Cutting diet, on TRT THATS IT, please critique

[Savage12]

Hey guys, been cutting a while and ran into a few bumps in the road. I decrease cals way to quick stalled and had no where to go so I upped them hoping to see resumed fat loss.

Stats: 5'7" 155lbs 12% BF. Alot of of you will bitch telling me to bulk because im only 155lbs. I've never had abs guys and im trying to get to 6-7% bf before I bulk just so I know how to and so I have better nutrient repartitioning when it comes time to add size, so please work with me.

I have two proposed diets I want to run (> = pre/post w.o)

>9am: 1 cup oats, 1.5 cup egg whites = 480 cals, 46g protein, 54g carb, 6g fat

>12pm: 1/2 cup brown rice, 2 scoop whey = 540 cals, 54g protein, 62g carbs

2pm: 6oz chicken breast, 1 tbsp EVOO = 300 cals, 39g protein, 15g fat

4pm: 6oz ground turkey, 1tbsp EVOO = 300 cals, 39g protein, 15g fat

6pm: 6oz tilapia, tbsp EVOO = 300 cals, 39g protein, 15g fat

8pm: 6oz chicken breast, 1 tbsp EVOO = 300 cals, 39g protein, 15g fat

10pm: 5oz tuna = 150 cals, 39g protein

Cals = 2370, 295g protein, 116g carbs, ~65g fat


I hate cutting carbs after pwo, i feel hungry and irritable as hell and I look flat and grose towards the end of the night. I'd prefer the below diet....


>9am: 1 cup oats, 1.5 cup egg whites = 480 cals, 46g protein, 54g carbs

>12pm: 1/2 cup brown rice, 2 scoop whey = 540 cals, 54g protein, 62g carbs

2pm: 5oz chicken, 1/4 cup brown rice = 300 cals, 32g protein, 31g carbs

4pm: 5oz tuna, 1/4 cup brown rice = 300 cals, 32g proten, 31g carbs

6pm: 5oz ground turkey, 1/4 cup brown rice = 300 cals, 32g protein, 31g carbs

8pm: 5oz chicken, 1/4 cup brown rice = 300 cals, 32g protein, 31g carbs

10pm: 5oz tilapia = 150 cals, 32g protein

Cals= 2370 cals, 260g protein, 240g carbs


Trying to get as lean as possible, without losing muscle. I am on TRT even though im 20 (long story) but thats the only anabolic help I have

[WSC786]

Hey man,

There are a couple of things we should know. Exactly where is ur workout in reference to ur meals? I don't see anything marked pre and post workout meal.
Also ur on trt, that's fine but how much? I would assume 200mg a week, is that correct.
What is EVOO?? Obviously gonna say some kind of healthy fat but I've never heard of it before.

[Savage12]

Re read my first post...I clearly outline pre and post workout. Evoo is extra virgin olive oil lol hah

[WSC786]

Re read my first post...I clearly outline pre and post workout. Evoo is extra virgin olive oil lol hah

Ok here we go. My bad on the pre and post workout thing....guess I missed your greater then and equals to signs. As for the extra virgin olive oil question I like how you find it funny and added the LOL and haha that I didn't caught onto the abbreviation.
Heres a tip ignorant remarks like that is most likely why you haven't gotten any responses to your questions. I was actually going to help you out but now I have no interest. Ive gotten my nutrition figured out and all I can say to you is good luck with yours..as of now you need it.

Have a good day.

[Savage12]

Hey man, grow up, it was justa little laugh. No harm done, and you since you neglected to thoroughly read my post which clearly outlines what you said you couldn't find, I threw in a "lol hah." Sorry if that damages your ego, I apologize.

Have a good day as well!

[Back In Black]

What is your current diet macro's?

What results have you got over the past 4 weeks?

Can you post a pic to ascertain bf?

Where in your day does your workout fall?

How much cardio are you doing?

[WSC786]

What is your current diet macro's?

What results have you got over the past 4 weeks?

Can you post a pic to ascertain bf?

Where in your day does your workout fall?

How much cardio are you doing?

SteM watch out man for god sakes don't ask where his workout falls. Apparently he clearly stated it in his original post. But as of now the 2 people that responded to his post couldn't tell where it was...but it must be us.

[stevet68]

Savage, I am a new member so I dont have much advice for you, I can tell you that I read your post and didnt see the pre/post workout either and I had no idea what EVOO was

[Savage12]

First post:

I have two proposed diets I want to run (> = pre/post w.o)

>9am: 1 cup oats, 1.5 cup egg whites = 480 cals, 46g protein , 54g carb, 6g fat

>12pm: 1/2 cup brown rice, 2 scoop whey = 540 cals, 54g protein , 62g carbs

2pm: 6oz chicken breast, 1 tbsp EVOO = 300 cals, 39g protein , 15g fat

4pm: 6oz ground turkey, 1tbsp EVOO = 300 cals, 39g protein , 15g fat

6pm: 6oz tilapia, tbsp EVOO = 300 cals, 39g protein , 15g fat

8pm: 6oz chicken breast, 1 tbsp EVOO = 300 cals, 39g protein , 15g fat

10pm: 5oz tuna = 150 cals, 39g protein

Cals = 2370, 295g protein , 116g carbs, ~65g fat



EVOO STANDS FOR EXTRA VIRGIN OLIVE OIL

PLEASE READ THE ABOVE SO THERE IS NO MORE CONFUSION. PRE/POSTW.O HIGHLIGTHED IN BOLD.

RELAX WSC, YOU'RE ACTING CHILDISH

[Savage12]

What is your current diet macro's?

What results have you got over the past 4 weeks? dropped from 15%-10-11

Can you post a pic to ascertain bf? let me take one, no problem

Where in your day does your workout fall? Right after my first meal (pre w.o) 12PM

How much cardio are you doing?

30 min 3x/week

[WSC786]

Ok man here we go. Tired of watching you struggle.

Your first diet is of off in total calories by 150. Ur macros don't quite add up. Simlpy check. Doesn't seem like a lot of calories but everything should be accounted for.

Your second diet had no Fats listed which is impossible and wouldn't be good even if it was possible. Healthy fats very important. Also the total calories are off on this by 370. Which is a lot and should be taken into account. I would think a lot of those calories are from the fats that you don't have in here....this should be fixed.

Looking at your height and weight like you said everyone would recommend you bulk, myself included...your pretty light. But if u wanna cut. Depending on what your exercise level is and how many times per week u workout your TDEE is about 2800. So right away ur calories have to be cut back more then you have them right now.

Of course you like the second diet more. It has twice the carbs which explains why you don't feel irritable and look flat by the end of the day.

How much did you have ur calories cut back to over the last few weeks? U said u cut back to much to quick...would be good to know where your cals were at during this stage.

Either way cardio for 30mins 3x/ week isn't enough for cutting. When were you doing this cardio?? What type of cario were you doing?? fasted in morning, HIIT post w/o...etc???

You still never answered the question about how much TRT you are on? This is important.

Have you been on TRT the entire time you have been dieting?? If so im suprised your feeling flat during workouts or later in day...

The advantage is the foods you are eating are the right types of food. I don't really see anything that is bad or cant' be eaten while cutting. It now will come down to the pla***ent of your carbs and cutting ur total cals back a bit.

[Savage12]

Ok man here we go. Tired of watching you struggle.

Your first diet is of off in total calories by 150. Ur macros don't quite add up. Simlpy check. Doesn't seem like a lot of calories but everything should be accounted for.

Your second diet had no Fats listed which is impossible and wouldn't be good even if it was possible. Healthy fats very important. Also the total calories are off on this by 370. Which is a lot and should be taken into account. I would think a lot of those calories are from the fats that you don't have in here....this should be fixed.

Looking at your height and weight like you said everyone would recommend you bulk, myself included...your pretty light. But if u wanna cut. Depending on what your exercise level is and how many times per week u workout your TDEE is about 2800. So right away ur calories have to be cut back more then you have them right now.

Of course you like the second diet more. It has twice the carbs which explains why you don't feel irritable and look flat by the end of the day.

How much did you have ur calories cut back to over the last few weeks? U said u cut back to much to quick...would be good to know where your cals were at during this stage.

Either way cardio for 30mins 3x/ week isn't enough for cutting. When were you doing this cardio?? What type of cario were you doing?? fasted in morning, HIIT post w/o...etc???

You still never answered the question about how much TRT you are on? This is important.

Have you been on TRT the entire time you have been dieting?? If so im suprised your feeling flat during workouts or later in day...

The advantage is the foods you are eating are the right types of food. I don't really see anything that is bad or cant' be eaten while cutting. It now will come down to the pla***ent of your carbs and cutting ur total cals back a bit.

Thanks for thr advice, glad to see we can move past that. Im on trt at 200mg/wk. As for the macros not adding up, when I look at percentages, they add up differently than total calories I don't know why. All the cals listed, are those directly off of the food labels of the items I eat.

As for cardio, it's low intensity, not on an empty stomach but a few hours after I workout. I do need to up it to 45min 5x a week.

I re-did my diet and changed to 6 meals (fits schedule better) but the macros % total with math is less than the total calories I add up by itself, im confused. Im accounting for all macros too.

9am: 3/4 cup oatmeal, 2 scoop whey

12pm: 1/2 cup brown rice, 2 scoop whey

2pm: 1/2 cup brown rice, 7oz chicken

4pm: 7oz chicken

7pm: 7oz ground turkey (99/1)

10pm: 7oz Tuna, 1tbsp EVOO (extra virgin olive oil)

Cals = 2265 cals, 299g protein, 164g carbs, 35g fat (when adding macros = 2167) I even rounded up

But the macros aren't adding up

[--->>405<<---]

At 155 @12%bf i get ur tdee @2650cals...

Based on that IMO 2265cals for cutting is too high for u.. I was eating 2200at 185lbs 10%bf

Id suggest closer to 1800.. At 12% u could bulk or cut.. Going down to 8-10% would be fine IMO bit ur def gonna wanna bulk soon afterwards.. Im only 2" taller than u and carry 167lbs LBM.. Rite now ur only carrying 136lbs LBM

[WSC786]

Ok. Looking at ur TDEE being around 2800. I like to subtract about 10% from that number and then minus 500cals. So 2800-280-500 = 2020....so 2000 calories per day would be what I would try and hit.

The advantage for you is that ur on TRT even at 200mgs/week you have the advantage of not really losing any muscle mass or major strength because of what ur on....so no worrys there in terms of keeping the calories low.

I would definitely up the cardio. Im a big fan of fasted cardio in the morning. A lot of other people like the HIIT style of cardio post workout. Its really a personal choice and a function of time on ur part. Either way if u go fasted cardio in AM I would say 45-60min 5x per week. If HIIT style post workout 20-30mins 5x per week as well.

As for diet I think it would be fine to knock the protein intake back to 250g per day. That would still be enough for someone ur size. If ur still taking in 164g of carbs that brown rice listed must be dry before cooking is that right???

As for 9am meal (pre-wo) I would take out the 2 scoops of whey and put in a cup of egg whites instead or 3/4 of a cup of egg whites and 1 whole egg.

12pm meal (post wo) is fine if you like the combination of whey protein and brown rice. Also concerned about the portion size of the brown rice. I think 30-40g would be enough here. I like to have my post workout shake with blended oats into it. Pretty easy to drink and doesn't taste bad.

2pm meal (post w/o meal) looks fine I lke the quality carb source with the lean protein. Only issue is the amount of brown rice. I would have this carb meal around 30-40 grams of carbs tops.

All the rest of ur meals really don't need carbs IMO. Which is pretty much what you have done. I would feel free to though in a salad with some of those meals or serving of veggies. Broccolli is pretty much a free food. Not really any amount of calories in it worth worrying about. The bonus is the salads and veggies will make you feel full and stop the carvings.

Size that up. Let me know about the brown rice question. Other then that it looks like its shaping up.

[Savage12]

At 155 @12%bf i get ur tdee @2650cals...

Based on that IMO 2265cals for cutting is too high for u.. I was eating 2200at 185lbs 10%bf

Id suggest closer to 1800.. At 12% u could bulk or cut.. Going down to 8-10% would be fine IMO bit ur def gonna wanna bulk soon afterwards.. Im only 2" taller than u and carry 167lbs LBM.. Rite now ur only carrying 136lbs LBM

As always, great post 405. I thought something was off when I stopped losing weight. I know I need to bulk too, trust me guys, but i really want to hit single digits and be able to hold it a few months during the summer (female reasons cum on lol) but as soon as sept-oct gets here, im bulking big time.

How does this look?

Alright after more revisions from your insights guys:

9am: 3/4 cup oatmeal, 2 scoop whey

12pm: 1/2 cup brown rice, 2 scoop whey

2pm: 1/4 cup brown rice, 6oz chicken

4pm: 6oz chicken

7pm: 6oz ground turkey (99/1)

10pm: 6oz Tuna, 1tbsp EVOO (extra virgin olive oil)

Cals: 1891 264G PROTEIN, 130G CARBS, 35G FAT

[WSC786]

At 155 @12%bf i get ur tdee @2650cals...I gave him little bit more but obviously only guessing exercise level

Based on that IMO 2265cals for cutting is too high for u.. I was eating 2200at 185lbs 10%bf

Id suggest closer to 1800.. At 12% u could bulk or cut.. Going down to 8-10% would be fine IMO bit ur def gonna wanna bulk soon afterwards.. Im only 2" taller than u and carry 167lbs LBM.. Rite now ur only carrying 136lbs LBM

Hey Savage12 this guy knows his shit so listen when he tells you something...thanks for chiming in 405.

[Savage12]

Agreed, he does for sure. You guys have both helped alot.

[--->>405<<---]

Imo a good cutting split:
60/20/20
1800cals
270g pro
90g carbs
40g fat

Refeed every 14days: 40/45/15 @2500cals
250g pro
280g carbs
42g fat

Id try to get in 4days cardio per week.. Also keeping carbs @20% total cals or less makes it easier to mobilize fat into the blood.. If ur not doing fasted cardio id do either pwo cardio or try to put 4hrs between ur last meal and ur cardio..

5min warmup
10min hiit
5min complete rest
20-40min moderate

Is a good session once or twice per week

[Savage12]

9am: 1/2 cup oatmeal, 2 scoop whey

12pm: 1/4 cup brown rice, 2 scoop whey

2pm: 1/4 cup brown rice, 6oz chicken

4pm: 6oz chicken

7pm: 6oz chicken, tbsp EVOO

10pm: 6oz chicken, tbsp EVOO

How does it look? Looking at 1890 cals, 267g protein, 91g carbs, 45g fat

This just seems soo low on carbs, are you sure muscle loss will be minimal?

[--->>405<<---]

9am: 1/2 cup oatmeal, 2 scoop whey

12pm: 1/4 cup brown rice, 2 scoop whey

2pm: 1/4 cup brown rice, 6oz chicken

4pm: 6oz chicken

7pm: 6oz chicken, tbsp EVOO

10pm: 6oz chicken, tbsp EVOO

How does it look? Looking at 1890 cals, 267g protein, 91g carbs, 45g fat

This just seems soo low on carbs, are you sure muscle loss will be minimal?

i, too, am on trt at 160mg per week and cut from 213lbs @22%bf down to 185lbs @10%bf at 2150cals and 100g carbs..and lost 0 LBM.. thats not to say that u wont cuz were all difft but with 270g protein ur @2g pro per lb LBM which is designed to preserve muscle.. plus u have the test.. my guess is ur free test levels are well above "normal".. considering mine (at 160mg per week) are above 30 on a range of @7.3 - 25.6 (off the top of my head)

how often do u inject?

Also wats the rest of ur protocol?

[--->>405<<---]

cycling ur carbs is also a good approach and maybe what u need.. have u considered it? assuming ur bf% is correct..

[Savage12]

My protocol right now is 200mg injected 1x/week, I believe my levels are above 30 as well, i'll have to take a look at the blood work.

I have thought about cycling my carbs, im just not sure about the amount of carbs in the rotation. Ronnie roland's slingshot carb cycling recommends not under 150g carbs on low days, and 300 on high days. This seems wayyyy too high for someone at my bodyweight and bf%. My goal is to hit 6% bf and ill take whatever approach is more likely to get me there.

[--->>405<<---]

When i started my carb cycle i was about 10% according to cAlipers and have managed to get to 7.8%.. thats as low as ive gotten but have been on a 8month cut and my drive has decreased slightly cuz im tired and think my body needs a break..

I got stuck @10% with strait low carb and cycling them was the change i needed.. 6% is ambitious and depending on ur specific body could be hard to achieve.. Not impossible just hard u could try the low carb i suggested and see how it goes first before complicating things with a carb cycle..

I am a big fan of the carb cycle after having done it and it is the only way i will go from here on out for cutting..

My "low" days were 50g (broccoli only), moderate days 150g, high day 300g..

Basically:
Low
Low
Low
High
Mod
Mod
Mod

I also did ud2.0 to get from 9% to 7.8% which is also a carb cycle.. Its more complicated and on refeed day (30hrs) i ate 1300g carbs..

300g seemed a lot to me before i tried this.. Now 300g doesnt seem that much..

I suggest u researching the carb cycle for urself..

[--->>405<<---]

Are u on ai or hcg?

Have u considered 100mg every 3.5days?

[Savage12]

When i started my carb cycle i was about 10% according to cAlipers and have managed to get to 7.8%.. thats as low as ive gotten but have been on a 8month cut and my drive has decreased slightly cuz im tired and think my body needs a break..

I got stuck @10% with strait low carb and cycling them was the change i needed.. 6% is ambitious and depending on ur specific body could be hard to achieve.. Not impossible just hard u could try the low carb i suggested and see how it goes first before complicating things with a carb cycle..

I am a big fan of the carb cycle after having done it and it is the only way i will go from here on out for cutting..

My "low" days were 50g (broccoli only), moderate days 150g, high day 300g..

Basically:
Low
Low
Low
High
Mod
Mod
Mod

I also did ud2.0 to get from 9% to 7.8% which is also a carb cycle.. Its more complicated and on refeed day (30hrs) i ate 1300g carbs..

300g seemed a lot to me before i tried this.. Now 300g doesnt seem that much..

I suggest u researching the carb cycle for urself..

Awesome info....I have done quite a bit of reading on carb cycling, there's just so much info out there regarding amounts of carbs which could potentially delay my goal. Im not if low carb or cycling carbs is best at this point.

And no Im not any any ancillaries as of now.

[--->>405<<---]

Im a fan of lyle macdonald (ultimate diet 2.0) whos philosophy is: always do whats simplest until it stops working.. For u it would be 1. low carb.. Then 2. carb cycle..

[Savage12]

Im a fan of lyle macdonald (ultimate diet 2.0) whos philosophy is: always do whats simplest until it stops working.. For u it would be 1. low carb.. Then 2. carb cycle..

I think I agree 405....plus I did some major cheating this weekend (not sure where the munchies came from) but it hit me hard. Anyways, i'll stick with your low carb approach, not to mention was hitting close to 2300 cals/ed anyways instead of 1800 so I was wayyy off my cals in order to see drops in bf.

[Back In Black]

Sav, I know you PM'd me. Sorry. I think you are being looked after nicely!? Agree that cals are stat dependant and that under 2000cals would be fine for you to cut!

[Savage12]

Sav, I know you PM'd me. Sorry. I think you are being looked after nicely!? Agree that cals are stat dependant and that under 2000cals would be fine for you to cut!

No problem man! Life gets busy sometimes bro. Appreciate in the input on the cals though, now I know for sure I was over on cals to be losing bf.

[--->>405<<---]

No problem man! Life gets busy sometimes bro. Appreciate in the input on the cals though, now I know for sure I was over on cals to be losing bf.

Way to make me feel good! just kidding

[Savage12]

[/B]

Way to make me feel good! just kidding

Hah both of you guys confirming it makes me feel better. You were the only two that advocated that I was too high in cals on my fist thread instead of telling me I was under eating like everyone else.

[Savage12]

A little update, guys im upping my carbs back up...i look sooo damn flat and shitty without carbs and feel like absolute crap by around 5pm when i start work which makes me irritable and sluggish to say the least. Not to mention a close friend of mine is an NPC level competitor here in Cali (just took second in LA) and he said my carbs are wayyyy too low and its no wonder im flat and not having great training sessions. I didn't even mention my caloric intake, but 1800 feels so low for me. 2250 is still a 500 cal deficit which seems more sustainable, but i dont mind keeping it there as long as I can up my carbs which means ill need to decrease protein.

[Back In Black]

If you are relying on the Katch McArdle formula to be exact, then don't. I know for me, I need to reduce it by about 10%. Partly it depends how correct you are in your activity levels. And we all respond differently to low carbs. Personally if I was trying to lose fat that would be my focus not whether or not I looked flat. Carb timing on a low carb diet is, however, essentila for properly fuelled workouts.

By all means increase your cals again, you'll only know if you try it. Everybody is different and I highly encourage people to find out exactly what works for them once they have a baseline. to go from.

1800 feels low probably because you aren't used to it. On a calorie deficit it is supposed to feel low and you will be hungry. If I dropped to 2200 from my maintenance of 2700 it would feel too low for me but I know it would be right for fat loss.

Keep us updated.

[--->>405<<---]

^^ agree with stem.. also just because u look flat and crappy due to low carbs u should remember thats only temporary.. everyone looks flat with low carbs.. but its not how u look today that matters.. what matters is what u are going to look like in a month or 2!

everyone is difft.. ive gone 4 days with only 50g carbs coming strictly from broccoli.. and managed to do two 1.5hr depletion workouts on this diet of 1400cals.. didnt lose any muscle.. when running strait low carb u want to focus ur carbs pre and post workout only..

good luck!