Bass's new blood work based on Test/hCG EOD no AI.

[bass]

been on 105 mgs per week, 30 eod no AI, also take hCG eod day in between test injections. very happy about the results with the exception of E2! which i will take care of. been feeling really good, no symptoms of high E2 except for minor bloating and slow fat burning. i like to see it at around 35-40. i am shocked how high my test levels are based on this little dose, which i will adjust as well to make my free T within range. the best news yet is my TSH, never seen them that low, thanks to GDevine, Brohim and others who recommend to use iodine, been on iodine only a month or so! here it is,

CBC With Differential/Platelet
WBC 4.6 x10E3/uL 4.0 − 10.5 01
RBC 5.33 x10E6/uL 4.10 − 5.60 01
Hemoglobin 15.5 g/dL 12.5 − 17.0 01
Hematocrit 46.7 % 36.0 − 50.0 01
MCV 88 fL 80 − 98 01
MCH 29.1 pg 27.0 − 34.0 01
MCHC 33.2 g/dL 32.0 − 36.0 01
RDW 14.2 % 11.7 − 15.0 01
Platelets 160 x10E3/uL 140 − 415 01
Neutrophils 64 % 40 − 74 01
Lymphs 29 % 14 − 46 01
Monocytes 6 % 4 − 13 01
Eos 1 % 0 − 7 01
Basos 0 % 0 − 3 01
Neutrophils (Absolute) 2.9 x10E3/uL 1.8 − 7.8 01
Lymphs (Absolute) 1.3 x10E3/uL 0.7 − 4.5 01
Monocytes(Absolute) 0.3 x10E3/uL 0.1 − 1.0 01
Eos (Absolute) 0.1 x10E3/uL 0.0 − 0.4 01
Baso (Absolute) 0.0 x10E3/uL 0.0 − 0.2 01
Immature Granulocytes 0 % 0 − 2 01
Immature Grans (Abs) 0.0 x10E3/uL 0.0 − 0.1 01
SPACE

Comp. Metabolic Panel (14)
Glucose, Serum 99 mg/dL 65 − 99 01
BUN 19 mg/dL 6 − 24 01

Creatinine, Serum 1.34 High mg/dL 0.76 − 1.27 01
eGFR If NonAfricn Am 60 mL/min/1.73 >59
eGFR If Africn Am 70 mL/min/1.73 >59
BUN/Creatinine Ratio 14 9 − 20
Sodium, Serum 139 mmol/L 134 − 144 01
Potassium, Serum 4.3 mmol/L 3.5 − 5.2 01
Chloride, Serum 101 mmol/L 97 − 108 01

TESTS RESULT FLAG UNITS REFERENCE INTERVAL LAB
Carbon Dioxide, Total 21 mmol/L 20 − 32 01
Calcium, Serum 9.5 mg/dL 8.7 − 10.2 01
Protein, Total, Serum 6.7 g/dL 6.0 − 8.5 01
Albumin, Serum 4.3 g/dL 3.5 − 5.5 01
Globulin, Total 2.4 g/dL 1.5 − 4.5
A/G Ratio 1.8 1.1 − 2.5
Bilirubin, Total 0.9 mg/dL 0.0 − 1.2 01
Alkaline Phosphatase, S 64 IU/L 25 − 150 01
AST (SGOT) 28 IU/L 0 − 40 01
ALT (SGPT) 17 IU/L 0 − 55 01
SPACE

Thyroid Panel With TSH
TSH 1.990 uIU/mL 0.450 − 4.500 01
Thyroxine (T4) 6.6 ug/dL 4.5 − 12.0 01
T3 Uptake 36 % 24 − 39 01
Free Thyroxine Index 2.4 1.2 − 4.9
SPACE

Testosterone,Free and Total
Testosterone, Serum 816 ng/dL 348 − 1197 01
Free Testosterone(Direct) 31.4 High pg/mL 7.2 − 24.0 02
SPACE

Estradiol 91.1 High pg/mL 7.6 − 42.6 01
Roche ECLIA methodology
SPACE

Prostate−Specific Ag, Serum
Prostate Specific Ag, Serum 0.8 ng/mL 0.0 − 4.0 01
Roche ECLIA methodology.

[JohnnyVegas]

I am bummed to see your E2 is so high. It seemed like one of the real benefits of SQ was the possibility of not needing an AI.

[steroid.com 1]

Other than elevated E2 you look good man!


Thyroid Panel With TSH
TSH 1.990 uIU/mL 0.450 − 4.500 01
Thyroxine (T4) 6.6 ug/dL 4.5 − 12.0 01
T3 Uptake 36 % 24 − 39 01
Free Thyroxine Index 2.4 1.2 − 4.9
Total TSH is now within the optimal range! T3 looks excellent! Thyroid is nice and healthy



Testosterone,Free and Total
Testosterone , Serum 816 ng/dL 348 − 1197 01
Free Testosterone(Direct) 31.4 High pg/mL 7.2 − 24.0 02
Free is elevated and not by much...I'd leave it alone in light of your Total Serum panel.

Estradiol 91.1 High pg/mL 7.6 − 42.6 01
Roche ECLIA methodology
You know what to do here!

Prostate−Specific Ag, Serum
Prostate Specific Ag, Serum 0.8 ng/mL 0.0 − 4.0 01
Roche ECLIA methodology.
Perfect!

Not too shabby for an ol'man

Nice B!

[bass]

thanks GD, you know how much i value your input. i think I'll start with 0.5 mgs AI per week split.

[bass]

I am bummed to see your E2 is so high. It seemed like one of the real benefits of SQ was the possibility of not needing an AI.

me too J. with test levels that high i don't see how conversion can be avoided.

[bass]

another thing i am happy about is my liver, even though been taking two baby aspirin ed!

[steroid.com 1]

These are two liver panels that you're interested in bass if taking baby aspirin or any other drug or alcohol for that matter.

AST (SGOT) 28 IU/L 0 − 40 01
ALT (SGPT) 17 IU/L 0 − 55 01

They don't really report so much as to the health of the liver as they do liver inflammation but your panels are ideal.

Essentially they are sensitive indicators of liver damage or injury from different types of diseases not just the liver.

For example, elevations of these enzymes can occur with muscle damage from lifting believe it or not.

[ecdysone]

Bass- how much HCG are you using each week?

Might think about dropping that a bit... as you know that can really elevate E2... but YMMV

[bass]

These are two liver panels that you're interested in bass if taking baby aspirin or any other drug or alcohol for that matter.

AST (SGOT) 28 IU/L 0 − 40 01
ALT (SGPT) 17 IU/L 0 − 55 01

They don't really report so much as to the health of the liver as they do liver inflammation but your panels are ideal.

Essentially they are sensitive indicators of liver damage or injury from different types of diseases not just the liver.

For example, elevations of these enzymes can occur with muscle damage from lifting believe it or not.

very true GD! but i also believe Anastrozole had something to do with elevating the enzymes in the past.

Bass- how much HCG are you using each week?

Might think about dropping that a bit... as you know that can really elevate E2... but YMMV

been on 250 iu eod which comes to 875 iu ew, not a bad idea to lower it, but lately my boys been little weak, but that could be because of high e2.

[jamotech]

I am bummed to see your E2 is so high. It seemed like one of the real benefits of SQ was the possibility of not needing an AI.

the frequent small doses should have helped also, I guess just another time to say "everyone's different"!

[jamotech]

Bass,
Ive backed of my hcg a bit, at 200 iu eod now. I also went to 250 iu eod because of slight shrinkage, and attributed my rise in e2 to the hcg increase. Boys dont see a difference between 200iu and 250iu, how much that makes a difference in my E2 I dont know, but I guess less medicine is always better.

Other than that great numbers, its making me a believer in the subq frequent low doses.

AI will probably raise your test numbers even more!

[GFA]

Are you still doing SC for injections? E2 seems really high but other numbers look great.

[kelkel]

Nice report other than the obvious Bass! I still may consider .25 x 2 AI per week and see where it gets you in a month. Re HCG a thought may be just 3 x per week, M-W-F to keep it simple, take weekends off, plus lowers the amount of injections slightly.

[Ratt]

Bass,
Your results minus the E2 levels look great. Very thorough panel, wish we all had doctors who are willing to go beyond the basics.
I know in another thread you mentioned the you have been experiencing more muscle soreness and thought that it could have been the low carb diet you're on or possibly E2 levels. I would be very interested to know if the soreness issue improves when you lower your E2 levels.
Keep us posted and congrats on your results

[zaggahamma]

holy e2 batman

but glad your feeling good

update with anything you notice after adding in the AI please

[keep fightin]

Bass, always great to review your panels and your experimentation with protocols, the eod T looks like a winner,now the dance begins with the HCG- adex equation, really good stuff thanks for the pioneering spirit!

[steroid.com 1]

Nice report other than the obvious Bass! I still may consider .25 x 2 AI per week and see where it gets you in a month. Re HCG a thought may be just 3 x per week, M-W-F to keep it simple, take weekends off, plus lowers the amount of injections slightly.

^^^Great recommendation kel...something to consider bass.

I made a small adjustment like this myself.

Went from two .5mg AI twice a week (24 hours after each 60mg T injection) to .25mg.

Went from 250iu hCG EOD to 250iu Monday - Wednesday - Friday.

No BW yet.

Subjectively, I feel great!

No neg sides of elevated E2.

Testes are just fine in size and function.

Tiny adjustment and BW will prove it out but having been in the game for a while I am willing to bet even better BW.

Think about it b, kel makes a good case!

[Vettester]

Bass, I DON'T think 0.5mg/wk on Arimidex will cut it ... Maybe might maintain it, but I doubt it would drop.

Take it you have some relatively low SHBG? Lots of free test ... IMO, you would be just fine if you cut your cypionate by 30%, keep you HCG around 250iu x 3/wk, and run a Arimidex protocol of .25mg/day x 5 (2 days off, then repeat). Run labs in 4 weeks and see where it sits. Continue Adex protocol til you get in your ideal range, then try to integrate a maintenance protocol of .25mg or .50mg split as you suggested. Just my .02 ...

** Edit ... bass, your SHBG score is 5.4 and free is sitting at 3.85%. Your bio- available score is sitting at 90.2%!!

Seems a lot will focus in on that total serum score and tell you that it's ideal. If we have a member post a serum score of 1,200, most would tell him to cut down. A good average amount of free testosterone for a lot of men is 2.5%. Bass, your testosterone is higher than the guy who has a 1,200 serum score at 2.5%. Use the low SHBG to your advantage and go with less compound. I'm in the same boat ... You can make a whole lot less go further than most guys, and finding your balance will be much easier, I assure you.

[steroid.com 1]

Sorry vette, and I do luv ya bro, but I disagree.

With the exception of E2 he's damn near dialed in; what you are proposing is throwing in a lot of new protocol variables that could disrupt the apple cart, make it harder to track what is causing what - and in my opinion don't think is needed at this point.

He just needs to add in a little AI to manage his conversion and just keep to what he's doing without adding in more variables that makes the equation harder to interrupt.

I agree with kel on the AI dosage; start out low and measure along the way..small steps from here and...he's almost there.

[Vettester]

Sorry vette, and I do luv ya bro, but I disagree.

With the exception of E2 he's damn near dialed in; what you are proposing is throwing in a lot of new protocol variables that could disrupt the apple cart, make it harder to track what is causing what - and in my opinion don't think is needed at this point.

He just needs to add in a little AI to manage his conversion and just keep to what he's doing without adding in more variables that makes the equation harder to interrupt.

I agree with kel on the AI dosage; start out low and measure along the way..small steps from here and...he's almost there.

Well, we agree to disagree ... IMO, you throw a "little AI" into while his E2 is at 90 and heavily converting, the best it will do is probably maintain it at/around that level. Again, IMO, people are basing this because it's a low 800's serum score. However, in bass' case that's irrelevant due to pulling 3.85% on the free due to that 'tanked' SHBG. He's not in the ideal population with other guys who have a 800 score and a 2.3% free ... If some one with a 1,200 score posted on here that they had a 90 E2 score, I'd tell them the same thing ...

The suggested AI protocol I am proposing is 1.25mg/wk, split up. Once upon a time, there were a few guys that kept saying to take 1mg for every 100mg of test - geesh! I've helped dozens over the years here (maybe Forrest & Trees & Bowers32 are just a few out there somewhere), and I have my own personal experiences working closely with qualified doctors.

Take it whatever route you want!

[Vettester]

... And actually what I am proposing is to reduce the cyp protocol by 30%, keep the HCG around the same, and run a short-term AI protocol to get bass dialed to a level that's more ideal. Once achieved, he could probably get away with the .25mg 1x or 2x week. If bass has a 625 serum score, he will still be utilizing more actual bio testosterone than the average guy with a 800 score.

[n00bs]

YOUR e2 is high dorp back your hcg or your test dosage.

I know others on trt who do 250iu e3d and are at top of range for tt.

Try dropping hcg back a bit. When i add it it all goes to e2. The best you can do would be find where you can be at without an ai (not excess androgen to warrent an AI) then go from there adjusting either hCG or test and adding AI again if you want to be on an AI long term.


Me personally taking 250iu HCG e2d gives me a test of 14nmol/L (8-32) and an e2 of 190 (>150) It sucks but hcg for some people can make things a little unpredictable. A little can do alot.

Though you do want it in there for p450 side cleavage enzyme activation.

[bullshark99]

Bass, first awesome Bro, congrats! I must agree with Vette although regarding the anastrozole, I dont think .5 per week will cut it. Ive strugggled like hell to get my E2 dialed in as its been all over the board but @ .5 once a week for a month you may start to present symptoms, personally i would do .5 twice a week, I never had E2 close to as high as you Bro. Twice a week and check in a month and I would bet you a buck you will still be north of 40. Best of luck.

[zaggahamma]

i'm sure you will let us know which route your going to go bass and best of luck

[steroid.com 1]

All I am saying vette is one variable at a time at this point and not that your recommendation is wrong. By throwing in few changes to his protocol all at one time bass won't know what one had the greatest effect.

Most Doc's that I know adhere to the "one variable at time" approach and conservatively at that.

The introduction of the AI is obvious and a starting point; and your dosage may be right or it may not.

bass has spent considerable time in getting to where he's at and he's very meticulous about it; I only think he'd want to know what "specific" change in his protocol will have the greatest effect...nothing more.

[kelkel]

Vette, so basically your proposing to "front-load" the AI for a short period, then BW and maintenance, right? How long would you recommend the front-load for? I'm curious as we don't know if he'll continually rise if nothing changes or is basically peaked now with his E level. That may be the determining factor. Whatever change Bass makes needs to be backed up with BW for a couple months in a row. Very interesting thought processes by both you and GD. It's what makes this place such a great learning environment! Thanks!

Bass, the pressure is now on you sir!

[keep fightin]

like being in a class room taking notes, what good stuff, Bass will need to be meticulous with this. just the kind of thread that makes this the best forum on the web!

[bass]

guys, your responses are much appreciated and gives me lots to think about, i like something from every suggestion and you guys made it so much easier for me to make a decision. my original thought was to reduce my test dose, which means reducing e2 conversion slightly, and because i respond well to AI's 0.5 mg per week with smaller test dose might do the job for me, i really don't like to see my levels out of range especially the free T. so this is where i am going to start,

reduce my test dose from 30 mgs eod to 25 mgs eod,
keep my hCG dose at 250 eod
front load AI first week by taking 0.5 mg twice a week, then maintain at 0.25 twice a week
5 weeks later do blood work

GFA, yes i am still doing SQ injection on the gluts for test and belly for hCG, I'll go back to IM when i am at 1% BF , i g guess that means never!

[bullshark99]

Bass having a plan is obviously the first step, good for you. Might I suggest planning on getting BW done again 5 weeks later for E2. Front loading the anas will drop the level quicker (obviously) but at the 5 week mark you are not gonna know if your level is stabilized or is on the rise from cutting the dose in half. You may come in at 30, for example, and be pleased but it may start to increase from there from the reduced dosage.

[bass]

only the first week I'll do 1 mgs total, then cut back to 0.5 mg ew for 4 weeks then do blood work, i may even go as far as 5-6 weeks if need be but i believe 4 weeks for that low dose is sufficient.

[kelkel]

Sounds like a plan Bass! I'd love to see BW about 3 months in a row to see how it's progressing! Keep us posted bud!

[bass]

will do, the only blood work I'll do is test free, total test, e2 and TSH.

[Vettester]

GD & Kelkel, hopefully I can effectively answer both of your recent posts ...

GD, no problems, I get where you're coming from on taking the "one variable at a time" approach. I wish a few of my doctors in the beginning did that, as it was one extreme to the other.

Here's my mindset on the matter ... I try to encompass all the labs that are available when talking testosterone. If a new member posts up their total serum score, what's the first thing we ask? We ask for their free/bio & SHBG, and other labs. The reason we do this is to really put that total serum score into perspective, and to see where everything as a whole sits.

The reason I disagree a little about bass being nearly "dialed in" is that he is actually quite high for what a lot of doctors I've worked with to call it an effective long-term protocol. Again, I could be way off base here, but my rationale is like I mentioned earlier ... Let's say a not so reputable member posted on here and said, "My total serum is 1,200 and my E2 is 90." Truthfully, would we tell that person that they're not close to being dialed in? Well, bass is this this member (except he's reputable). Yes, he's got the same score as a guy that's 1,200 serum, based on a 2.5% free test ratio, which is quite common and probably about average in most men (GD, correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you're free T is even somewhere in that range?). Where things are getting out of balance with bass is the super low SHBG, which is attributes to the free Testosterone being at 4%, not to mention the bio available reading sitting at 90% (seriously, 90%, that's got to be the top 2 percentile!).

It doesn't come as a shocker that the E2 score is as elevated as it is. It's just MHO that anyone with that high of free & bio needs to be aware that their sides will greater, and the body will be fighting harder to stay in balance due to the amount of actual testosterone in the system. Bass could post a 550 serum score and still would be more androgenic than most guys here posting a 850 score ... That's the only point I'm trying to make whether right or wrong.

Kelk, I don't know if I lean to call it a front load on the AI. What I suggest is that 'enough' AI get into the system for a long enough period of time to reduce the the E2 to an acceptable level. Too much will obviously crash it (we've both been there), not enough will just keep it where it's at, or closely thereof. On my normal protocol, I take .25mg x 2/wk (obvious total of .5mg). My last E2 if I remember was around 23 or so, and I sense that I crept up a bit since then. However, give or take, it's not a bad maintenance protocol.

If .5mg is somewhat of a maintenance dose for me, and my E2 is creeping up a bit (maybe to 30), then I just want to know how it is going lower someone like bass' E2 that is at 90 down to a level that's amicable? To boot, my test assays are not too far off from bass when comparing SHBG, free/bio ...

Regardless, I'm curious and subscribed just as others are. Bass, by no means am I discrediting how far you've come, or where you're at. We are actually very similar in this situation. My SHBG is also very low (approx. 10 to 11 if not mistaken), so I'm in the same boat. I had to really tweak my protocol over the years to accommodate this variable. My objective is to just illustrate other possibilities from a different angle, coming from my experiences and other members that I've been associated with. You have my support no matter what, and ultimately I want you to achieve your optimal balance. If you can achieve it with the new plan you just presented, then excellent, I'll be the first to tip my hat, and to take note that it was an effective method.

Very best to all!

[ecdysone]

For bass: sorry, don't recall your test levels/E2 before...is all you did this time was eliminate the AI?

I wouldn't recommend someone park himself at an E2 > 80, otoh if you're not experiencing any effects then only a gradual adjustment is called for.

As we all know the perfect world is one with as few chemicals in our bodies...maybe more so than achieving "good numbers."

[Shol'va]

And yet another thing you can be happy with is your results of the prostate specific test you got 0.8 which is extremely good imo and if it stays in that range you should be gtg against old prostate cancer crap

[JD250]

I have a question, I often hear about "creeping"....is that a real concern? Wouldn't a certain amount of an AI hold your levels solid(within reason) as long as the protocol doesn't change? The idea of "creeping" makes no sense to me, I understand a little fluctuation, thats normal, but for your e2 to "creep" up and up and up seems illogical.

[Brohim]

Bass did the Iodine help with your TSH level's? Also do you notice more of a "kick" when doing IM injections in larger doses rather than SQ?

[Vettester]

I have a question, I often hear about "creeping"....is that a real concern? Wouldn't a certain amount of an AI hold your levels solid(within reason) as long as the protocol doesn't change? The idea of "creeping" makes no sense to me, I understand a little fluctuation, thats normal, but for your e2 to "creep" up and up and up seems illogical.

JD, I presume you might be referring to what I wrote in my prior post? In my case, in the past, I had administered anywhere from .75mg/wk -to- 1.0mg/wk of Anastrozole. In support of ecdysone's comment about having fewer chemicals in our bodies is best (something like that), I started going with .25mg x 2/wk. It's just speculative without labs, but I sense my E2 has "crept" up since the last round of labs; meaning maybe in my 30's. Sorry if that came across illogical ... It's just means that I might need to adjust my AI a little if my E2 is increasing.

CREEPING present participle of creep (Verb)
Verb: 1) Move slowly and carefully, esp. in order to avoid being heard or noticed: "they were taught how to creep up on an enemy".
2) (of a thing) Move very slowly at a steady pace: "the fog was creeping up from the marsh".

[n00bs]

This is often seen in women on long term treatment, there are theories but nothing definite as to how or why this occurs.

[JD250]

JD, I presume you might be referring to what I wrote in my prior post? In my case, in the past, I had administered anywhere from .75mg/wk -to- 1.0mg/wk of Anastrozole. In support of ecdysone's comment about having fewer chemicals in our bodies is best (something like that), I started going with .25mg x 2/wk. It's just speculative without labs, but I sense my E2 has "crept" up since the last round of labs; meaning maybe in my 30's. Sorry if that came across illogical ... It's just means that I might need to adjust my AI a little if my E2 is increasing.

CREEPING present participle of creep (Verb)
Verb: 1) Move slowly and carefully, esp. in order to avoid being heard or noticed: "they were taught how to creep up on an enemy".
2) (of a thing) Move very slowly at a steady pace: "the fog was creeping up from the marsh".

Not just your comment but I've heard it mentioned before.....probably just semantics but I picture e2 creeping as something that slowly keeps going higher and higher, it just seems to me that it would only move up a little and then stabalize....for instance if Bass' e2 levels are at 90 I would presume that they are stable right there and the introduction of ANY AI would lower those levels and stabalize at whatever levels they happen to settle at and as long as he didn't change anything else those levels would remain right there, within reason. Not argueing any certain point here just trying to wrap my head around how AIs work in relation to a stable protocol.