Nice study showing that we are probably overdosing our HCG

[ecdysone]

Here is well designed, recent study that shows 125IU of HCG EOD is more than enough to maintain inter-testicular test and serum test levels:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20484472

So on a weekly basis that would translate to 440IU/week which is probably half of what most guys use. There might be some need to use slightly higher doses if you inject only 2 x week, but 500 IU/week should be more than enough.

[DeadlyD]

Interesting

[SEOINAGE]

good to hear, was wondering if the 250 x 2 a week would be enough. Hoping the doc calls this one in soon for me, but that is the protocol she mentioned yesterday.

[steroid.com 1]

This is very interesting. I have often wondered about the dosing protocols with hCG and what's the minimum amount required.

125iu EOD...might give it a try instead of 250iu EOD.

[HRTstudent]

Dr Crisler's "typical" protocol is 250-500IU 2 days a week, before the shot.

So... if you were on the 250 dose then that's pretty much in line with 437iu...

Thank yo for posting this I look forward to readng the full FREE text!

[Leroy Jenkins]

My doc has me on 500iu a week. Divided into 2 shots. The boys are back to normal. My prior doc would not prescribe HCG.

[GotNoBlueMilk]

My concern with this study is that they used normal men, not men with low T. Then they "induced experimental gonadotropin deficiency in 37 normal men with the GnRH antagonist." This would mean that they used men with good response to LH and not men who had demonstrated a low LH response. So for many men on HRT, this experiment doesn't apply. If however you reason for low T is not a low LH response, this experiment would apply to you.

[bass]

one way to find out is to try it! i am with GD, I'll try 125 eod and see how it goes. BTW, if you decide to cut your dose to 125 eod make sure you get the 5000iu vials, because at this dose 5000iu will last you 80 days, which is border line of losing its potency.

[Vettester]

I'll try it too ... If my left nut protests I'll know it didn't work. No protests, no problems.

[ecdysone]

My concern with this study is that they used normal men, not men with low T. Then they "induced experimental gonadotropin deficiency in 37 normal men with the GnRH antagonist." This would mean that they used men with good response to LH and not men who had demonstrated a low LH response. So for many men on HRT, this experiment doesn't apply. If however you reason for low T is not a low LH response, this experiment would apply to you.

That's probably true. Guys with true primary hypogonadism (the "low LH response" I think you are referring to) often show some response to supplemental HCG, but usually a lot less than those with secondary, or mixed primary/secondary.

[jamotech]

Ive been at 250iu 2x a week and the boys seem just the same as when I did more. I have to say I was very interested in Swiftos mention of the 48 hour spike with HCG, injecting every 3.5 days seems to take advantage of that spike.

[ecdysone]

I'll try it too ... If my left nut protests I'll know it didn't work. No protests, no problems.

I've been involved with the kind of study referenced above - and I can tell you they easily cost $100K (often, much more) - if they could've just rented out Vette's "nut-o-meter" for a couple weeks it would have saved them mucho bucks.

[Vettester]

I've been involved with the kind of study referenced above - and I can tell you they easily cost $100K (often, much more) - if they could've just rented out Vette's "nut-o-meter" for a couple weeks it would have saved them mucho bucks.

Exactly, I'd even do it for half the price, in half the time!

On a serious note, I'd really like to know why it's so sensitive. It's great to know that I am responsive in a positive way to the LH analogue, but it's no fun when the LH runs dry.

[JD250]

GNBM makes some good points, I'm gonna wait and see how you guys respond.

[steroid.com 1]

When you consider how very little the pituitary secrets LH on a daily basis (and not considering half life as well!) versus the amount of the hCG analog we take the ratio is way off.

I produce a good deal of natural test due to my hCG protocol of 250iu EOD. If I can reduce it to 125iu EOD and feel no difference in any way I will stick to it.

Less of the drug and better on the wallet...I like both.

As usual, I like bass (and others) will report on how we feel, sense of well being, sex drive, teste size...all the things we would monitor under this type of subjective test.

I also passed this along to my Doc; I will let you guys know what he thinks as well.

Good thread...I love these types...good for all of us!

[GotNoBlueMilk]

You should not infer that I'm not going to try this, because I am.

I do my Test Cyp 3 times a week, subq. I will do 125 IU of HCG 3 times a week on the alternate days and see how that goes.

So Mon, Wed, Fri 30 mg of Test subq
On Tues, Thur, Sat 125 IU of HCG
On Sunday I will do the 7th day thing and rest.

The EOD is probably better, but I just get messed up on the EOD thing. Sometimes I forget what I did yesterday, and I have never been good at keeping a log of any kind.

I'm with Vet on the nut-meter thing. If my boys shrink too much I start getting pain. I think mostly it's because they get banged around and pinched up into the pubic bone. I have also noticed that when I let them shrink for a while due to not doing my protocol, then start the HCG again, they get sore from growing. Turns out there is a semi-flexible sheath on the boys that when it shrinks, it does'nt expand as fast as the boys can grow when they grow again. This causes me some discomfort.

[JD250]

Oh I'm all for it too, I like the idea of spending half as much and if the results are there then count me in, but I'm still gonna let you guys be the guinea pigs on this one.

GNBM......I know what you mean with the EOD thing, the math doesn't work well with a seven day week. I put all my protocol times into a calendar app on my phone, problem solved, just glance at my calendar for the day, it never forgets what day it is. I even enter the dosage amounts.

I'll be watching this thread and I expect some hardcore emperical evidence including testicle measurements before and after. Hopefully you guys all have a good set of calipers.

[GotNoBlueMilk]

Hmmm, put it in my iPhone. I am a techno geek and my iPhone is always on. That would work for me. Even would give me an audible reminder. Thanks for pointing out the obvious solution JD. Funny how the simple solutions are so easily missed sometimes.

[JD250]

UGGGHHH!!!! WHAT A DISASTER!!!!

Alright, I've been doing this stuff for like a year and a half no problem, the needles, the math for mixing, getting the proper dosing, cutting pills, handeling vials of liquid injectables.....never an issue....I just went in the kitchen and got out my HCG to take my shot, I noted that it was getting a little low and I would need to mix another vial in a week or two then I promptly brushed the vial off the counter and onto the tile floor leaving a small yet quite expensive wet spot on the floor....CRAP!!! So I guess I'll be mixing a new one sooner than I thought so I grumpily grab another box, take out the vial and the amp, clean the top of the vial, get a needle ready to suck the water out of the ampule, I wrap the ampule in a piece of cardboard from the package and snap the top like I've done many times before....CRUNCH!!!! As the water dripped between my fingers and onto the same spot on the floor that I had just mopped with my HCG I thought to myself, "maybe I should just skip todays shot and do it tomorrow or the day after"

That would be too easy so I remember the half empty 10ml bottle of bacto water in the fridge left over from previous HCG adventures, I grab it and clean everything and prepare for mixing once again. Now I've always found it somewhat easy to figure the math on this IU stuff and I have a personal preference of using 1/10th of a ml for an HCG injection so I add 4ml to my 5000 IU vial of HCG.......CRAP!!!!! That aint right, I wonder where I got the weird subliminal idea to make it 125 IU per 1/10th ml injection instead of my normal 250..... Thanks Ecdysone!!!

It would be easy enough to use .20 on the syringe but since you've already got me half brainwashed I'm gonna go ahead and try it for a while even though I said I wasn't gonna do it. Let it be known that if my balls shrivel up and fall off I'm holding Ecdysone personally responsible.

I guess I should have just let it go and try again tomorrow huh? I do however like the idea of using half as much, it'll help make up for the one I used to clean the kitchen floor.

[steroid.com 1]

Bummer on the hCG JD; shit aint cheap!

You will be fine on 125iu per week. If you were to see any neg sides it's going to take some time as you will still be activating the receptors on the leydig cells even on 125iu so the decline, if any, will be very very slow.

I just mixed a new batch of 5000iu hCG tonight as well and only pulled back to the 10 mark on my pin...125iu starting tomorrow morning.

Welcome to the club JD