Made trip to see Dr. Crisler

[Ibreakspawns]

So, I'm on the road to recovery, and if you feel lost, or helpless, or feel like you have to educate your doctor on this. Please, save all your energy and just see Dr. Crisler. He is cool as hell, and made me feel like he cared, and I wasn't judged at all. Worth every penny.

I would also like to thank gdevine for educating me about all of this stuff. I'll certainly keep updating

[HitIt]

some docs get it, some don't...glad to hear you're on your way.

[yannick35]

some docs get it, some don't...glad to hear you're on your way.

Amen to that bro, mine really DON'T. Thanks gdevine now i understand the whole sub q deal, and i have the same symptoms has OP, i will start sub q next week when i inject again.

[steroid.com 1]

Great news man...so happy for you

Note, Dr. Crisler sees you as E2 dominant.

Test injections in smaller more frequent doses via SQ.

SQ = lower conversion to E2 than IM.

Validates the injection methodology.

[Ibreakspawns]

Great news man...so happy for you

Note, Dr. Crisler sees you as E2 dominant.

Test injections in smaller more frequent doses via SQ.

SQ = lower conversion to E2 than IM.

Validates the injection methodology.

Thanks, gdevine. I'm pretty excited.

That's correct. Compared to intramuscular, I don't have the adrenaline rush from the pain. So, I'm like "Is it going to work?" lol

[Swifto]

Great news man...so happy for you

Note, Dr. Crisler sees you as E2 dominant.

Test injections in smaller more frequent doses via SQ.

SQ = lower conversion to E2 than IM.

Validates the injection methodology.

Exactly.

[flatscat]

Great news man...so happy for you

Note, Dr. Crisler sees you as E2 dominant.

Test injections in smaller more frequent doses via SQ.

SQ = lower conversion to E2 than IM.

Validates the injection methodology.

This is very interesting. But in my opinion the only thing that validates a methodology is something that has been proven and documented. I agree Crisler seems as he is one of many on the leading edge of this - but if you say his recommended protocols validates something you are saying that all his previous recommendations were a validation as well. And, as you stated in another thread, you and your physician disagree with some of the levels Crisler uses as standards - so because you disagree with him does that make his beliefs/practice on that subject incorrect and therefor not validated?

You know me GD - nothing personal, just another view of statements made here.

I hope that this protocol works perfectly for the OP, and anyone else that is on it or moves to it.

[steroid.com 1]

This is very interesting. But in my opinion the only thing that validates a methodology is something that has been proven and documented. I agree Crisler seems as he is one of many on the leading edge of this - but if you say his recommended protocols validates something you are saying that all his previous recommendations were a validation as well. And, as you stated in another thread, you and your physician disagree with some of the levels Crisler uses as standards - so because you disagree with him does that make his beliefs/practice on that subject incorrect and therefor not validated?

You know me GD - nothing personal, just another view of statements made here.

I hope that this protocol works perfectly for the OP, and anyone else that is on it or moves to it.

J - Never take it personal man, it's stimulating conversation and good debate.

You may be reading to much into this post.

Crisler diagnosed the OP as E2 dominant.

His mode for Testosterone injection based on this diagnosis is SQ and not IM.

Possible Rational: SQ converts slower to E2 versus IM.

Crisler is not the only MD who subscribes to SQ for the same reason.

My point on "validation" was directed to the fact that Crisler has apparently adopted this mode of injection for the reason stated; that being the slower conversion to E2 via SQ opposed to IM.

[JD250]

Yea buddy!!! That's the best damn story I've heard in a long time, it's nice to hear about someones success from time to time. Thanks for sharing and don't be afraid to keep us updated on this thread .......sharing your story and protocol will help people who desperately need answers and encouragement so don't be a stranger.

GD, I've mentioned that my acne is better since I started sub Q, can't prove anything but this sure makes me think that sub Q is responsible for at least part of my improvement.

[Ibreakspawns]

Yea buddy!!! That's the best damn story I've heard in a long time, it's nice to hear about someones success from time to time. Thanks for sharing and don't be afraid to keep us updated on this thread .......sharing your story and protocol will help people who desperately need answers and encouragement so don't be a stranger.

GD, I've mentioned that my acne is better since I started sub Q, can't prove anything but this sure makes me think that sub Q is responsible for at least part of my improvement.

Yeah, I plan on sticking around, JD. I have acne too, mild, but hopefully this method helps out with my acne. I'll certainly let you know!

Wish you continued success, bro

[Swifto]

Hello, all. It has been a rough eight months visiting with various doctors. A few doctors said "There is nothing wrong with you". A couple said "Well, we can put you on AD & Viagra" And the rest knew I had a problem but didn't have the 'know how', and I suffered from the symptoms.

So, that brings in Dr. Crisler.

First off, I'm 23 years old, and have been diagnosed with Primary Hypogonadism; Had MRI to rule out tumor. I'm 6 foot 3, about 182 lbs. I was taking 200 MG every two weeks intramuscular and that was leaving with a bunch of horrible symptoms, water retention, nipple sensitivity, etc. I talked to my doctor at the time and was like "We should check estrogen" he said "It's not important"

I made the trip to see Dr. Crisler, and he said that it seems I'm estrogenic; Meaning I convert over to estrogen easier. So, he thinks injecting more frequenlty EOD with smaller injections in my stomach would cut down on the amount of estrogen I produce. I did my first injection last night, and it was painless, no nodule, no abcess, easy. He also prescribed me HCG to do everyday. I haven't recieved that yet, but plan to start the HCG next week.

So, I'm on the road to recovery, and if you feel lost, or helpless, or feel like you have to educate your doctor on this. Please, save all your energy and just see Dr. Crisler. He is cool as hell, and made me feel like he cared, and I wasn't judged at all. Worth every penny.

I would also like to thank gdevine for educating me about all of this stuff. I'll certainly keep updating

He put you on HCG "every day"?

What dose and for what duration?

[Ibreakspawns]

He put you on HCG "every day"?

What dose and for what duration?

I can't really remember. But, yes, it was ED. I will let ya know once the HCG get here!

[SlimmerMe]

Good for you. Smart move. I bet you are happy.

[Ibreakspawns]

Good for you. Smart move. I bet you are happy.

Yes, Ma'am. It sure was a smart move. And, I'm very happy!

[steroid.com 1]

Keep in mind, he's only 23 years old and E2 dominate.

hCG ED
* More consistent and stable levels (more natural)
* Stimulate more natural Test production (if not Primary)
* Lower doses controls E2 and intratesticular E2
* Better ongoing sense of well being (increased libido)

I have always been a big proponent of smaller doses more frequently of both Test and hCG.

Hell, even taking an AI in everyday in smaller doses is better then once or twice a week in controlling E2 and stabilizing levels.

Problem is many folks just can't stick to that type of protocol so Doc's go weekly which seems to have a better efficacy rate.

[Swifto]

Keep in mind, he's only 23 years old and E2 dominate.

hCG ED
* More consistent and stable levels (more natural)
* Stimulate more natural Test production (if not Primary)
* Lower doses controls E2 and intratesticular E2
* Better ongoing sense of well being (increased libido)

I have always been a big proponent of smaller doses more frequently of both Test and hCG.

Hell, even taking an AI in everyday in smaller doses is better then once or twice a week in controlling E2 and stabilizing levels.

Problem is many folks just can't stick to that type of protocol so Doc's go weekly which seems to have a better efficacy rate.

Have you forgotten about leydig cell refraction post administration?

[steroid.com 1]

Have you forgotten about leydig cell refraction post administration?

He's Primary Hypogonadal and E2 dominant so I don't know how much this comes into play...if at all.

Crisler believes in hCG therapy for both Primary and Secondary.

Obviously, we understand hCG administration efficacy for Secondary but Primary???

Yes!

Here's why; Crisler believes that hCG acts wya more than just an LH analog as much as it acts as a powerful neurohormone. He claims (see below) Primary men really feel much better (increased libido, sense of well being...) when hCG is added into their protocol and it also may help rebalance the expression of other hormones as well.

Crisler: "It is my belief this may be a factor in the heightened sense of well-being my patients report throughout the week—far in excess of what a nominal dose of HCG would produce by virtue of induced testosterone production".

[Swifto]

He's Primary Hypogonadal and E2 dominant so I don't know how much this comes into play...if at all.

Crisler believes in hCG therapy for both Primary and Secondary.

Obviously, we understand hCG administration efficacy for Secondary but Primary???

Yes!

Here's why; Crisler believes that hCG acts wya more than just an LH analog as much as it acts as a powerful neurohormone. He claims (see below) Primary men really feel much better (increased libido, sense of well being...) when hCG is added into their protocol and it also may help rebalance the expression of other hormones as well.

Crisler: "It is my belief this may be a factor in the heightened sense of well-being my patients report throughout the week—far in excess of what a nominal dose of HCG would produce by virtue of induced testosterone production".

I dont see how E2 dominance changes leydig cell refraction.

He's primary, so he's probably lacking LH receptors in his testes, they're shot or some other possibilites. I guess it comes down to why his testes are failing and primary hypogonadism subjects may not experience the refraction. But they also wont respond to HCG very well.

I still wouldnt ever suggest it ED. Neither would Dr. Scally and this is an example of how they often disagree on subjects.

I'm not saying HCG shouldn't be used, I'm questioning the ED protocol. I know of its benifits to "well being".

[steroid.com 1]

I dont see how E2 dominance changes leydig cell refraction.

He's primary, so he's probably lacking LH receptors in his testes, they're shot or some other possibilites. I guess it comes down to why his testes are failing and primary hypogonadism subjects may not experience the refraction. But they also wont respond to HCG very well.

I still wouldnt ever suggest it ED. Neither would Dr. Scally and this is an example of how they often disagree on subjects.

I'm not saying HCG shouldn't be used, I'm questioning the ED protocol. I know of its benifits to "well being".

ED is fine it's just dose dependent; why wouldn't you suggest it Swifto?

I inject 250 iu hCG EOD...better would be 100 iu ED...smaller regular doses providing for smoother more even and regular levels and better mimics the bodys own rythm (well, best as we can LOL!).

But you are so right about the variability in Physicians protocols.

I guess it comes down to experience and how men feel.

I can say this; I feel much better on EOD as opposed to when it was just twice a week before injection to be honest.

[Ibreakspawns]

I dont see how E2 dominance changes leydig cell refraction.

He's primary, so he's probably lacking LH receptors in his testes, they're shot or some other possibilites. I guess it comes down to why his testes are failing and primary hypogonadism subjects may not experience the refraction. But they also wont respond to HCG very well.

I still wouldnt ever suggest it ED. Neither would Dr. Scally and this is an example of how they often disagree on subjects.

I'm not saying HCG shouldn't be used, I'm questioning the ED protocol. I know of its benifits to "well being".

@SwiftoIf it helps any, my first endo said that my testicles were under-developed for my age.

@Bill Boy, to be honest, we drove 800 miles in one day, and never did stop. lol. We ate at Bob Evans in Indiana.

@Bass. Thanks sir! Keep us updated on how you're doing. Gdevine knows his shit

[Vettester]

Good move, it pays to see a doctor who will treat you properly. Hopefully this will inspire others that have GP's who are pushing their Anti D's and Viagara. It makes one really appreciate the qualifications and experience of a doctor like Crisler.

One question on your protocol ... You mentioned that you were diagnosed as primary. How much benefit does Dr. Crisler foresee you getting from adding HCG, being that your condition is primary and not secondary? There can be some added benefits with taking HCG, but most guys are primarily taking it for its ability to stimulate some natural production.

[Black]

One question on your protocol ... You mentioned that you were diagnosed as primary. How much benefit does Dr. Crisler foresee you getting from adding HCG, being that your condition is primary and not secondary? There can be some added benefits with taking HCG, but most guys are primarily taking it for its ability to stimulate some natural production.

I'm interested in his take on this as well. Seems like it would be purely cosmetic or maybe a fertility issue?

[Ibreakspawns]

L

I'm interested in his take on this as well. Seems like it would be purely cosmetic or maybe a fertility issue?

Edited for rules

[kelkel]

Awesome news! Gd educates people here daily. Great work!

[ConArmas]

Congrats Ibreakspawns and thanks for posting your progress. Let us know how things go for you.

[kelkel]

Your talking regeneration Swifto?

[bass]

congratulations Ibreakspawns! glad you made the move to visit Dr. Crisler. i know how you feel about SQ, i took GDevine's advice and switch to SQ, i am not looking back. thanks GD for all you do here!

[Bill_boy2005]

Good thread, and glad to hear of another Crisler patient that is happy. I am here in Lansing now for my appt. tomorrow.

On a much more important note Ibreakprawns, wheres a good place to eat here?

[Lemonada8]

Ive never heard of the SubQ test is aromatized at a lower rate, i would actually think the oppsite due to thats where alot of adipose tissue is and that is a large source of aromatization. Very interesting.

Can someone link some info that backs up that claim?

I am also a fan of more frequent injections, according to the book i have on testosterone, the hydrolysis of the ester chain is very quick but the release of the testosterone injection depot is the main limiting factor. (Testosterone:action, deficiency, substuition. AMAZING book btw, Nieschlag really knows his stuff)
"the rate of hydrolysis again dependson the structure of the acid chain but this process is much faster than release from the injection depot"

I agree with swifto on the ED/EOD HCG usage, there are 2 LH spikes with the 2nd being just as large or larger than the first. by going ED/EOD with it, you * theoretically* would have a lower 2nd spike b/c the next admin of Hcg wouldnt allow it.
perhaps, by going ED/EOD with the HCG, the LH receptors on the testes to increase (assuming that they didnt properly develop b/c its primary), but this is a double edged sword b/c after long duration those receptors start to not be activated but following the diminished androgen production the natural feedback kicks in and more androgen is produced. *that would support the E3D use of HCG in normal males.

To the OP:
have you always had these issues? did you ever do a cycle? where increased androgens would lead to premature 'aging' of the leydig cells? Did you try gettin the injections closer together than 2 weeks, like E10days? Did you have your thyroid checked? did you get blood work values done of the common/useful things (Test, free test, SHBG, LH, FSH, TSH). Do you have testicular atrophy? how was your 'puberty'.. Normal, late, early?

[Ibreakspawns]

Ive never heard of the SubQ test is aromatized at a lower rate, i would actually think the oppsite due to thats where alot of adipose tissue is and that is a large source of aromatization. Very interesting.

Can someone link some info that backs up that claim?

I am also a fan of more frequent injections, according to the book i have on testosterone, the hydrolysis of the ester chain is very quick but the release of the testosterone injection depot is the main limiting factor. (Testosterone:action, deficiency, substuition. AMAZING book btw, Nieschlag really knows his stuff)
"the rate of hydrolysis again dependson the structure of the acid chain but this process is much faster than release from the injection depot"

I agree with swifto on the ED/EOD HCG usage, there are 2 LH spikes with the 2nd being just as large or larger than the first. by going ED/EOD with it, you * theoretically* would have a lower 2nd spike b/c the next admin of Hcg wouldnt allow it.
perhaps, by going ED/EOD with the HCG, the LH receptors on the testes to increase (assuming that they didnt properly develop b/c its primary), but this is a double edged sword b/c after long duration those receptors start to not be activated but following the diminished androgen production the natural feedback kicks in and more androgen is produced. *that would support the E3D use of HCG in normal males.

To the OP:
have you always had these issues? did you ever do a cycle? where increased androgens would lead to premature 'aging' of the leydig cells? Did you try gettin the injections closer together than 2 weeks, like E10days? Did you have your thyroid checked? did you get blood work values done of the common/useful things (Test, free test, SHBG, LH, FSH, TSH). Do you have testicular atrophy? how was your 'puberty'.. Normal, late, early?

I will answer all of these when I get home! Which is in about two hours. But, to be brief, puberty was late, I take Synthroid, never cycled.

[Ibreakspawns]

Edited

[Ibreakspawns]

I still have a lot to learn. You guys make my head hurt! Lol

[Lemonada8]

Gotcha on the estrogen, Thats why ur a MOD keeping in mind that others educate themselves by our discussions :P

This study explains pretty good, that thyroid hormones are important in testicular function/formation.
"The Role of Thyroid Hormone in Testicular Development and Function"
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2799043/

Moreover, T3 has been shown to induce Leydig cell differentiation in testes of adult rats previously treated with ethane-dimethane sulphonate (EDS), a toxin that selectively kills Leydig cells within 48 hr after administration (Ariyaratne et al., 2000b). These results indicate that thyroid hormone is crucial for triggering the onset of mesenchymal cell differentiation into a steroidogenic progenitor Leydig cell in prepubertal and adult rat testis. Indeed, the onset of the adult Leydig cell differentiation in the rat and mouse testes appears to be independent of LH (Siril Ariyaratne et al., 2000, Baker et al., 2003). Nevertheless, LH is essential for the steps beyond the initial differentiation stage for further development and maturation of adult Leydig cells (Mendis-Handagama & Ariyaratne, 2001).

[Swifto]

Gotcha on the estrogen, Thats why ur a MOD keeping in mind that others educate themselves by our discussions :P

This study explains pretty good, that thyroid hormones are important in testicular function/formation.
"The Role of Thyroid Hormone in Testicular Development and Function"
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2799043/

Nice find, also full paper.

[Swifto]

Gotcha on the estrogen, Thats why ur a MOD keeping in mind that others educate themselves by our discussions :P

This study explains pretty good, that thyroid hormones are important in testicular function/formation.
"The Role of Thyroid Hormone in Testicular Development and Function"
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2799043/

Nice find, also full paper.

[SlimmerMe]

This thread is one of the best ever. Keep up the great education! Learning learning learning.....

[SEOINAGE]

If you choose to inject SQ, do you need to start with AI or even have it on hand in case you feel sides? Or is it safe to start SQ even if you think you are prone to conversion without the ai? i don't see him mentioning ai in his protocol.

[Ibreakspawns]

If you choose to inject SQ, do you need to start with AI or even have it on hand in case you feel sides? Or is it safe to start SQ even if you think you are prone to conversion without the ai? i don't see him mentioning ai in his protocol.

At edited

[Swifto]

At first, he was talking about doing IM multiple times a week. Then, he was like wait "You're 23, that's a lot of shots for the rest of your life, IM is too invasive" Thus, reasoning for SQ. He said "We want to see if we can do it without an estrogen inhibitor, the less, the better"

So he didn't specifically mentaion "E2 conversion is lower SQ"?

[Ibreakspawns]

Edited