questions for the diet gurus! i feel this could get heated from all the brosciencers!

[dooie]

okay, let me get this straight,
carbs are used as energy correct? and unused carbs will be stored as glycogen and synthesized into fat? also
protein is used for tissue synthesis, so excess protein will be used as a energy source and some unused protein will be stored as fat am i right?
now the body prefers to use CHO as the predominant energy source, so if there is a major surplus of protein, the carbs will be used first, meaning the excess protein will be stored as fat?

some of you guys are consuming over 2g/lb of bodyweight in protein whereas i can only find research in no benefits in muscle protein synthesis at that high level, the research is sitting around 1.6-2.3g/Kg of bodyweight thats under double!

so some of u guys are consuming, say ur a 220lb male, you are consuming ~210g of protein more than needed, thats 840 unused cals!!
remember im asking questions here, i would like a discussion on this!

or does all this just fall under hitting your macros for the day?

so my question is, as to what point does excess protein and carbs become unused? and what are the side effects of such a high protein diet? research suggests alot about the kidneys etc!

also we have low carb diets (some very low) so dont we go into the state of glycogenisis and the body will increase oxidation of protein to create more carbs anyway??

one more thought, when you are a novice and just starting lifting weights, this is the time in your life, that your muscle mass increases dramatically at the fastest rate in your life (apart from adolescence, steroids etc), so you would require more protein at this stage in life as to someone just maintaining body mass or trying to bulk (natty) it has taken me a year to put on about 6kg LBM, i put that on more than that in the first 3 months when i started training. so wont novices need more protein/kg of bodyweight than an experienced lifter, as the experienced lifter will not grow at half the rate the neby would?

ok of the top of my head thats all i have to ask, id really like some discussion on this!
cheers

[gbrice75]

okay, let me get this straight,
carbs are used as energy correct?

Correct

and unused carbs will be stored as glycogen and synthesized into fat?

Carbs that are stored as glycogen aren't considered 'unused'. i.e. carbs are meant to be stored as glycogen as a fast fuel resource. When glycogen stores are full, and energy exceeds energy demand, excess carbs are stored as bodyfat.

protein is used for tissue synthesis, so excess protein will be used as a energy source and some unused protein will be stored as fat am i right?

Protein can be used as an energy source but it's not preferred. On average, our bodies use roughly 5% of protein as energy. Any excess calories can be stored as fat, regardless of where those calories are derived from (carbs, proteins, fat). Having said that, protein is the least likely to be stored.

now the body prefers to use CHO as the predominant energy source, so if there is a major surplus of protein, the carbs will be used first, meaning the excess protein will be stored as fat?

Carbs are used to fuel activity (energy), protein is used for a ton of bodily functions, building tissue being a major one. Why would the protein be considered excess?

some of you guys are consuming over 2g/lb of bodyweight in protein whereas i can only find research in no benefits in muscle protein synthesis at that high level, the research is sitting around 1.6-2.3g/Kg of bodyweight thats under double!

Can you cite your research? What are these sources? Most 'regular' people aren't consuming 2g/lb of bodyweight (btw, I base it off of LBM, not total bodyweight, but i'm digressing) - but this is a bodybuilding board. Our protein requirements differ greatly from the 'regular' people.

so some of u guys are consuming, say ur a 220lb male, you are consuming ~210g of protein more than needed, thats 840 unused cals!!
remember im asking questions here, i would like a discussion on this!

Again, this is subjective and based on the individual. But suffice it to say 2g/lb of bodyweight isn't extreme - IMO it's a BIT excessive, but not extreme. 1.5-2g/lb of LBM is my general guideline.

or does all this just fall under hitting your macros for the day?

Not sure exactly what you're asking here... but VERY GENERALLY speaking... if your body burns 2000 calories in a 24 hour period and you consume 2000 calories in that same 24 hour period, there should be very little concern with regards to storing bodyfat.

so my question is, as to what point does excess protein and carbs become unused?

At the point where your body cannot use either, at any given time. I'm curious as to why you're leaving fat out of the equation? Fat is more readily stored than either of the other 2 macro nutrients.

and what are the side effects of such a high protein diet? research suggests alot about the kidneys etc!

There is just as much research suggesting there is no adverse effects of a high protein diet in HEALTHY kidneys. It depends on what you read.

also we have low carb diets (some very low) so dont we go into the state of glycogenisis and the body will increase oxidation of protein to create more carbs anyway??

Why would it when we have plenty of dietary fat and bodyfat stores? If we're eating a very low carb/low fat diet, then yes - and that would be pretty stupid IMO.

one more thought, when you are a novice and just starting lifting weights, this is the time in your life, that your muscle mass increases dramatically at the fastest rate in your life (apart from adolescence, steroids etc), so you would require more protein at this stage in life as to someone just maintaining body mass or trying to bulk (natty)

Not necessarily. It's simply a matter of your muscles responding to a completely foreign stimulus. Protein intake wouldn't need to be any higher than the same person 3 years down the road (changes in body composition aside)

it has taken me a year to put on about 6kg LBM, i put that on more than that in the first 3 months when i started training. so wont novices need more protein/kg of bodyweight than an experienced lifter, as the experienced lifter will not grow at half the rate the neby would?

Nope. I understand your logic, but it's flawed. Our bodily response to a completely new and foreign stimulus is what causes 'newb gains', higher protein intake won't necessarily increase gains. Lower protein intake MAY decrease them however. Bottom line is protein intake should be sufficient in either case.

ok of the top of my head thats all i have to ask, id really like some discussion on this!
cheers

Thanks, I enjoyed this one... you're an inquisitive mind, like me!

[--->>405<<---]

interesting topic(s)!

from what ive read excess macronutrients are stored as bodyfat in the following order:
1. fat
2. carbs
3. protein

based on this knowledge and experience ive found specifically concerning myself protein to be the best macronutrient to have an abundance of.. depending on ur goals an abundance of a specific macro may or may not be necessary.. for example:

when cutting i have had good results @2200cals.. i prefer low carb approach because keeping carbs at 20% or less of total cals produces a good environment for fat mobilization (which is necessary for oxidation).. this still leaves 80% of my cals to do something with.. knowing fat is #1 for being stored as fat i keep it at 20% as well.. this still leaves 60% total cals to be accounted for.. which has to come from protein cuz thats the only macro left.. 60% of 2200 is 1320cals which is 330g protein.. at its lowest my lbm was 166lbs.. which x 2 would be 332g protein..

to say that protein is only useful to a certain gram amount based on LBM and the rest is considered "unused calories" i believe to be inaccurate.. your body may not be able to synthesize the extra protein into muscle but the cals are still available for energy IMO.. all this will depend on the individual as well as workout style and carbs and fat amts ingested (depleted muscle glycogen, amt of dietery fat available for energy, amt of bodyfat available for energy, depletion oriented workouts vs hypertrophy workouts, cardio, etc..)

while im a firm believer in establishing macros to be hit i think they have to be calculated based on context of caloric surplus or caloric deficit depending on individual goals.. ive never built macros based solely on grams per pound of bodyweight or grams per pound of LBM.. i first come up with a caloric amount to be ingested based specifically on goals and then manipulate macros to suit those goals..

to address ur question about protein (in low carb diets) being converted into glucose for energy i believe this occurs in the liver and the impact on blood glucose levels is fairly insignificant.. as i said earlier a person typically would use low carbs for cutting.. the effectiveness of this on cutting is primarily related to fat mobilization.. many factors come into play when mobilizing fat but the big one to avoid is the release of insulin into the blood.. the presence of insulin in the blood stops the body's ability to mobilize fat for oxidation in its tracks! insulin is a response to elevated blood glucose which is caused as a result of carbohydrate ingestion mostly and not protein.. the extent of blood glucose going up will be dependent on the type of carb ingested (high GI or low GI) and also what its ingested with.. protein and fiber actually have a negative impact on the gly***ic load of a meal meaning that if u eat a bagel and a chicken breast ur blood glucose level will rise less than if u eat the bagel all by itself.. to me this is evidence of the positive impact of protein on the diet specifically as it relates to cutting and maintaining low blood glucose levels to encourage fat cell mobilization..

personally to answer ur question: " so my question is, as to what point does excess protein and carbs become unused?" IMO the answer is they become unused when the combined amount of macros ingested exceeds the caloric needs of the body.. i dont think if a guy can cut on 2000 cals and he eats 450g protein and no carbs he will gain fat simply because he cant use all the protein ingested for muscle growth.. i think this is difft for each individual.. i always count calories first and macros second..IMO when it comes to prevention of fat storage i would have an abundance of the macros in the reverse order as mentioned above..

1. protein
2. carbs
3. fat

however one must also take into consideration the apparent anomaly of keto style diets a good example that there is no sure fire one correct way to do things to the exclusion of all others

[--->>405<<---]

to address specifically the effect of protein not only on kidneys but also the liver i can attest to (out of personal experience) having normal liver and kidney function at the beginning of my 8month cut.. the reason i kow this is because i am on TRT.. after 7 months of running low carbs with high protein my liver and kidney function elevated to levels high enuff to cause my TRT doc to suggest i go to my PCP for further testing.. i ignored this based on logic and from what ive read about protein impact on the function of these 2 organs.. i went on vacation and abandoned my diet completely for an entire week.. after getting home went back to 40/40/20 where previously while cycling carbs on some days i was getting 80% of my total cals from protein and zero from "starchy" carbs.. after 3 weeks of 40/40/20 i had more bloodwork done.. came back "perfect for liver" and "only slightly elevated but no cause for worry" (to quote my doctor) for kidneys..

so based on this yes i think high protein over long periods are tough on the liver and kidneys! especially in conjunction with no carbs or more specifically carb cycle diets..

[Far from massive]

I don't know much about diet (compared to Gbrice and the like) however in addition to the points he made I also feel that

Most all of the diets that list gms of protein per lb of body mass are talking the average person at said body wieght. These people do not have nearly as much muscle mass as a bodybuilder. For example a 250 lb average male will not have the amount of muscle as a 185 lb fit body builder. Also these are the amounts of protein needed to maintain a given wieght, someone who wieghs 200 lbs trying to gain large amounts of lean mass will need far more protein than someone 200 lbs trying to maintain that wieght. In addition to this what you need is a certain amount of calories when you eat much less fat than the average person if you keep the carb intake the same you really need to increase the protein by a vast amount to keep the calorie count the same.


As for the post by 405 I agree and feel the damage done by large amounts of protein are mainly a function of low carbs, insufficient water intake, getting carbs from liver taxing sources like milk products and lack of liver support. I have had HepC for probably 20 yrs and eat a large amount of protein ( not crazy large but a whole lot more than the average 200lb person) and my values have steadily improved since I started high protein low fat diet. As far as Keto goes yeah I would avoid it like the plaque.

[dooie]

thanks for the replies guys!! i will get back to you with articles and answers to your questions but i am studying for finals atm and dont have a whole lot of time, but one more question for you:
is this true?
Substrate utilisation is affected by the intensity and duration of physical activity
- Low intensity exercise is primarily dependent on fats
- High intensity exercise is primarily dependent on carbohydrates
does that mean one burns more fat doing lower intensity exercise?

[dooie]

or CONSIDER.... Total energy expenditure, high intensity exercise may burn more fat even though the relative % fat-carb utilisation is lower.

[Turkish Juicer]

OP sent me a PM, kindly asking me to contribute to this thread. I have to say, after reading the responses of other knowledgeable members above that my contribution will have to be limited simply due to how comprehensive and informing those responses have been, which is no surprise to me considering the profiles of the responders.

I would like to make a couple of points, however:

1. Excessive protein intake may equal to excessive calories on paper, however, studies show that unused protein is simply oxidized, as opposed to being converted to first sugar and then stored as fat.

2. Protein has nil effect on blood sugar, meaning that even if it were to be over-consumed during a cutting cycle per se, this wouldn't be a problem in terms of fat mobilization and hence depleting of fat reserves.

3. Clinical research conducted on diabetics* show that protein does NOT slow the absorption of carbohydrate, its effect is nil. The idea that protein intake will slow the absorption of carbohydrates and hence lowering their GI is amongst the top myths of nutrition and persists to be so in our day.

* Does protein slow the absorption of carbohydrate?

In the study by Nuttall et al., when protein and glucose were combined, the peak response was similar to the peak response of glucose alone. That is, adding protein to carbohydrate did not slow the absorption or peak of the glucose response.

...

The effect of adding protein (25 g) or adding fat (5 or 10 g) to breakfasts containing 60 g carbohydrate in 24 subjects with type 2 diabetes was also studied by Nordt et al. Glucose concentrations were similar after the three meals, but after the protein-enriched meal, the postprandial insulin and glucagon responses were significantly increased. Neither varying the ratio of fat to protein nor increasing the amount of fat affected postprandial glucose values. The late reduction in postprandial glucose observed by Nuttall et al. with the addition of protein was not seen in this study. This may be due to the fact that in this study more normal amounts of protein were added.

How adding large amounts of protein or fat to a standard lunch would affect postmeal glucose responses and insulin needs in subjects with type 1 diabetes was studied by Peters and Davidson. In 12 individuals who by the use of a biostator were eugly***ic, a standard lunch (450 kcal) was compared to protein-added (200 kcal) or a fat-added (200 kcal) lunch. After the fat-added lunch (2 Tbsp margarine), the peak glucose response was delayed, but the total glucose response was unchanged. After the protein-added lunch (7 oz turkey), the early glucose response was similar to the standard lunch, but late glucose response (2–5 hours) was slightly increased, and the late insulin requirement was greater by 3–4 U. This late insulin requirement (2–5 hours) was statistically significant, although the total insulin requirement over the 5 hours was not.

Adding protein did not delay the peak glucose response, but whether the addition of protein to a meal or snack prevents late-onset hypogly***ia cannot be answered by this study. The study ended at 5 hours, at which time glucose levels were similar after all three meals.

Thus, the carbohydrate content of the meal is the main determinant of the peak glucose response. Although this may vary depending on the gly***ic response to the carbohydrate, it appears not to be affected by the protein content. Fat delays the peak but not the total glucose response. However, patients often report that when they eat large amounts of certain foods, such as pizza, meat, or fat, their blood glucose responses are elevated even if they keep their carbohydrate consistent.The reason remains a mystery, but this does mean that if patients have documented this response to certain foods, they will probably need to adjust their premeal short- or rapid-acting insulin or eat smaller servings of these foods.

[--->>405<<---]

^^ interesting study turkish.. i wonder how this would come out if tested on regular people.. i suppose i could get a blood sugar monitor and test myself having oats for breakfast all by themselves and then again with an omelette..

according to wikipedia:
The gly***ic effect of foods depends on a number of factors such as the type of starch (amylose versus amylopectin), physical entrapment of the starch molecules within the food, fat and protein content of the food and organic acids or their salts in the meal — adding vinegar, for example, will lower the GI. The presence of fat or soluble dietary fiber can slow the gastric emptying rate, thus lowering the GI. In general, coarse, grainy breads with higher amounts of fiber have a lower GI value than white breads.[6] However, most breads made with 100% wholewheat or wholemeal flour have a GI similar to white bread.[7] Many brown breads are treated with enzymes to soften the crust, which makes the starch more accessible (high GI).
While adding fat or protein will lower the gly***ic response to a meal, the relative differences remain. That is, with or without additions, there is still a higher blood glucose curve after a high GI bread than after a low-GI bread such as pumpernickel.

[dooie]

Another quick little question based of what Turkish posted in another thread, but would like to know!

Turkish said, 'When cutting, meaning you will be creating a calorie deficit, your body will be able to burn more fat if the gap in between meals is considerably long, which equally goes for your PWO meal too; that is, if you don't drink a PWO shake and eat 2 hrs after your workout, your body will continue to mobilize and burn fat for those extra 2 hrs. This, on the other hand, would be a pretty bad idea for bulking'

And said again! One true advantage of CHO intake along with protein right after lifting and/or an intense cardio session that follows would be suppression of the major catabolic hormone, cortisol.

So my question is, is cortisol really a problem for us? How much does it rise during and after a workout? Even if it does rise, is it really going to be that bad?

[gbrice75]

Another quick little question based of what Turkish posted in another thread, but would like to know!

Turkish said, 'When cutting, meaning you will be creating a calorie deficit, your body will be able to burn more fat if the gap in between meals is considerably long, which equally goes for your PWO meal too; that is, if you don't drink a PWO shake and eat 2 hrs after your workout, your body will continue to mobilize and burn fat for those extra 2 hrs. This, on the other hand, would be a pretty bad idea for bulking'

And said again! One true advantage of CHO intake along with protein right after lifting and/or an intense cardio session that follows would be suppression of the major catabolic hormone, cortisol.

So my question is, is cortisol really a problem for us? How much does it rise during and after a workout? Even if it does rise, is it really going to be that bad?

First, cortisol catches a bad rap and is considered the 'big bad wolf' of anabolism. While it's true that cortisol is in part responsible for increased bodyfat and LBM loss, it is also a vital hormone. DHEA has been shown to blunt cortisol elevation and/or it's effects. We just need to be careful not to throw off our balance TOO much, like people looking to completely shutdown their cortisol production, lol!

To answer your question - I don't know how much it rises during/after workout - this will vary from person to person. Personally, I wouldn't worry all that much. Just control the factors you CAN control that contribute to cortisol elevation - stress, lack of sleep, etc.