Post workout shake question?

[PurpleOnes]

Hi, so I'm currently drinking my protein shake with maltodextrine in it(liquid carb) , is that okay or should I separate them?I would drink protein shake after workout and malto 30min-1 hour after my workout , with food? Or is there any difference?

Did I understood this right, first after workout shake and then 30min-1 hour after I will drank my shake comes real meal with lean protein and complex carbs?

When I'm doing after workout cardio for about 45 mins ,after that cardio session should I wait 30 mins to drink a protein shake or can I drink it right away?

I want answers in details, because I posted this to other forum and got half assed anwers only. Thease might be newbie questions, but I just want to know if thease things are correct. I have read tons of nutriton articles already.

[gbrice75]

You should read my cutting article... seems it would answer alot of your questions!

http://forums.steroid.com/showthread...g#.TrCC85viHBI

[PurpleOnes]

Ok, at bodybuildng.com when I asked thease questions , some dude with really high rep points said that all this stuff that I wrote is irrelevant. Only total calories of the day matters and timing of nutrition is not smart to do. Basicly is it true ?

Personally I beliave in timing , that you have to eat every 2-3 hours and you have to eat 5-7 meals a day.

About protein shake timing, i got advice from here, that after cardio I should drink it after 30 mins.

[auslifta]

What are your goals? Are you on cycle?

[gbrice75]

Ok, at bodybuildng.com when I asked thease questions , some dude with really high rep points said that all this stuff that I wrote is irrelevant. Only total calories of the day matters and timing of nutrition is not smart to do. Basicly is it true ?

Personally I beliave in timing , that you have to eat every 2-3 hours and you have to eat 5-7 meals a day.

About protein shake timing, i got advice from here, that after cardio I should drink it after 30 mins.

Total calories i.e. hitting your macros is most important imo, but it's not ALL there is. However people tend to focus on the other/small stuff without having the big/fundamental stuff in order. I wouldn't call it irrelevant though.

BB dot com are mostly 20 year old douches anyway.

[Dr Pepper]

Total calories i.e. hitting your macros is most important imo, but it's not ALL there is. However people tend to focus on the other/small stuff without having the big/fundamental stuff in order. I wouldn't call it irrelevant though.

BB dot com are mostly 20 year old douches anyway.

Lol agreed. We are clearly the superior website!!!

[PurpleOnes]

Well I'm not cycling, waiting until I'm 24-25 , now I'm 19. I'm trying to learn as much as I can about proper training, dieting, cycling before that.

Well personally advice came from a guy who is 40-years old and has over 10k rep points and other members said that I should listen to him and so on.

Gbrice ty for the link found very good info there.

He also attached this thing to his half assed message:

Here, I'll help you...........

The postexercise "anabolic window" is a highly misused & abused concept. Preworkout nutrition all but cancels the urgency, unless you're an endurance athlete with multiple glycogen-depleting events in a single day. Getting down to brass tacks, a relatively recent study (Power et al. 2009) showed that a 45g dose of whey protein isolate takes appx 50 minutes to cause blood AA levels to peak. Resulting insulin levels, which peaked at 40 minutes after ingestion, remained at elevations known to max out the inhibition of muscle protein breakdown (15-30 mU/L) for 120 minutes after ingestion. This dose takes 3 hours for insulin & AA levels to return to baseline from the point of ingestion. The inclusion of carbs to this dose would cause AA & insulin levels to peak higher & stay elevated above baseline even longer.

So much for the anabolic peephole & the urgency to down AAs during your weight training workout; they are already seeping into circulation (& will continue to do so after your training bout is done). Even in the event that a preworkout meal is skipped, the anabolic effect of the postworkout meal is increased as a supercompensatory response (Deldicque et al, 2010). Moving on, another recent study (Staples et al, 2010) found that a substantial dose of carbohydrate (50g maltodextrin) added to 25g whey protein was unable to further increase postexercise net muscle protein balance compared to the protein dose without carbs. Again, this is not to say that adding carbs at this point is counterproductive, but it certainly doesn't support the idea that you must get your lightning-fast postexercise carb orgy for optimal results.

To add to this... Why has the majority of longer-term research failed to show any meaningful differences in nutrient timing relative to the resistance training bout? It's likely because the body is smarter than we give it credit for. Most people don't know that as a result of a single training bout, the receptivity of muscle to protein dosing can persist for at least 24 hours: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21289204

More from earlier in the thread:

Here's what you're not seeming to grasp: the "windows" for taking advantage of nutrient timing are not little peepholes. They're more like bay windows of a mansion. You're ignoring just how long the anabolic effects are of a typical mixed meal. Depending on the size of a meal, it takes a good 1-2 hours for circulating substrate levels to peak, and it takes a good 3-6 hours (or more) for everythng to drop back down to baseline.

You're also ignoring the fact that the anabolic effects of a meal are maxed out at much lower levels than typical meals drive insulin & amino acids up to. Furthermore, you're also ignoring the body's ability of anabolic (& fat-oxidative) supercompensation when forced to work in the absence of fuels. So, metaphorically speaking, our physiology basically has the universe mapped out and you're thinking it needs to be taught addition & subtraction.

[busybody]

uh...I wouldnt take that as the gospel. there are some, but they aren't major holy crap
issues. first one is first thing in the morning. you just slept 7 or 8 hours. if you drank casein before bed, you are now on empty.
if you drank whey before bed, you've been empty for like 3 hrs. if you ate no protein before bed, then you're an idiot
kidding. seriously, you've been without protein for 8 hours. you need to get some slow sugars and maybe a 50/50 of
whey and casein. that gets it jump started with the whey and the casein provides that good slow distribution.
the second window is pre workout. probably some whey here, and some quick sugars. you're about to be burning major energy,
so don't be scared. just don't overdo it.
third window. post workout. is this a "holy crap gotta run home and get something in me asap or I'm going to die" thing.
probably not. as long as you get something in you within like 1.5 hours postworkout, I'm sure you'll be fine.
and the last window is before sleeping. some slow digesting protein like casein or chicken or turkey or lean beef.
whatever.

the rest of the day is just maintenancing. I think those are the four most important windows.
IMO of course.
What he's saying makes sense from the studies he cites and stuff, but to say that you don't need a postworkout, be
it right away or within 1.5 hours, eh. think about what you've just done to your body.
if you worked out right, you should be in serious muscle trauma.
when i do legs, I cant walk for like two days. you dont want to risk not taking it, because then your
body is gonna tear down your biceps to fix your quads. I always look to the safe side.
I work really hard to gain muscle. I don't want to risk losing some because I felt like
skipping a postworkout meal.

and I know nothing about the bodybuilding.com members, so whatever gbrice says (cause he's a stud here and been
here awhile), then it's probably mostly true.
most of the guys that comment here are tried and true. they have tried it, done it, and gone through
all the pain that you don't have to. they are great resources.

[PurpleOnes]

Ye , ty for that answer, well gbrice has guided me before, so I think I will post my nutrition question only into this section of forum.

[randymeans]

Total calories i.e. hitting your macros is most important imo, but it's not ALL there is. However people tend to focus on the other/small stuff without having the big/fundamental stuff in order. I wouldn't call it irrelevant though.

BB dot com are mostly 20 year old douches anyway.

Its funny because its true!

[jimmyinkedup]

Well I'm not cycling, waiting until I'm 24-25 , now I'm 19. I'm trying to learn as much as I can about proper training, dieting, cycling before that.

Well personally advice came from a guy who is 40-years old and has over 10k rep points and other members said that I should listen to him and so on.

Gbrice ty for the link found very good info there.

He also attached this thing to his half assed message:

Here, I'll help you...........

The postexercise "anabolic window" is a highly misused & abused concept. Preworkout nutrition all but cancels the urgency, unless you're an endurance athlete with multiple glycogen-depleting events in a single day. Getting down to brass tacks, a relatively recent study (Power et al. 2009) showed that a 45g dose of whey protein isolate takes appx 50 minutes to cause blood AA levels to peak. Resulting insulin levels, which peaked at 40 minutes after ingestion, remained at elevations known to max out the inhibition of muscle protein breakdown (15-30 mU/L) for 120 minutes after ingestion. This dose takes 3 hours for insulin & AA levels to return to baseline from the point of ingestion. The inclusion of carbs to this dose would cause AA & insulin levels to peak higher & stay elevated above baseline even longer.

So much for the anabolic peephole & the urgency to down AAs during your weight training workout; they are already seeping into circulation (& will continue to do so after your training bout is done). Even in the event that a preworkout meal is skipped, the anabolic effect of the postworkout meal is increased as a supercompensatory response (Deldicque et al, 2010). Moving on, another recent study (Staples et al, 2010) found that a substantial dose of carbohydrate (50g maltodextrin) added to 25g whey protein was unable to further increase postexercise net muscle protein balance compared to the protein dose without carbs. Again, this is not to say that adding carbs at this point is counterproductive, but it certainly doesn't support the idea that you must get your lightning-fast postexercise carb orgy for optimal results.

To add to this... Why has the majority of longer-term research failed to show any meaningful differences in nutrient timing relative to the resistance training bout? It's likely because the body is smarter than we give it credit for. Most people don't know that as a result of a single training bout, the receptivity of muscle to protein dosing can persist for at least 24 hours: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21289204

More from earlier in the thread:

Here's what you're not seeming to grasp: the "windows" for taking advantage of nutrient timing are not little peepholes. They're more like bay windows of a mansion. You're ignoring just how long the anabolic effects are of a typical mixed meal. Depending on the size of a meal, it takes a good 1-2 hours for circulating substrate levels to peak, and it takes a good 3-6 hours (or more) for everythng to drop back down to baseline.

You're also ignoring the fact that the anabolic effects of a meal are maxed out at much lower levels than typical meals drive insulin & amino acids up to. Furthermore, you're also ignoring the body's ability of anabolic (& fat-oxidative) supercompensation when forced to work in the absence of fuels. So, metaphorically speaking, our physiology basically has the universe mapped out and you're thinking it needs to be taught addition & subtraction.

This is from Alan Aragon or at least someone that knows hius writings extensively. Id pay attention to it as he is one of the foremost nbutritional minds bodybuilding has to offer. Its good info....

[gbrice75]

Moi?? A stud? lol thx

Funny Jimmy... reading this, it sounded just like Aragon's style. I don't personally agree with all of his viewpoints, but he does make some sense.

[jimmyinkedup]

Moi?? A stud? lol thx

Funny Jimmy... reading this, it sounded just like Aragon's style. I don't personally agree with all of his viewpoints, but he does make some sense.

I agree with almost all of his contentions ..i just hate his juvinile sarcasm at times. The "insulin fairy" and "straw man argument" statements and so on - fvcking stupid. I suppose it has to do with the fact that he is paid to post at the most juvinille site on the net so he often acts accordingly. I have read some great stuff by him where he doesnt sound like that - its much more pleasant to read.

[gbrice75]

I agree with almost all of his contentions ..i just hate his juvinile sarcasm at times. The "insulin fairy" and "straw man argument" statements and so on - fvcking stupid. I suppose it has to do with the fact that he is paid to post at the most juvinille site on the net so he often acts accordingly. I have read some great stuff by him where he doesnt sound like that - its much more pleasant to read.

I've talked to Nark a bit about Alan's work... I don't know whether he would appreciate me sharing his thoughts here, but he gave me a different perspective on Alan to say the least.

[Doctapeppa]

It definitely matters. Although muscle synthesis might not be directly affected by timing or whether there is or isn't an anabolic window isn't the only important thing when it comes to peri-workout nutrition.

Try different things and see what works best for you. I trained completely fasted for a few months because of something I read and I thought it was going great. One day I decided to try having a small amount of whey and carbs before my workout and I got like 3 extra reps on almost every exercise! Now I have a shake before every workout. If you feel like crap during your workout you are going to have a crap workout and your results are going to be sub optimal. If you feel good without eating, then rest assured, that the science is there that you don't need to blast a shake as soon as you finish lifting.

Everyone is a little bit different and if you are having crap workout, then dammit do what makes you feel better and you will have better results whether it is backed by science or not. Don't do something because someone tells you it's better. Do it because it works for YOU.

[gbrice75]

I trained completely fasted for a few months because of something I read and I thought it was going great. One day I decided to try having a small amount of whey and carbs before my workout and I got like 3 extra reps on almost every exercise!

Did you stop to think this could simply be due to your body's adjustment to having trained fasted for so long, and the instant change gave you a nice boost? This could have even been a psycho-somatic boost. What i'd be interested to know is if you were able to maintain/improve on these additional reps several days, weeks, and months later. And if you went back to fasted - would those reps drop again? Unlikely.

I trained fasted for a good couple of months (IF actually)... 10g BCAA pre workout and that was it. Even more interesting, I postponed my PWO meal for several hours... and managed to make gains and beat the previous week's record... literally each and every week throughout.

Now I have a shake before every workout. If you feel like crap during your workout you are going to have a crap workout and your results are going to be sub optimal. If you feel good without eating, then rest assured, that the science is there that you don't need to blast a shake as soon as you finish lifting.

No argument here!

Everyone is a little bit different and if you are having crap workout, then dammit do what makes you feel better and you will have better results whether it is backed by science or not. Don't do something because someone tells you it's better. Do it because it works for YOU.

Now we're talkin'! Trial and error. We all need to find what's best suited for us, individually. There is nothing at all cookie-cutter about this game.

[jimmyinkedup]

I've talked to Nark a bit about Alan's work... I don't know whether he would appreciate me sharing his thoughts here, but he gave me a different perspective on Alan to say the least.

well im certain you and i have a very diff perspective when it comes to Nark....so we can leave it at that. ;-)

[Doctapeppa]

Did you stop to think this could simply be due to your body's adjustment to having trained fasted for so long, and the instant change gave you a nice boost? This could have even been a psycho-somatic boost. What i'd be interested to know is if you were able to maintain/improve on these additional reps several days, weeks, and months later. And if you went back to fasted - would those reps drop again? Unlikely.

It could be some sort of adjustment, sure. It could be psycho-somatic. I don't know. This was morning fasted training with Leangains and after 10g BCAA. Maybe the BCAA I was using was crap and when I had whey/carbs instead I actually got the aminos I needed. I need more experimenting to know what is really going on but for now, I have no reason to quit the shake. I'll try different things out on my next cut but for now, I'm making progress so I'm sticking with it.

[gbrice75]

well im certain you and i have a very diff perspective when it comes to Nark....so we can leave it at that. ;-)

Haha, I know you and Nark haven't always seen eye to eye on things in the past!! Amazing we're pals you and I, huh Jimmy??

It could be some sort of adjustment, sure. It could be psycho-somatic. I don't know. This was morning fasted training with Leangains and after 10g BCAA. Maybe the BCAA I was using was crap and when I had whey/carbs instead I actually got the aminos I needed. I need more experimenting to know what is really going on but for now, I have no reason to quit the shake. I'll try different things out on my next cut but for now, I'm making progress so I'm sticking with it.

Cool bro. Btw in case it sounded like it, I wasn't calling you out or anything, just suggesting a possibility as to why the big boost. The meal most certainly could have done it, physically. As for me, I've been off IF (Leangains as well actually) for quite a few months and back to eating a more traditional bodybuilding type diet. Preworkout also happens to be my first meal of the day... my favorite!

[jimmyinkedup]

It definitely matters. Although muscle synthesis might not be directly affected by timing or whether there is or isn't an anabolic window isn't the only important thing when it comes to peri-workout nutrition.

Try different things and see what works best for you. I trained completely fasted for a few months because of something I read and I thought it was going great. One day I decided to try having a small amount of whey and carbs before my workout and I got like 3 extra reps on almost every exercise! Now I have a shake before every workout. If you feel like crap during your workout you are going to have a crap workout and your results are going to be sub optimal. If you feel good without eating, then rest assured, that the science is there that you don't need to blast a shake as soon as you finish lifting.

Everyone is a little bit different and if you are having crap workout, then dammit do what makes you feel better and you will have better results whether it is backed by science or not. Don't do something because someone tells you it's better. Do it because it works for YOU.

Im not being sarcastic because i may very well have missed something but i thought this entire thread was about post workout shake/nutrition ....and your post here revolves entirely around pre workout shake/nutrition ?? That being said there is def alot of truth in the last 2 sentences of your post.

[PurpleOnes]

Well I think I will just experiment with my it.

I could have shake right after cardio or after I came home and took shower . 1 hour after shake I would prepare my real meal.

After workout and post workout cardio, which is 45 minutes 4x week at 65 % max heart rate for me. Is there need for carbs in the shake or just whey protein will do fine?

I think , that I have little problem with experimenting, because I fear that everything will be messed up ;(

[Doctapeppa]

Im not being sarcastic because i may very well have missed something but i thought this entire thread was about post workout shake/nutrition ....and your post here revolves entirely around pre workout shake/nutrition ?? That being said there is def alot of truth in the last 2 sentences of your post.

Lol, you're right! Got a little off track, sorry. It was because of the quote from Alan or whoever wrote that and they are implying that timing doesn't matter at all.

[jimmyinkedup]

Lol, you're right! Got a little off track, sorry. It was because of the quote from Alan or whoever wrote that and they are implying that timing doesn't matter at all.

Ahh got it. That ties it together better for me! I just got lost for second there..looking at your post and the OP - my bad.