overwhelming need to sleep deeply for 6 hours more then normal. Heck I've slept on Day 2 14 straight hours before without waking.
Day 3...feel even better, energy up, happy, all good, some headache, can still feel need to sleep but it starts to fade. Tender Tits occasionally
Day 4...Same as day 3...Tender tits often.
Day 5...Generally the same, but by the end of the day I begin to feel things are falling off rapidly. Sweats start
Day 6...Usually not feeling great, depression kicks in and by the end of the day it can be bad, sweats are in full flow, headache, moody as hell
Day 7...Injection...but still feel like crap and try to get through the day until the injection improves things.

Each week can vary from the prior in that if the injection doesn't go in great or goes well, or if I have done more physical activitiy, or other factors can make the week better or worse for me. Some weeks are not bad, some can be down right nasty.

I've had two BW results in this 5 month period. Each showed I was: Testosterone Ultra Sensative 689 and 712 with Free scores of 208 and 219 respectively. So the scores were a bit high which probably reflect me pushing the dose up a bit two weeks prior to testing in each case. All I did was on that injection in each case I was particularly bad...depressed...etc., so I took .85CC...just a bit more. I had the blood draws done on day 7 prior to injection.

So my question is what would you guys change or add or suggest? Change dose? Frequency? Add HCG and aridex (sp) or whatever that is? Also, does the injection absorb consistently from one week to the next. I'm thinking that would vary based on location and how well it was done. I can inject correctly, but sometimes I know I did a great job and others are so so. I do lateral thigh injections. Bit harder to do the left side.

Help?

[GotNoBlueMilk]

Many people who do subqueue injections inject twice a week. So Sunday AM and Wednesday PM work out well because it's 3.5 days apart. Breaking out into 2 days also lowers the E2 spike as well.

Once every 7 days shouldn't be a roller coaster though. Your headaches could easily be from too much T. I get headaches when I push my dose too high. For me 120 mg is too high though. But I do get headaches when I go there. If your amount is too much, then your body is going to react to it in unusual ways. If your bloodwork is coming back high like you say, then it obviously isn't a low T issue.

[JD250]

True^^^ Although I will say that my experience with 7day shots was similair, test levels start to drop rapidly on day 5 regardless of who you are, the difference is how your body reacts. I started injecting every 5 days and that stopped the rollercoaster ride however recently I started injecting 50mg twice a week, I follow each injection 12 hours later with .5mg of anastrozol.......I feel nothing!!! That's how it should be, normal, no pains, no headaches, acne is nearly gone, energy is good, sleep is good, workouts are better and so on..... everyone is different but I sure don't hear many complaints from those who use a smaller dose twice a week, and the sub q guys seem to be just as happy if not more so, no big needles for them. Make some small adjustments and find that sweet spot, it may be different from others but the odds are that it will be similair.

[JD250]

Also, MORE is not better..........BETTER is better even if it's less, good luck bro.

[lovbyts]

Good information and analogy about and yes everyone is different making it hard to find our own sweet spot so to speak. That being said it's why we have a baseline and starting point of 1x a week. If people can get away with 1x ever 2 weeks then more power to them. I'm not sure I have found my sweet spot yet but nothing crazy to report with 1x a week so far. It's still a work in progress but information like above makes it a little easier and gives us all ideas of what we can do to improve things.

I agree, more is not better.

[devildog1967]

Its all trial and error . like me im still trying to find the sweet spot ..good luck bro

[Times Roman]

Also, MORE is not better..........BETTER is better even if it's less, good luck bro.

you are so damn right on this one bro

I'm a trt also. went from 100mg/week cyp to 80mg/week after some lab work showed my free test was beyond the high range for optimal, so we dropped it 20%

with trt, you want the right amount for optimal health. some blokes don't seem to understand that for some reason

[flatscat]

First off, congrats for being so in tune with your body. Next step is to find your E2 value - no mention of this in this post. Just on the surface it sounds as though it could be high, and according to your symptoms - just about all of them could be attributed to this.

No worries mate if it is high, it can be brought down easily with something like adex. Adding HCG in might do you some good depending on your condition - were you diagnosed as primary or secondary?

You are with friends here that have gone through the same as you. Read up and keep asking questions - you will be fine with a little tweaking.

Btw, not so sure there is such a thing as a sweet spot - - no levels on anything we measure are ever constant no matter how often we inject - think of it maybe as a sweet range....

flats

[Notpretty]

I'm secondary. What exactly is E2? Estrogen? I can't get my Dr to do an estrogen test. I requested it and she said conversion to estrogen is only possible at high doses. So, that is an important question I have for everyone on this forum.

Can Estrogen conversion present a problem at TRT doses? Is my Doctor wrong? Also, is my doctor wrong when she says the sweating, sleeping, and mood issues have nothing to do with TRT.

She believes it is some other issue I have. I think she is completely wrong since the symptoms follow the injections exactly each time like clock work...even if I miss a day or two.

I get the "sweet spot" goal, but I'd settle for something called "spot". The days I'm depressed are debilitating. Self hatred, paranoid, stupid thinking. So it kicks in on day 5 peaks day 7 and fades rapidly following an injection. Given these symptoms, would you think changing dose or changing frequency is more likely to help. I suspect my dose is high based on BW. But it is hard for me to believe the dose is too high when I struggle so bad on day 5 as my level gets low. It seems logical that I would not be feeling bad if I had more. I know that's wrong thinking, is it?

I'm inclined to take doses every 3.5 days at 40mg per injection. I see most do 50mgs every 3.5 days. Are you guys testing high in testosterone on your BW? Are you having estrogen conversion issues? Are you using aramidex(sp)? And, what is aramidex? What does it do? What is HCG, what does it do? What doses of each should I start at assuming my estrogen is high? That's about 20 questions...sorry. Looking for much info.

[flatscat]

your doctor is an idiot. estradiol.

yes, yes, yes to your bold questions

[JohnnyVegas]

I'm secondary. What exactly is E2? Estrogen? I can't get my Dr to do an estrogen test. I requested it and she said conversion to estrogen is only possible at high doses. So, that is an important question I have for everyone on this forum.

Can conversion present a problem at TRT doses? Is my Doctor wrong? Also, is my doctor wrong when she says the sweating, sleeping, and mood issues have nothing to do with TRT.

She believes it is some other issue I have. I think she is completely wrong since the symptoms follow the injections exactly each time like clock work...even if I miss a day or two.

My E2 goes up if I switch from twice a week to once a week. When I do twice the dose (once a week), more of it is converted. Having said that, weekly injections don't make my E2 high enough to be a problem...and maybe that is what your doc means.

Make sure you aren't making multiple changes at once as you won't know what variable is changing your symptoms. Also, make sure you aren't making evaluations on weekly basis as I think your dose changes will take longer than that to really take effect.

In the mean time, let her investigate the problem being something else. Doctors are not always idiots, and every single thing we feel is not related to our TRT, so she might be on to something.

[flatscat]

maybe that was too harsh...

maybe she is just very mis-informed about this subject...

but we expect our care givers to know what they are talking about when they treat, correct?

In reality, in the perfect situation, and with the perfectly healthy and working male body, there should be little to no conversion of t to e2. In most of our situations - we are far from perfect. We have been living with low t for a while. Now you add in, at the minimum, a mid to high normal level of t and all of a sudden our bodies are saying...wtf... where did this come from? So of course there will be some conversion.

What about youths who get gyno???? Wonder how she thinks that happens???? Some are more prone to conversion than others - this is a fact.

I have found that my need for an inhibitor is much less now than when i started - and i attribute it to my body settling in to the t and my protocol, and my loss of bf.

You also need to get more educated on this subject. Don't just rely on the answers in this thread. This site is full of great info as is the web - dive into it all and learn as much as you can - we are all here to help you.

[flatscat]

My E2 goes up if I switch from twice a week to once a week. When I do twice the dose (once a week), more of it is converted. Having said that, weekly injections doesn't make my E2 high enough to be a problem...and maybe that is what your doc means.

Make sure you aren't making multiple changes at once as you won't know what variable is changing your symptoms. Also, make sure you aren't making evaluations on weekly basis as I think your dose changes will take longer than that to really take effect.

In the mean time, let her investigate the problem being something else. Doctors are not always idiots, and every single thing we feel is not related to our TRT.

Johnny,

Almost all of his symptoms are classic E2 issues - and for her not to even check his levels to rule this out first is idiotic.

I agree that not everything we feel is trt related, and the op's may end up not being related, but it is the logical place to start in my opinion.

[Notpretty]

To make the above easier:

1) Can estrogen conversion occur at TRT dose levels?

2) Are symptoms like sweating, sleeping, mood swings associated with TRT?

3) Is my dr wrong when she says #2 and #3 are not a TRT issue?

4) If my symptoms (mood, etc) are TRT related do I need more/less testosterone to avoid them?

5) If my symptoms (mood, etc) are TRT related do I need to inject more/less frequently to avoid them?

6) Are the people taking injections every 3.5 days at 50mg finding stability, finding testosterone levels are high, finding estrogen levels are high, are you taking anything else like aramidex or HCG?

7) What is aramidex? What does it do?

8) What is HCG and what does it do?

9) What is Sub Q and why would that help?

10) I should have an Estrodil (sp) result back that I paid for outside Kaiser insurance back today. What are normal ranges and what are recommendations for when it's high. I do get tender titties on occasion... That can only be conversion, right?...assuming I don't have a tumor or ovaries.

[bass]

To make the above easier:

1) Can estrogen conversion occur at TRT dose levels? like Flats said, yes, yes , yes!

2) Are symptoms like sweating, sleeping, mood swings associated with TRT? yes

3) Is my dr wrong when she says #2 and #3 are not a TRT issue? yes

4) If my symptoms (mood, etc) are TRT related do I need more/less testosterone to avoid them? i would say its not the testosterone, more likely its your e2! you can try less and see what happens!

5) If my symptoms (mood, etc) are TRT related do I need to inject more/less frequently to avoid them? split twice a week!

6) Are the people taking injections every 3.5 days at 50mg finding stability, finding testosterone levels are high, finding estrogen levels are high, are you taking anything else like aramidex or HCG? not sure what my levels are until i do blood work, but for me switching to twice a week with smaller does i feel great. i used to inject 200mgs once a week, and felt the roller coaster effect, but once switching to twice a week with a total of 100 mgs per week i feel hell of allot better!

7) What is aramidex? What does it do? it prevents testosterone from converting to estrogen

8) What is HCG and what does it do? simply put it will keep your balls from shrinking or testicle atrophy!

9) What is Sub Q and why would that help? read this, http://forums.steroid.com/showthread...56#post5757556 and this, http://forums.steroid.com/showthread...06#post5794706

10) I should have an Estrodil (sp) result back that I paid for outside Kaiser insurance back today. What are normal ranges and what are recommendations for when it's high. I do get tender titties on occasion... That can only be conversion, right?...assuming I don't have a tumor or ovaries. anywhere within the range is normal, but for optimal its in the middle, of course everyone is deferent!

read bold!

[bass]

True^^^ Although I will say that my experience with 7day shots was similair, test levels start to drop rapidly on day 5 regardless of who you are, the difference is how your body reacts. I started injecting every 5 days and that stopped the rollercoaster ride however recently I started injecting 50mg twice a week, I follow each injection 12 hours later with .5mg of anastrozol.......I feel nothing!!! That's how it should be, normal, no pains, no headaches, acne is nearly gone, energy is good, sleep is good, workouts are better and so on..... everyone is different but I sure don't hear many complaints from those who use a smaller dose twice a week, and the sub q guys seem to be just as happy if not more so, no big needles for them. Make some small adjustments and find that sweet spot, it may be different from others but the odds are that it will be similair.

JD, this is exactly my protocol with the exception of injection method!

[Notpretty]

Got the estrogen results. My Estrodil score was 19.2...range is 7.6 - 42.6 (lab Corp). But for the two weeks before this test I was taking liquidex .50ml each day or "5" on an oral tube injection. And i was taking a 10mg pill each day of tamoxifen. I was advised to do this before and I did. I did not really know what the stuff was but was told it would help the symptoms. This was outside my dr or kaiser. So knowing what I was taking and still scoring 19.2. What does that tell us? Anything? Should I keep taking liquidex and tamaxifin? Does liquidex block production of estrogen, or sweep it out, or just block it from having any effect by filling the receptors the estrogen seek out? Same question for tamax?

I know I'm not being consistent but I'm trying to now. Since last Thursday I stopped taking liquidex and the tamaxofin. I have to pass a BW test for free and total this Thursday to avoid having my dose dropped from .75 a week to .50 a week. Regardless of my sweet spot, which I'm working towards, I want as much medicine as I can get from the dr. I did independent testing last Thursday and got my estrogen free and total tested.

Free 16.1 range 6.8 - 21.5
Total 570 range of 348 - 1189
Estrodil 19.2. Range 7.6 - 42.6

When I do the BW on Thursday, I want to be center of normal or lower but not too low. I injected a tiny amount today to avoid being too low and avoid being depressed. I injected 30mgs and that small amount combined with withdrawing the tamaxifen and liquidex I think I'll be close to the numbers I want... Which is a bit lower the I tested on Thursday. I hope I will, thoughts, think I'm right?

GREAT FEEDBACK!! Keep it coming.

[bass]

Got the estrogen results. My Estrodil score was 19.2...range is 7.6 - 42.6 (lab Corp). But for the two weeks before this test I was taking liquidex .50ml each day or "5" on an oral tube injection. And i was taking a 10mg pill each day of tamoxifen. I was advised to do this before and I did. I did not really know what the stuff was but was told it would help the symptoms. This was outside my dr or kaiser. So knowing what I was taking and still scoring 19.2. What does that tell us? Anything? Should I keep taking liquidex and tamaxifin? Does liquidex block production of estrogen, or sweep it out, or just block it from having any effect by filling the receptors the estrogen seek out? Same question for tamax?

I know I'm not being consistent but I'm trying to now. Since last Thursday I stopped taking liquidex and the tamaxofin. I have to pass a BW test for free and total this Thursday to avoid having my dose dropped from .75 a week to .50 a week. Regardless of my sweet spot, which I'm working towards, I want as much medicine as I can get from the dr. I did independent testing last Thursday and got my estrogen free and total tested.

Free 16.1 range 6.8 - 21.5
Total 570 range of 348 - 1189
Estrodil 19.2. Range 7.6 - 42.6

When I do the BW on Thursday, I want to be center of normal or lower but not too low. I injected a tiny amount today to avoid being too low and avoid being depressed. I injected 30mgs and that small amount combined with withdrawing the tamaxifen and liquidex I think I'll be close to the numbers I want... Which is a bit lower the I tested on Thursday. I hope I will, thoughts, think I'm right?

GREAT FEEDBACK!! Keep it coming.

well you can't take something then stop, then take some more on so on! TRT has to have a constant protocol, the same doses every week!

Standard TRT protocol for men is,
100-200 mgs test ew, or split dose twice a week.
AI, 1 mgs per 100 mgs test.
HCG , 250 IU eod or 500 IU twice a week, but this is tailored to the individual.

Ask your doctor about AI and hCG , AI is to prevent test from converting to E2.
hCG is to keep your balls from shrinking and to help maintain your natural test production.

[Notpretty]

Unfortunately we are talking about Kaiser insurance which will not pay for anything that is not required. My guess is she will look at me and wonder why I want HCG. I bet she has no idea it's ever used in TRT. Same for dex.

[kelkel]

Ask her, hypothetically of course, if something medically occured to her that caused her vag to grow larger and there was an obvious cure to it, would she take it? That analogy should get your point across regarding hcg.

[JohnnyVegas]

Johnny,

Almost all of his symptoms are classic E2 issues - and for her not to even check his levels to rule this out first is idiotic.

I agree that not everything we feel is trt related, and the op's may end up not being related, but it is the logical place to start in my opinion.

Sorry if it seemed like I disagree with you. I don't. I think he should definitely get E2 tested. I was just trying to be the voice of reason as I have ignored doctor's advice to my own detriment in the past. So, I meant he is on the right track with the E2 AND let her investigate other problems.

I oftentimes log on at work while waiting for a Photoshop progress bar and type too quickly. I have posted a few garbled message lately and I realize I need...to...slow...down.

[Notpretty]

Given that I was taking tamaxifin and liquidex is 19.2 a high score for Estrodil?

[bass]

Given that I was taking tamaxifin and liquidex is 19.2 a high score for Estrodil?

anywhere between 20 and 30 is good. 19.2 is fine too!

[JD250]

WTF??? You keep adding shit to the equation dude!!! All this hurry up and take this stuff before a blood test garbage aint gonna cut it. Why don't you lay it ALL out for us to see before you ask for any more advice.....also, read the stickies at the top of this forum, they will answer most of your questions, seriously man, you ask for advice on something and then COMPLETELY change the scenario on us.......all that advice is worthless if you aren't telling us everything.

[bass]

and to add to JD's comment, you can't alter your hormones and not tell your doctor, he/she will never be able get you the right protocol if they don't know what your real levels are!

[VegasRenegade]

I agree it seems like you are not telling the whole story. You need to get blood work done with all things being level not adding this or stoping that if you want to have any idea of what is going on. Most docs are clueless but if you are going to make changines on your own you need to do more reserch.

[Notpretty]

Yeah...I'm all over the place. And, the way I wrote this thread was terrible. I know, but trying to explain the reality I'm in is not easy or simple to describe much less understand for a newbie like me. I could have done a better job saying it...that's for sure. Frankly I'm trying to get a grasp on it myself. I'm trying to do the right thing...get my protocol/sweet spot right. And I have been "good" meaning doing what I should be for 5 months accept for the two weeks prior to my last Thursday test I was taking LiquiDex and Tamaxifin. I did this because I was talking to a buddy that juices and I was telling him about my sides/roller coastering and he said give it a try. I was desperate. My sides were so bad...nearly suicidal at times...I was willing to try it. Frankly I'm glad I did it. It helped. I think my Estrogen was way high and that brought it down. But, I thought I should get off both Liquidex and tamaxifin because I have a test for my Doctor on Thursday coming up. I feared the liquidex and tamaxifin might send my Testosterone score higher then the protocal she's set for me. And she's about to lower my dose based on two previous test scores that were not that high 520 and 510. She's extremely conservative and believes 50mg a week is a proper amout for everyone. 100mg a week is simply out of the thinking. The more I read on these forums the more I learn this is a person by person deal because everyone react differently. And that makes me think she's just not up to speed in her field or this area of her field. I do not trust her knowledge level at all and maybe that is why I've been willing to tinker. Anyway, the other items I stated are so small I do not believe they have had any real affect on the conversation, but I said them anyway and it muddied the waters more. Sorry for confusing everyone. I'm a newbie and doing the best I can given the sides I'm going thru Right now (I'm a basket case right now) and at the same time I'm trying to figure out what to do...cause her protocal is NOT working. I'm roller coasting bad. Her response is its not the testosterone. I think I'm not typical. I think I react to testosterone badly for some reason...don't know why. Trying to figure it out. It is confusing to me and thus trying to describe it is confusing. And, yes, I've tinkered with the protocal and I need to keep it steady and make one change at a time to know what it does...and do BW as I go to confrim. I get that. I've gotten desperate, and failed to be consistent. Beyond that, I'm just looking for info about Estrogen, Conversion, meds to help that, suggestions in dose and frequency. Essentially, given my mess what would you do? I really do appreciate your help.

[HRTstudent]

Have you considered gels? One of the best benefits, I believe, of gels like Testim or Androgel are that they provide a steady dose day after day. The blood level of T "more" closely resembles the natural rise and fall of a male's T levels. There are cons to gels, but there are serious pro's as well that you really need to consider fully.

[JD250]

Dude, STOP fvcking with your protocol!! Stop changing and trying to second guess what your doc might do when you don't even understand any of this stuff, changing from this and that and trying stuff because someone said it would work and then stopping because you have a doctor appointment will only serve to make you feel even worse than you already do. Your body needs time to adjust, it is making a bunch of changes......don't switch back and forth at a moments notice. I've tried it too and it ends poorly.

How did you feel while you were on the liquidex and tomoxafin? Liquidex is Anastrozol by another name, if you still have some it could serve you quite well but lets start over here and see whats going on. Lose the tomoxafin.

You need to study some TRT protocols and educate yourself on this stuff, print off some stuff and take it to your doctor, but again educate yourself how else will you convince her that anything is wrong when you don't know anything about it yourself.

I said it earlier and I'll stand by it...more is not better!! Forget this fear you have that your doctor wants to deprive you instead find out how this stuff works so you can discuss it with her.


If you were to inject 40 or 50 mgs twice a week and take a 1/2 mg liquidex 12hrs after each injection it would probably be a good place to start but then again you've not shared complete blood panels with us so I am ASSUMING which is the mother of all mistakes.


If I come across a little strong it's because you don't seem to have a clue what you're doing even after 18 months of TRT and blasting, nothing personal but you're gonna hurt yourself worse than you already have, it's your health bro, don't mess with it like it's some sort of joke.

Go to the top of THIS forum and read those stickies, the threads that say IMPORTANT beside them........they really are important.

[JD250]

To add to what I just said....please don't take it personal, not trying to beat you up, just want to help you get better. Glad you came here to ask questions and by all means feel free to ask more questions, read the stickies and I'll try to lighten up a bit.

[kelkel]

Your correct JD, but might I suggest decaf?

[bigboy67]

Everybody thinks their body is like a finely tuned race car. Newsflash, it aint. when it comes to TRT, our bodies are more like big cruise ships. We thinks punching the throttle or turning on the heat is going to make us go fast and warm up all the rooms. Just like the cruise ship, it takes time for your body to initially react, then to balance itself out.

change only one thing at a time with your protocol, then give it like 3 weeks to really gauge the effects, otherwise you are going to create artificial and damaging swings, plus it gets confusing. if you are changing a lot, you may think you feel better cuz you are on an AI for 5 days, but really you feel better because you backed down your dose 3-4 weeks ago.

this is gonna be a lifetime thing, take your time

[APIs]

To add to what I just said....please don't take it personal, not trying to beat you up, just want to help you get better. Glad you came here to ask questions and by all means feel free to ask more questions, read the stickies and I'll try to lighten up a bit.

I don't think you're beating him up. He's all over the place. OP is a perfect example of why TRT is not for everyone, as it requires a lot of personal responsibility. We see this all the time, individuals who get involved in TRT without first educating themselves. Not knowing what E2 or Anastrazole is after 18 months of TRT is simply not acceptable. What makes the situation worse is when they start double-guessing their Doctor & changing their protocol based on what other people tell them. Then he wonders why he feels like crap, lol? IMO, OP needs to back off, listen to your PCP & follow her treatment schedule, read the literature & educate yourself all in that order. Only then can you become an active (& knowledgeable) participant in your Health Care relating to TRT. If done correctly, you will enhance your Doctor's knowledge which only benefits you both in the long-run. My $0.02...

[bass]

i agree with all of you! before i make any changes to my protocol i always get my doctors permission first, the doc needs to know everything otherwise you're simply self medicating!

[Notpretty]

I have read the "important" threads above.

I can't give you a complete BW panel because my doctor will not order one even when I asked for it. All she's tested is testosterone free and total, PSA and one time early on they checked prolactin. I went outside the kaiser system and did free and total and Estrodil. I posted my scores above and below. What tests should be ordered?

I fully admit to self medicating because clearly my doctor has no clue. She won't order tests. When you are so mentally f'd up you are near suicidal, and you get no help, so you're left trying to figure it out. Again, the only change I made in the last 5 months that is significant is the liquidex and tamaxifin...which I ran for two weeks and stopped. It helped. As time passed taking them I improved mentally.

I also have, yes more to muddy the water, hypothyroidism and am being treated for it. My scores remain higher then they should be and this makes the mental lows worse. For full disclosure I have 3 lumbar discs that were crushed flat...ruptured, then cleaned out via two disc removal surgeries. I take narcotics. I need a 3 level disc fusion, but am trying to wait as long as i can. It is bery risky and extremely invasive. I could come out of it far worse. 10-15% chance i improve. 50% i stay the same...the rest i'm worse. Was taking oxy contin 80mg a day which is enough to kill most people. I got off that and now use suboxone which is normally used by addicts to get off narcotics, but it works well for me for pain management.

I had several testosterone level tests before they put me on TRT. My scores were stupid low 64, 89, 123 and 103. That was with my first doctor. The test was called " testosterone, total" and normal range is greater than 200. My recent scores are: 3/7/2011 - 303, 7/14/2011 545, 8/25/2011 712 but the name of this test is slightly different. It was called testosterone, ultra-sensative MC MS/MS. The scores I got done outside kaiser were free and total: free 16.1 range of 6.8 - 21.5, total 570, Estrodil 19.2 range of 7.6 - 42.6. That prolactin score was normal at 7 range of 2 - 18.

[JD250]

What is the planned procedure for your back? Check into XLIF surgery. I had an accident on the jobsite several years ago and smashed my lowest 3 discs, all were bulged and pinching the nerves, I understand severe chronic pain and what it can do to you mentally and physically, I had them cleaned up with laser surgery but I may need a fusion in the future, if I do I will pursue an XLIF.

Regardless of that you need to get with a doctor or endo that can treat your low T and thyroid issues, to have that pain and those pain killers and throw low T on top of it is a recipe for disaster, trust me I do understand how dark it can seem sometimes, get with someone that can help you and educate yourself. The basic protocols for TRT are simple to understand and follow but you will need bloodwork to see where you're at and you MUST remain consistant, think in terms of months rather than days.

[Notpretty]

Okay, I've been emailing my doctor all day and I asked her again for an Estrodil test and asked if it were to come back high would anastazoloe or HCG be prescribed. Response... "No... (To the test and i said i have tender tissue around my nipple which is true at times) and neither of those drugs are recommended for use with testosterone. It's probably is being prescribed by some doctor off-label". She also went on to say that the only way my estrogen could be high is if I am over dosing testosterone. I've been taking exactly what she's prescribed for the last 5 months and had tender titties at times. That has to be testosterone conversion, yes. Maybe the dose the have me taking is too much... In any case I'm about to dump kaiser entirely. She said try Gel...probably because I didn't suggest it and she wants to save face and be in charge... F Kaiser. I have a Medicare card. Time to use it.

Got any links to that method of procedure for spinal fusion. I was up to date on current and new procedures for spinal fusion about 5 years back. I've been busy dealing with this mess and need to get back up to speed. Got links to it? I ran into this problem 5 years back. All the new techniques wanted backs with just one disc involved to try the new stuff on. Mine is fully scar tissue, bone spurs, and is at 3 levels. This is when I lost hope and went to oxy contin. Don't take oxycontin if you can avoid it. All narcs are mind bending and in some cases permanently change the brain's chemistry so you have to take it or go nuts. Also, thanks for the kind words. It's good to hear from someone who knows. Thanks!



So I'm asking again,

[JD250]

Just google XLIF surgery.

Your doc doesn't know shit about TRT....call around to some local compounding pharmacies and ask them which doctors are writing TRT scripts in your area, they may be able to point you towards someone who can help......also, Dr. John Crisler will work/consult with your doctor for a fee. I would seriously consider that option considering some of your issues. You can read about protocols and imitate them as a start but in your case I would want a doc that knows stuff about thyroid and TRT.......check out DR. Crisler and call the compounding pharmacies, you'll find someone bro, don't give up.

[flatscat]

nicely said

Everybody thinks their body is like a finely tuned race car. Newsflash, it aint. when it comes to TRT, our bodies are more like big cruise ships. We thinks punching the throttle or turning on the heat is going to make us go fast and warm up all the rooms. Just like the cruise ship, it takes time for your body to initially react, then to balance itself out.

change only one thing at a time with your protocol, then give it like 3 weeks to really gauge the effects, otherwise you are going to create artificial and damaging swings, plus it gets confusing. if you are changing a lot, you may think you feel better cuz you are on an AI for 5 days, but really you feel better because you backed down your dose 3-4 weeks ago.

this is gonna be a lifetime thing, take your time