New to cycling? Some things to consider....

[Juice Authority]

First, you don't need to stack a bunch of different compounds. Running a low to moderate dose of test (300-500mgs/wk) is all you need as a starting point. I ran Sust for my first cycle but Test E or Cyp work just as fine. In fact, it's probably better to start off with long acting esters to let the body play "catch up". Kickstarting with an oral or front loading is completely unnecessary, imo. Second, get the right supplements....old school stuff like BCAAs, fish oils, desiccated liver tabs, Liv52, a good multi and vitamin C to reduce cortisol levels. Sounds pretty basic, right? It is and it's cheap. Third, pick a workout routine and stick with it. Consistency is the key to gains regardless of your goals. Lastly, and probably most important, get a solid nutritional plan. This is by far the most important part. AAS increases protein synthesis. Macro nutrient timing is everything. Knowing what to eat and when makes all the difference in the world. There are lots of guys on here that really know their shit when it comes to nutrition. Take advantage of that. I personally take aminos with every meal. I don't use a lot of protein powder. I much prefer to get my nutrients from actual food. For pre-work I'll drink Vitargo S2 with aminos (8:1:1) ratio made by USPlabs. You can buy at it Vitamin Shoppe online or BB.com.

[buknutter]

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[BG]

This is a great help. Im new to it all, and think this helps me massively.
Got a good multi, with added vitamin c effervescent tablets, bcaa, just need liver and fish oil stuff. My diets pretty good. Loads of chicken every day and carbs in pasta and rice etc, going to start test on Saturday for 10 weeks unless I need longer? And just need to research a good pct.

Diets pretty good, get it dialed in and your results will be much better. I would wait a few weeks before going on and get that diet right, trust me you will be glad you did. Do a search for priming before cycling, Marcus has a great thread.

[buknutter]

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[gixxerboy1]

I will do mate, thanks alot. Any pct advice for me? Too much conflicting info is getting me confused.

Start an new thread on that so we dont hijack this one. Let me know what yuor taking i'd be glad to help

[Swifto]

First, you don't need to stack a bunch of different compounds. Running a low to moderate dose of test (300-500mgs/wk) is all you need as a starting point. I ran Sust for my first cycle but Test E or Cyp work just as fine. In fact, it's probably better to start off with long acting esters to let the body play "catch up". Kickstarting with an oral or front loading is completely unnecessary, imo. Second, get the right supplements....old school stuff like BCAAs, fish oils, desiccated liver tabs, Liv52, a good multi and vitamin C to reduce cortisol levels. Sounds pretty basic, right? It is and it's cheap. Third, pick a workout routine and stick with it. Consistency is the key to gains regardless of your goals. Lastly, and probably most important, get a solid nutritional plan. This is by far the most important part. AAS increases protein synthesis. Macro nutrient timing is everything. Knowing what to eat and when makes all the difference in the world. There are lots of guys on here that really know their shit when it comes to nutrition. Take advantage of that. I personally take aminos with every meal. I don't use a lot of protein powder. I much prefer to get my nutrients from actual food. For pre-work I'll drink Vitargo S2 with aminos (8:1:1) ratio made by USPlabs. You can buy at it Vitamin Shoppe online or BB.com.

You forgot paragraphs.

[Juice Authority]

This is a great help. Im new to it all, and think this helps me massively.
Got a good multi, with added vitamin c effervescent tablets, bcaa, just need liver and fish oil stuff. My diets pretty good. Loads of chicken every day and carbs in pasta and rice etc, going to start test on Saturday for 10 weeks unless I need longer? And just need to research a good pct.

10 weeks is perfect. You'll probably notice the greatest gains between weeks 5-8 if you're running long acting esters.

Another thing on cortisol....cortisol levels rise when the body is under stress. Training increases cortisol levels. I typically take 1,000mgs in the am after my daily coffee intake (caffeine also raises cortisol levels) and another 2,000mgs post workout.

Also, the body can only absorb so much protein at a time so it's best to eat smaller meals throughout the day (i.e. every 2 hrs). I make my food for the day the night before and put it in a large tupperware container.

Once you've got a diet plan and training routine put together I would start that first, give it at least a few weeks, and then start your cycle.

Don't make the mistake me and countless others made have through the years and start your cycle without ALL your PCT meds and a defined protocol - there are many stickies that address this. The last thing you want to do is search around for PCT meds at the last minute.

[Swifto]

10 weeks is perfect. You'll probably notice the greatest gains between weeks 5-8 if you're running long acting esters.

Another thing on cortisol....cortisol levels rise when the body is under stress. Training increases cortisol levels. I typically take 1,000mgs in the am after my daily coffee intake (caffeine also raises cortisol levels) and another 2,000mgs post workout.

Also, the body can only absorb so much protein at a time so it's best to eat smaller meals throughout the day (i.e. every 2 hrs). I make my food for the day the night before and put it in a large tupperware container.

Once you've got a diet plan and training routine put together I would start that first, give it at least a few weeks, and then start your cycle.

Don't make the mistake me and countless others made have through the years and start your cycle without ALL your PCT meds and a defined protocol - there are many stickies that address this. The last thing you want to do is search around for PCT meds at the last minute.

Not true.

The only benifit having smaller meals is that some people dont think they can eat their daily protein intake in 3-4 meals, so split it.

Or cutting and using foods thermogenic effects.

If your daily protein intake is 300g/ED and you split it into 2 meals of 150g each meal. The body will use it. It wont use 60g and excrete the other 90g's as it cannot digest it. If it needs it, it will use it. No such thing as, "you can only digest X amount of PRO".

[Juice Authority]

^^Your body’s protein absorption abilities will vary depending on the type of protein consumed. There's no set rule that applies to everyone. Generally speaking, 30-50gms is the max amount that can be fully absorbed in one meal. The excess protein that is not absorbed is stored as fat at the time its being absorbed. Protein absorption is greatest post-workout but not all proteins are created equal and takes different times to be fully absorbed. That's why spreading out your meals is the best way to go to maximize protein absorption, imo.

[Swifto]

^^Your body’s protein absorption abilities will vary depending on the type of protein consumed. There's no set rule that applies to everyone. Generally speaking, 30-50gms is the max amount that can be fully absorbed in one meal. The excess protein that is not absorbed is stored as fat at the time its being absorbed. Protein absorption is greatest post-workout but not all proteins are created equal and takes different times to be fully absorbed. That's why spreading out your meals is the best way to go to maximize protein absorption, imo.

No JA, again, you're wrong. I base my theory's of data, you should know that by now.

Where are you reading this from?



Here's Alan Aragon on the subject, link is here.

Is there a limit to how much protein the body can use in a single meal?


Introduction

A longstanding belief in fitness circles is that the body can only use a certain amount of protein per meal, and the excess is either oxidized or excreted. The ballpark range thrown around is 20-30 grams, with 30 grams being perhaps the most common figure.

This guideline has led many trainees to go through the pains of consuming multiple doses of protein throughout the day, banking that it will maximize muscle anabolism or muscle retention.

Well, true or not, this concept fits in nicely with another longstanding fitness “rule” that you have to eat at least six times per day in order to keep the body’s metabolism revving high. Since the meal frequency and metabolism dogma has been thoroughly debunked [1-5], it’s time to dig into the topic of whether there’s a limit to effective protein dosing, and if so, what that limit might be.

Looking at simple logic first

Let’s imagine an experiment involving two relatively lean 200 lb individuals. For the purposes of this illustration, I’ll assign a daily amount of protein known to adequately support the needs of the athletic population. We’ll give Person A 150 g protein spread over five meals at 30 g each. We’ll give Person B the same amount of protein, but in a single meal. Let’s say that this meal consists of a 16 oz steak, chased with a shake containing two scoops of protein powder.

If we really believed that only 30 g protein can be handled by the body in a single meal, then Person B would eventually run into protein deficiency symptoms because he supposedly is only absorbing a total of 30 g out of the 150 g we’re giving him. At 30 g/day, he’s only getting 0.33 g/kg of bodyweight, which isn’t even half of the already-low RDA of 0.8 g/kg. If the body worked this way, the human species would have quickly become extinct. The human body is more efficient and effective than we give it credit for.

The body will take all the sweet time it needs to effectively digest and absorb just about whatever dose you give it. Person A will have shorter digestion periods per meal in order to effectively absorb and utilize the small meals. Person B will have a longer digestion period in order to effectively absorb and utilize the large meal. While the truth in this logic seems self-evident, the important question is whether or not it’s supported by scientific research. Let’s look at the evidence, starting with immediate-effect (acute) studies, then move on to the longer-term trials.

Research examining speed of absorption

A thorough literature review by Bilsborough and Mann compiled data from studies by various investigators who measured the absorption rates of various protein sources [6]. Oddly, an amino acid mixture designed to mimic the composition of pork tenderloin made the top spot, at 10 g/hour, while whey took a close second at 8-10 g/hour. Other proteins fell in their respective spots below the top two, with little rhyme or reason behind the outcomes. As a matter of trivia, raw egg protein was the most slowly absorbed of them all at 1.3 g/hour.

It’s important to note that these data have some serious limitations. A major one is the variance of the methods used to determine the absorption rates (i.e., intravenous infusion, oral ingestion, ileal ingestion). Most of the methods are just too crude or far-fetched for serious consideration. Another limitation is that these figures could be skewed depending upon their concentration in solution, which can affect their rate of gastric evacuation. Another factor to consider is the timing of ingestion relative to exercise and how that might differentially affect absorption rates. Finally, short-term data leaves a lot open to question.

Short-term research supporting the magic limit

I’ve heard many folks parrot that the maximal anabolic effect of a single protein dose is limited to 20 grams, citing recent work by Moore and colleagues [7]. In this study’s 4-hour post-exercise test period, 40 g protein did not elicit a greater anabolic response than 20 g. I’d interpret these outcomes with caution. Fundamentally speaking, protein utilization can differ according to muscle mass. The requirements of a 140-lb person will differ markedly from someone who’s a lean 200. Additionally, a relatively low amount of total volume was used (12 sets total). Typical training bouts usually involve more than one muscle group and are commonly at least double that volume, which can potentially increase the demand for nutrient uptake. Finally, the conclusion of the authors is questionable. They state explicitly,

“…we speculate that no more than 5-6 times daily could one ingest this amount (~20 g) of protein and expect muscle protein synthesis to be maximally stimulated.”

So, they’re implying that 100-120 grams of protein per day is maximal for promoting muscle growth. Wait a minute, what? Based on both the bulk of the research evidence and numerous field observations, this is simply false [8,9].

In another recent study, Symons and colleagues compared the 5-hour response of a moderate serving of lean beef containing 30 g protein with a large serving containing 90 g protein [10]. The smaller serving increased protein synthesis by approximately 50%, and the larger serving caused no further increase in protein synthesis, despite being triple the dose. The researchers concluded that the ingestion of more than 30 g protein in a single meal does not further enhance muscle protein synthesis. While their conclusion indeed supports the outcomes of their short-term study, it’s pretty easy to predict the outcomes in muscle size and strength if we compared a total daily protein dose of 90 g with 30 g over a longer trial period, let alone one involving a structured exercise protocol. This brings me to the crucial point that acute outcomes merely provide grounds for hypothesis. It’s not completely meaningless, but it’s far from conclusive without examining the long-term effects.

Longer-term research challenging the magic limit

If we were to believe the premise that a 20-30 g dose of protein yields a maximal anabolic effect, then it follows that any excess beyond this dose would be wasted. On the contrary, the body is smarter than that. In a 14-day trial, Arnal and colleagues found no difference in fat-free mass or nitrogen retention between consuming 79% of the day’s protein needs (roughly 54 g) in one meal, versus the same amount spread across four meals [11].

Notably, this study was done on young female adults whose fat-free mass averaged 40.8 kg (89.8 lb). Considering that most non-sedentary males have considerably more lean mass than the female subjects used in the aforementioned trial, it’s plausible that much more than 54 g protein in a single meal can be efficiently processed for anabolic and/or anti-catabolic purposes. If we extrapolated the protein dose used in this study (79% of 1.67g/kg) to the average adult male, it would be roughly 85-95 g or even more, depending on just how close someone is to the end of the upper limits of muscular size.

When Arnal and colleagues applied the same protocol to the elderly population, the single-dose treatment actually caused better muscle protein retention than the multiple-dose treatment [12]. This raises the possibility that as we age, larger protein feedings might be necessary to achieve the same effect on protein retention as lesser amounts in our youth.

IF research nailing the coffin shut?

Increase muscle mass and strength with AtLarge Nutrition Results
Perhaps the strongest case against the idea of a dosing limit beyond which anabolism or muscle retention can occur is the recent intermittent fasting (IF) research, particularly the trials with a control group on a conventional diet. For example, Soeters and colleagues compared two weeks of IF involving 20-hour fasting cycles with a conventional diet [13]. Despite the IF group’s consumption of an average of 101 g protein in a 4-hour window, there was no difference in preservation of lean mass and muscle protein between groups.

In another example, Stote and colleagues actually reported an improvement in body composition (including an increase in lean mass) after 8 weeks in the IF group consuming one meal per day, where roughly 86 g protein was ingested in a 4-hour window [14]. Interestingly, the conventional group consuming three meals spread throughout the day showed no significant body composition improvements.

Keep in mind that bioelectrical impedance (BIA) was used to determine body composition, so these outcomes should be viewed with caution. I’ve been highly critical of this study in the past, and I still am. Nevertheless, it cannot be completely written off and must be factored into the body of evidence against the idea of a magic protein dose limit.

Conclusion & application

Based on the available evidence, it’s false to assume that the body can only use a certain amount of protein per meal. Studies examining short-term effects have provided hints towards what might be an optimal protein dose for maximizing anabolism, but trials drawn out over longer periods haven’t supported this idea. So, is there a limit to how much protein per meal can be effectively used? Yes there is, but this limit is likely similar to the amount that’s maximally effective in an entire day. What’s the most protein that the body can effectively use in an entire day? The short answer is, a lot more than 20-30 g. The long answer is, it depends on several factors. In most cases it’s not too far from a gram per pound in drug-free trainees, given that adequate total calories are provided [8,9].

In terms of application, I’ve consistently observed the effectiveness of having approximately a quarter of your target bodyweight in both the pre- and post-exercise meal. Note: target bodyweight is a surrogate index of lean mass, and I use that to avoid making skewed calculations in cases where individuals are markedly over- or underweight. This dose surpasses the amounts seen to cause a maximal anabolic response but doesn’t impinge upon the rest of the day’s protein allotment, which can be distributed as desired. On days off from training, combine or split up your total protein allotment according to your personal preference and digestive tolerance. I realize that freedom and flexibility are uncommon terms in physique culture, but maybe it’s time for a paradigm shift.

In sum, view all information – especially gym folklore and short-term research – with caution. Don’t buy into the myth that protein won’t get used efficiently unless it’s dosed sparingly throughout the day. Hopefully, future research will definitively answer how different dosing schemes with various protein types affect relevant endpoints such as size and strength. In the mean time, feel free to eat the whole steak and drink the whole shake, and if you want to get the best bang for your buck, go for a quality protein blend such as Nitrean!

Written By Alan Aragon

References

1. Smeets AJ, Westerterp-Plantenga MS. Acute effects on metabolism and appetite profile of one meal difference in the lower range of meal frequency. Br J Nutr. 2008 Jun;99(6):1316-21.

2. Taylor MA, Garrow JS. Compared with nibbling, neither gorging nor a morning fast affect short-term energy balance in obese patients in a chamber calorimeter. Int J Obes Relat Metab Disord. 2001 Apr;25(4):519-28.

3. Bellisle F, McDevitt R, Prentice AM. Meal frequency and energy balance. Br J Nutr. 1997 Apr;77 Suppl 1:S57-70.

4. Verboeket-van de Venne WP, Westerterp KR. Frequency of feeding, weight reduction and energy metabolism. Int J Obes Relat Metab Disord. 1993 Jan;17(1):31-6.

5. Verboeket-van de Venne WP, Westerterp KR. Influence of the feeding frequency on nutrient utilization in man: consequences for energy metabolism. Eur J Clin Nutr. 1991 Mar;45(3):161-9.

6. Bilsborough S, Mann N. A review of issues of dietary protein intake in humans. Int J Sport Nutr Exerc Metab. 2006 Apr;16(2):129-52.

7. Moore DR, et al. Ingested protein dose response of muscle and albumin protein synthesis after resistance exercise in young men. Am J Clin Nutr. 2009 Jan;89(1):161-8.

8. Campbell B, et al. International Society of Sports Nutrition position stand: protein and exercise. J Int Soc Sports Nutr. 2007 Sep 26;4:8.

9. Tipton KD, Wolfe RR. Protein and amino acids for athletes. J Sports Sci. 2004 Jan;22(1):65-79.

10. Symons TB, et al. A moderate serving of high-quality protein maximally stimulates skeletal muscle protein synthesis in young and elderly subjects. J Am Diet Assoc. 2009 Sep;109(9):1582-6.

11. Arnal MA, et al. Protein feeding pattern does not affect protein retention in young women. J Nutr. 2000 Jul;130(7):1700-4.

12. Arnal MA, et al. Protein pulse feeding improves protein retention in elderly women. Am J Clin Nutr. 1999 Jun;69(6):1202-8.

13. Soeters MR, et al. Intermittent fasting does not affect whole-body glucose, lipid, or protein metabolism. Am J Clin Nutr. 2009 Nov;90(5):1244-51.

14. Stote KS, et al. A controlled trial of reduced meal frequency without caloric restriction in healthy, normal-weight, middle-aged adults. Am J Clin Nutr. 2007 Apr;85(4):981-8.

[Swifto]

Second, excess protein will not "be stored as fat".

Excess dietary protein increases protein oxidation, impairing fat oxidation; more of your daily fat intake is stored as fat. Protein itself does not "make you fat".

Read Lyle McDonalds Article on 'Why We Get Fat', here.

[BG]

Ouch.....

[Swifto]

Ouch.....

You will not go wrong learning about nutrition by reading, Alan Aragon, Lyle McDonald and Layne Norton.

Although, they dont agree on some things - BCAA supplementation. But ALL are backed by data.

[Swifto]

First, you don't need to stack a bunch of different compounds. Running a low to moderate dose of test (300-500mgs/wk) is all you need as a starting point. I ran Sust for my first cycle but Test E or Cyp work just as fine. In fact, it's probably better to start off with long acting esters to let the body play "catch up". Kickstarting with an oral or front loading is completely unnecessary, imo. Second, get the right supplements....old school stuff like BCAAs, fish oils, desiccated liver tabs, Liv52, a good multi and vitamin C to reduce cortisol levels. Sounds pretty basic, right? It is and it's cheap. Third, pick a workout routine and stick with it. Consistency is the key to gains regardless of your goals. Lastly, and probably most important, get a solid nutritional plan. This is by far the most important part. AAS increases protein synthesis. Macro nutrient timing is everything. Knowing what to eat and when makes all the difference in the world. There are lots of guys on here that really know their shit when it comes to nutrition. Take advantage of that. I personally take aminos with every meal. I don't use a lot of protein powder. I much prefer to get my nutrients from actual food. For pre-work I'll drink Vitargo S2 with aminos (8:1:1) ratio made by USPlabs. You can buy at it Vitamin Shoppe online or BB.com.

Back to thread....


Do you use desiccated liver tabs JA? Noticed a difference?

I eat lambs liver 3-4x week anyhow. In fact, my dinner just gone included it.

[Juice Authority]

I eat desiccated liver with each meal.

[dec11]

Second, excess protein will not "be stored as fat".

Excess dietary protein increases protein oxidation, impairing fat oxidation; more of your daily fat intake is stored as fat. Protein itself does not "make you fat".

Read Lyle McDonalds Article on 'Why We Get Fat', here.

good reading on that site